Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[Major1]

I wouldn't bother to reply, but blatant mis representation of what I said, cannot pass unrefuted.
those who remain....is clear, there will be those who survive the Great Tribulation. But it will only be those who have kept strong in their faith in God during the terrible testing time of the GT.
Those who kept the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, are the group of Chrstians who will be taken to a place of safety on earth for the 1260 days of the GT.

Your confusion of Stephen and Philip shows how seriously off track you are in your knowledge of Bible truths.
We question your ability to understand scripture.

Thank you for the correction. Of course it could be said that MOST people would understand that I meant Stephen and not Philip and would refrain from such childish and personal comments against a fellow Christian.

It is clear however that you are not on that level.

YES. I meant to say STEPHEN and not Philip and I apologize if that caused in confusion to anyone.

 

[Major1]

Can you make the contextual exegesis of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 verses by verses and explain to us where you do see in those verses the text saying that the things mentioned ie[the resurrection of the dead believers ,the changing of the believers still alive and the caught up to meet Jesus in the CLOUDS in the AIR] will happen 7 years before the Coming of Jesus ?

No sir I can not. Never said I could.

What I can do is give you my understanding. It is actually a waste of my time to do so for you, but what the heck. Maybe the 4th time is the charm.

Maybe someone else reading this will be helped, only the Lord knows.

First of all, it is my understanding that the Bible predicts the Rapture, telling us that it will be unpredictable, imminent, without warning, and will be visible only to THE SAINTS.

The strongest evidence in the Bible of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture (that is, the Biblical doctrine that Jesus Christ will return FOR the saints BEFORE the 7-year Tribulation period) is the PROPHESIED ELEMENT OF SURPRISE!

We all know that the Lord Jesus taught that NO MAN KNOWS THE TIME of His return.

Matthew 24:44.........
“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

Luke 12:40.............
“Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.”

So then, anything other than a Pre-tribulation Rapture (in time of event) totally REMOVES this Biblical element of surprise.

Now I will grant you that the Rapture is one of the more difficult doctrines in the Bible to discern, simply because it requires a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of the chronological order of prophetic events.

God created time as a mean of letting His children know what will happen next on His prophetic time line. The Lord calls us His friends, as He clarified in John 15:15........
“Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.”

The Lord as our friend is telling us what He is going to do in the future. What an awesome Savior!

For YOU to understand why there is a 7 year period of time requires that YOU study the Tribulation Period that Jeremiah wrote about concerning Israel.

Then YOU do the work as needed to understand Daniel's 70th Week prophecy.

Now I would like to ask you humbly and with all due respect a real simple question.
Some of the greatest men of God of the past 150 years all believed in a PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE! Harry A. Ironside, John R. Rice, Jack Hyles, Bob Jones Sr., Lee Roberson, Oliver B. Greene, R.A. Torrey, Dwight Moody, Lester Roloff, Curtis Hutson, Billy Sunday, W.A. Criswell, Charles C. Ryrie, Raymond Barber, Billy Graham, J. Vernon Magee, Edward Dobson, Charles Feinburg, Edward Hinson, John Walvoord and others all concluded and taught a Pretribulation Rapture of the saints!!! Were they all wrong on this Bible doctrine and YOU are correct?

 

[Postvieww]

Same here my friend. We disagree on this and even it seems on what the Scriptures say.

“God will shout and those who have died in Christ will have their bodies rise from the dust, then they will be united with their spirits. Then we Christians who are alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye."

My understanding then is that we all will be in heaven with the Trinity. We will then return with Him 7 years later.

I agree completely that in the time to come, Jesus will rule and reign on the earth. Not because YOU say that but because that is what the Scriptures actually do say.

Psalm 2:6-9 —
David says the Messiah will reign over “the very ends of the earth” from Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:1-4 —
Isaiah says that “in the last days” the Messiah will reign from Mount Zion in Jerusalem and the entire world will experience peace.

Jeremiah 33:6-18 —
A day will come when the Lord will regather the dispersed of both Judah and Israel and will save a great remnant. At that time the Lord “will cause a rigthteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.”

Joel 3:14-17,21 —
Joel says that following the battle of Armageddon (verses 14-16), the Lord will dwell “in Zion, My holy mountain.” He repeats this in verse 21. And in verse 17 He identifies Zion as the city of Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:5 —
John sees a vision in which a sun clothed woman (Israel) gives birth to a male child (Jesus) “who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.”

