• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Where is Jesus?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Residential Bob, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    351
    +272
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Ditto.

    That aside, do you see what the apostles actually said to their contemporaries? Examples:

    Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son; (Heb 1:1-2)​

    In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away; (Heb 8:13)​

    You have laid up treasure in the last days; (Jas 5:3)​

    He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you; (1 Pt 1:20)​

    For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; (1 Pt 4:17)​

    Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. (1 Jn 2:18)
    These last days; is becoming obsolete and old; have laid up; was made manifest; it is time; it is the last hour. These expressions are in the present and past tenses.

    Jesus said to his disciples that some of them would still be alive when he returned (Mt 16:28). Again, this is clearly a first-century reference.

    Many of the eschatological passages of the New Testament are in the future tense, obviously written before the end of the age in 70 AD. Futurists fixate on these passages and apply them to their own generations. This is not hermeneutics; it's wishful thinking.
     
  2. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    351
    +272
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    He returns twice? Is that in the Bible?
     
  3. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    351
    +272
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    You suggest that the two witnesses are two individuals.

    The Bible suggests otherwise, that they're two assemblies.
     
  4. AllDayFaith

    AllDayFaith New Member

    90
    +57
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    We as believers have to be patient and wait on God's time. He wants to give every person a chance to turn from their ways and follow Him. God has not finished His great work and you saying it should have happened shows impatience.
     
  5. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

    374
    +188
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Bob, we are miles apart in the way that we interpret Scripture. Let's leave it at that, and agree to disagree.
     
  6. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +1,467
    Christian
    Private
    "nations" in greek is "ethnos", this word is not talking about political boundaries but rather people groups. Today there are thousands of unreached and unengaged people groups who have yet to hear the gospel. The end has not come because the gospel is not strong enough in many parts of the world to be sufficient testimony to all people groups.

    Paul uses "world" colloquially and would be referring to the known world as he knows it but not the entire world as we know it. Mt 24:14 can be said to use similar language of only addressing the known world or the Roman world but withholding the gospel to the "outside world" would actually be inconsistent with the gospel itself.

    John 3:16 says "God so loved the word...." what "world" is this? do you think it's "God so loved the Roman world" or do you think this word stretches to all people groups that inhabit even the unknown places of the world? if the latter than it would be consistent to interpret Mt 24:14 in like manner.
     
  7. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    351
    +272
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Correct. Jesus and Paul are referencing Palestine and the Levant 2,000 years ago.

    The gospel was preached in the world 2,000 years ago.

    And so to my mind, the gospel is not weak; it is quite strong enough.
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,610
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    So you are saying Paul was wrong to claim they have?
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,610
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Nor would they:
    Scripture fully and uniformly teaches that some would be faithful and others unfaithful (Romans 2:5-9; Mt 25:1-13; Lk 13:24-30; 1 Cor 3:12-15).

    As the angel also plainly states:

    Revelation 22:10-11
    And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."
     
  10. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

    +812
    United States
    Christian
    In Relationship
    He came in judgment as He said He would. I am sure you are aware of the many circumstances in the OT where God came in judgment. Here is the judgment of Babylon very similar language used for the judgment of Jerusalem.

    Isaiah
    Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
    Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
    To lay the land desolate;
    And He will destroy its sinners from it.
    For the stars of heaven and their constellations
    Will not give their light;
    The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
    And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

    Mark
    “But in those days, following that distress,
    “ ‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
    “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.


    It is also good to note that the Lord often came in the clouds in the OT it is a sign
    of all power and glory.

    Isaiah
    “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.



     
  11. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +27,755
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    As long as they didn't know what it meant :p
    I believe we can use the example of what happened to the Jews in 70 when they were given 40 yrs to repent from the time Jesus started preaching.

    Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread

    Mark 1:15
    And saying, "Has been filled the Time, and has-neared the Kingdom of the GOD.
    Be ye reforming/repenting<3340>! and be ye believing! in the Good-Message.

    Mat 3:7
    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
    “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath?
    Mat 12:34
    “Brood of vipers
    ! How can you, being evil, speak good things?
    For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
    Mat 23:33
    “Serpents, brood of vipers
    !
    How can you escape the condemnation of the gehenna?

    Luke 21:23

    “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
    For there will be great distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.
    36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong<2729> to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming,
    and to stand before the Son of the Man. [Daniel 12:1]

    1 Thessalonians 5:3
    For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape<1628>.

    Romans 2:
    23 Who in law are boasting through the transgression of the Law, the God thou are dishonoring
    24 'For the name of the God is being blasphemed in the nations' because of ye' according as it has been written
    [Psalm 74:10 Revelation 16:11]

    James 5:6
    Ye condemn, ye Murder<5407> the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

    Revelation 9:21
    And not they repent/reform<3340> out of their Murders<5408>, nor out from their sorceries,...........
    Revelation 16:11 [Romans 2:23-24]
    And they blaspheme the GOD of the heaven out of the miseries of them, and out of the sores of them.
    And not they repent/reform<3340>out of the works of them.


    https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
    "..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
    ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


    [​IMG]

    ...................................
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,610
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    I guess you missed what these guys said then?:

    Origen - Against Celsus | John | Matthew "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem."