Revelation 20:4,6 —
John says that after the return of Jesus to the earth, He will reign with His saints (“those to whom judgment has been given”) for a thousand years.

It is my understanding that the Bride of Christ is a city in which the Church will have its habitation and Christians who make up the church, will be able to go where they want to go. The new City and the Bride of Christ are one in the same as it seems they are synominous.

Rev. 21:2........
"Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Rev. 21:9.......
"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”

Now, if we remove the doctrinal teaching of "Implied Truth" from the Scriptures we have no Biblical exegesis of the Trinity, the Rapture, even the word Bible itself is not found in the Scriptures. There is actually no explanation given of God in the Scriptures.

Genesis 1:1....."In the beginning, GOD".

No explanation is given of His existence beyond "Implied Truth". He is just there, GOD. It is actually an assumption, is it not?

Then if we apply that to Jesus being on the earth and ruling literally, based on Revelation 20, when we then read Rev. 20 we find something very interesting. There is no mention of Jesus being on earth in Revelation 20.

Implied Truth says that He is, but if we go by the strict letter of the word itself, it does not say so.

IMO Rev. 20:4 says...........
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Actually I am not arguing with you on this as we seem to be agreeing because I believe that Jesus will be on the earth, and we will be with Him because IMO that is what the context of all the Scriptures say to me.

But as you can see from those who post here that many go out of their way to try and disprove something based on the "letter" of strict interpretation instead of "Implied Truth".

Having said that, then there are those who will argue that there is no need for an earthly throne for Jesus.

Doesn't the Bible say literally that Jesus’ throne is in heaven????

Isaiah 66:1........
“Thus says the Lord, ‘Heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me?’”

Dose't Acts 2:29-36 tell us that Jesus occupies David’s throne in heaven?????????

Looking at Hebrews 12:2 again, what is it that I posted for you?

We find that Jesus “sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

Implied truth? An interesting concept, I understand what you are saying in your post and would counter for something to be implied there would have to be something in the context to base that implication on or IMHO it will just be another opinion not an implication. It seems you are lessening the importance of “strict interpretation” or at least in this case ruling it out altogether.

I disagree with your assessment of Revelation 20 for the following reasons .


1. Rev 19:14-21 Jesus comes to this earth and smites the nations that places with Him here on this earth, with no implied return to heaven.


2. Rev 20:1-2 The angels comes down from heaven to this earth to lay hold on the dragon.


3. Rev 20:4 places Christ on earth reigning for 1000 years

4. Rev 20:9 has the camp of the saints on earth, I realize you agree on this point, I am pointing out the context IMHO clearly put Jesus on earth by implication as you say, but that implication is based on context ant text not our desires.

Now let’s apply this same standard to 1 Thessalonians 4 and John 14. It is my contention there is nothing in the context or text to “imply” a trip back to heaven. I agree with you, that is your “understanding” and was at one time mine as well, but you have failed to show where it is implied.





Yes the Bible does say Jesus’s throne is currently in heaven but when He comes back to this earth that will no longer be the case, Zechariah 14, Revelation 20:4, Revelation 21:3, Revelation 11:15,





Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:



Major1 from post #1035

You see, all 3 of you have to MAKE those verses say what you need for them to say to make your false theology work for you. That is the classic operation of false teachers.

False teachers, is a serious charge! I believe you truly believe what you believe just as I do.

 

[Major1]

Implied truth? An interesting concept, I understand what you are saying in your post and would counter for something to be implied there would have to be something in the context to base that implication on or IMHO it will just be another opinion not an implication. It seems you are lessening the importance of “strict interpretation” or at least in this case ruling it out altogether.

I disagree with your assessment of Revelation 20 for the following reasons .


1. Rev 19:14-21 Jesus comes to this earth and smites the nations that places with Him here on this earth, with no implied return to heaven.


2. Rev 20:1-2 The angels comes down from heaven to this earth to lay hold on the dragon.


3. Rev 20:4 places Christ on earth reigning for 1000 years

4. Rev 20:9 has the camp of the saints on earth, I realize you agree on this point, I am pointing out the context IMHO clearly put Jesus on earth by implication as you say, but that implication is based on context ant text not our desires.

Now let’s apply this same standard to 1 Thessalonians 4 and John 14. It is my contention there is nothing in the context or text to “imply” a trip back to heaven. I agree with you, that is your “understanding” and was at one time mine as well, but you have failed to show where it is implied.





Yes the Bible does say Jesus’s throne is currently in heaven but when He comes back to this earth that will no longer be the case, Zechariah 14, Revelation 20:4, Revelation 21:3, Revelation 11:15,





Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:



Major1 from post #1035

You see, all 3 of you have to MAKE those verses say what you need for them to say to make your false theology work for you. That is the classic operation of false teachers.

False teachers, is a serious charge! I believe you truly believe what you believe just as I do.

Implied truth? An interesting concept, I understand what you are saying in your post and would counter for something to be implied there would have to be something in the context to base that implication on or IMHO it will just be another opinion not an implication. It seems you are lessening the importance of “strict interpretation” or at least in this case ruling it out altogether.

I do not believe in any way that a man of your perceived education and ability has not been exposed to the idea of "Implied Truth".

If Implied Truth is not an acceptable element of teaching, how would we believe in the Trinity?
Where would we locate and find the word Trinity????

I am not lessening the importance of anything. I am simply suggesting to you that the process of Implied truth is valid.

 

[Riberra]

No sir I can not. Never said I could.

What I can do is give you my understanding. It is actually a waste of my time to do so for you, but what the heck. Maybe the 4th time is the charm.

Maybe someone else reading this will be helped, only the Lord knows.

We all know that the Lord Jesus taught that NO MAN KNOWS THE TIME of His return.

Matthew 24:44.........
“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

Luke 12:40.............
“Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.”


First of all, it is my understanding that the Bible predicts the Rapture, telling us that it will be unpredictable, imminent, without warning,

The Bible tell us that no one know the day and the hour of Jesus' return Only the Father in Heaven knows the day and the hour.
But the Bible tell us also that when we will see ALL THESE THINGS ARRIVING that He will be close at the doors
Matthew 24:32-33
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

[/b]and will be visible only to THE SAINTS.[/b]

Totally false teaching.
The Bible tell us that the Coming Of Jesus will be visible to ALL Matthew 24:29-31

Now I will grant you that the Rapture is one of the more difficult doctrines in the Bible to discern, simply because it requires a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of the chronological order of prophetic events.

God created time as a mean of letting His children know what will happen next on His prophetic time line. The Lord calls us His friends, as He clarified in John 15:15........
“Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.”

The Lord as our friend is telling us what He is going to do in the future. What an awesome Savior!

The Book of Revelation give us a point by point description of what will happen on the earth before His Return ...but you preach that we should not be worry about the Book of Revelation.

For YOU to understand why there is a 7 year period of time requires that YOU study the Tribulation Period that Jeremiah wrote about concerning Israel.

Then YOU do the work as needed to understand Daniel's 70th Week prophecy.

I have never said that there will be no time of trouble.

Now I would like to ask you humbly and with all due respect a real simple question.
Some of the greatest men of God of the past 150 years all believed in a PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE! Harry A. Ironside, John R. Rice, Jack Hyles, Bob Jones Sr., Lee Roberson, Oliver B. Greene, R.A. Torrey, Dwight Moody, Lester Roloff, Curtis Hutson, Billy Sunday, W.A. Criswell, Charles C. Ryrie, Raymond Barber, Billy Graham, J. Vernon Magee, Edward Dobson, Charles Feinburg, Edward Hinson, John Walvoord and others all concluded and taught a Pretribulation Rapture of the saints!!! Were they all wrong on this Bible doctrine and YOU are correct?

The point is exactly that the rapture of the church to Heaven before the tribulation is a NEW DOCTRINE who became very popular about 150 years ago.
There is no trace of that DOCTRINE before John Nelson Darby invented it around 1830.

The beliefs he disseminated then are still being propagated (in various forms) at such places as Dallas Theological Seminary and by authors and preachers such as Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye.

Lets see the little history of your doctrine.
John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia
In 1825, Darby was ordained deacon of the established Church of Ireland and the following year as priest.

Darby resigned his curacy in protest. Soon afterwards, in October 1827,
he fell from a horse and was seriously injured. He later stated that it was during this time that he began to believe that the "kingdom" described in the Book of Isaiah and elsewhere in the Old Testament was entirely different from the Christian church.

Darby is noted in the theological world as the father of "dispensationalism", later made popular in the United States by Cyrus Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible.