    Chrysostom - Homilies on Matthew 24 "Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it."

    Chrysostom - St. Chrysostom's Liturgy "Having in remembrance, therefore, this saving commandment and all those things which have come to pass for us: the Cross, the Grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the Sitting at the right hand, and the second and glorious Coming"

    It is misguided to claim the "entire early church missed it, nor acknowledged preterist truth"

    The ECFs recognized:

    (1) that the great tribulation is passed, transpiring at AD 66-70
    (2) that AD 70 involved a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment

    So, while they did not establish a biblically consistent preterism, they were far more preteristic in their understanding of eschatology than most modern futurists. The fact is that the ECFs had their hands full with formulating a consistent Christology (the nature of Christ and the Trinity), and didn't spend as much time formulating an orthodox, systematic eschatology. We know that the ECFs had mostly assigned Matthew 24 to the past, (In fact, if you take all of the ECF's different preteristic beliefs and cobbled them together as one, you basically arrive at the Full preterist position) and the Protestant Reformers had a majority view that all Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century.

    That's an erroneous statement. It is the apostles that placed the fulfillment of most or all of Matthew 24 in their generation (Matt 24:34/23:36), and they consistently spoke of the fall of Jerusalem as the imminent day of judgment of their times (Lk 21:22, Mt 23:33-24:34; Mt 21:40-45; Lk 19:40-44). This was the desolation of which it was said: "the end of all things is at hand" (1 Pet 4:7); "in a very short while he who is coming will come an will not delay" (Heb 10:37); "the time is short" (1 Cor 7:29); "there are now many antichrists by which we know it is the final hour" (1 Jn 2:18-19); "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show...the things which must soon take place...for the time is at hand" (Rev 1:1,3); "the coming of the Lord is near...behold, the Judge is standing right at the door (Jas 5:8-9); "salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is near" (Rom 13:11-12); "this generation shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled" (Mt 24:34).

    It was the biblically-and-historically illiterate Irvingites and Darbyites of the early 1800s that created the fanciful and superstitous eschatology popularized in the Left Behind series--including the infamous "pre-trib Rapture" mythology.

    Your #1 reason for rejecting the preterist view on the TIMING of the return of Christ appears to be your desire to "stand on the testimony of fallible church tradition."

    In Contrast, I stand upon infallible Holy Scripture, and Apostolic testimony as to the timing of the return of Christ, and that means the first-century.

    (And yes, the Irony of a Catholic admonishing a Protestant to "stick to scripture over Church tradition" is not lost on me)
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  13. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

    +812
    United States
    Christian
    In Relationship
    He is sitting at the right hand of the Father.
     
  14. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    351
    +272
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Yes, I'm aware of God's presence in the clouds.
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +27,755
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Hell R B.
    How much of the Olivet Discourse do you believe is fulfilled in Revelation? [I believe at least most of both are fulfilled, but now all.]

    Luke's Jerusalem/Temple discourse is my favorite Gospel to use with Revelation

    Matt 24 and Mark 13 use "clouds" and Luke 21 uses "cloud"

    Luke 21:27
    And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in a cloud with power and glory, much. [Revelation 14:14]

    Acts 1:9
    And these things saying, of them looking He was taken/lifted up, and a cloud did receive Him up from their sight/eyes

    Revelation 14:14
    And I saw and behold! a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like-as Son of Man, having upon the head of Him a crown of gold and a sharp sickle in His hands. [Luke 21:27]

    I am of the view these 2 witnesses might be the 144,000 from Judah and Israel, because of Hebrews 12 which proclaims a "vast cloud of witnesses". Lot of Hebrew OT symbology. Thoughts?

    Revelation 11:12
    And they heard a great Voice out of the heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!"
    and they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and observed them the enemies of them [Acts 1:9]

    Hebrews 12:1
    For the also we so vast a cloud of witnesses, having encompassing to us, impediment putting off every also the well standing sin thru endurance we may be racing the lying before us contest.

    Peter and Jude also refer to clouds as people......

    2 Peter 2:17
    These are wells without water, clouds
    carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
    Jude 1:12
    These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[fn] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
     
  16. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    351
    +272
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    All of it.
     
  17. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    351
    +272
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Or maybe not in Revelation per se, but certainly by the time the temple fell.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,610
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Yet In the Revelation, we see the Glorified Jesus, From Heaven, promising His Thief's coming would befall the real first-century peoples of Sardis:

    Revelation 3:3
    3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

    Was He merely issuing Empty Threats to them?
     
  19. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

    +771
    Baptist
    Married
    In Revelations, John was told: the number of human in the Heaven is NOT enough. That is why Jesus has not come yet.
    All your quotes WILL BE satisfied in a short future. Be patient.
     
  20. Residential Bob

    Residential Bob Active Member

    351
    +272
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    How many Revelations are you talking about?
     
Loading...