Charles Henry Mackintosh, 1820–1896, with his popular style spread Darby's teachings to humbler elements in society and may be regarded as the journalist of the Brethren Movement. Mackintosh popularised Darby[16] more than any other Brethren author. In the early twentieth century, the Brethren's teachings, through Margaret E. Barber, greatly influenced the Little Flock or Church Assembly Hall of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.[17]

Darby has been credited with originating the pre-tribulational rapture theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove His bride, the Church, from this world before the judgments of the tribulation. Some claim that this "the Rapture of the Saints" was the origin of the idea of the "rapture."

 

[Postvieww]

Implied truth? An interesting concept, I understand what you are saying in your post and would counter for something to be implied there would have to be something in the context to base that implication on or IMHO it will just be another opinion not an implication. It seems you are lessening the importance of “strict interpretation” or at least in this case ruling it out altogether.

I do not believe in any way that a man of your perceived education and ability has not been exposed to the idea of "Implied Truth".

If Implied Truth is not an acceptable element of teaching, how would we believe in the Trinity?
Where would we locate and find the word Trinity????

I am not lessening the importance of anything. I am simply suggesting to you that the process of Implied truth is valid.

While we do not find the word trinity its concept is clearly defined so we can imply the word trinity is correct doctrine.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Likewise we do not have the word rapture in scripture, but the concept of a rapture (catching up) is in scripture.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

My point is, there is no concept of a trip to heaven for the raptured church implied anywhere in scripture.


Again we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Major1]

While we do not find the word trinity its concept is clearly defined so we can imply the word trinity is correct doctrine.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Likewise we do not have the word rapture in scripture, but the concept of a rapture (catching up) is in scripture.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

My point is, there is no concept of a trip to heaven for the raptured church implied anywhere in scripture.


Again we will have to agree to disagree.

No problem my brother.

When I read the words......."Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord":

I am convicted that the truth there is IMPLIED that we will be with the Lord.

Now, where is the Lord?

John 14:1-3...........
Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;1 believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

When I studied Jewish customs it becomes very clear very quickly that they often used as illustrations in the Bible. It is not coincidence that in John 14:2, Jesus chooses the precise words that a Jewish bridegroom would use when addressing his future bride. He tells her he is going to prepare a place for her. Then he leaves to go back to his father's house to prepare the marriage chamber. When He returns for his bride she is supposed to be ready and waiting for him.

He takes her back to his father's house where they enter the bridal chamber - the marriage is consummated - and the bridal week begins.

Isaiah 27:20 ........
"Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain."

Based on Jewish tradition, the bride and groom remain in the bridal chamber for one week during the wedding celebration. This is more than just an interesting parallel; it is a direct foreshadowing of things that will happen. Jesus will come to take His bride to His Father's mansion at the Rapture, where we will enjoy a seven-year wedding “week”.

That tells me Jesus the Lord is in heaven with God because that is where the Father lives.

The IMPLICATION we both agree is valid then says to me that when we MEET Jesus is the air at the Rapture He will take us to heaven just as He said..."and so shall we ever be with the Lord".

Where else would the Father be??? New York, Atlanta, St. Louis? NO! He is home in heaven and that is where we go.

I am sorry that you do not see that in the context of Scriptures and I certainly can not make anyone see that. It is what I have come to understand and believe.

God bless you brother.

 

[Major1]

The Bible tell us that no one know the day and the hour of Jesus' return Only the Father in Heaven knows the day and the hour.
But the Bible tell us also that when we will see ALL THESE THINGS ARRIVING that He will be close at the doors
Matthew 24:32-33
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


Totally false teaching.
The Bible tell us that the Coming Of Jesus will be visible to ALL Matthew 24:29-31


The Book of Revelation give us a point by point description of what will happen on the earth before His Return ...but you preach that we should not be worry about the Book of Revelation.


I have never said that there will be no time of trouble.


The point is exactly that the rapture of the church to Heaven before the tribulation is a NEW DOCTRINE who became very popular about 150 years ago.
There is no trace of that DOCTRINE before John Nelson Darby invented it around 1830.

The beliefs he disseminated then are still being propagated (in various forms) at such places as Dallas Theological Seminary and by authors and preachers such as Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye.

Lets see the little history of your doctrine.
John Nelson Darby - Wikipedia
In 1825, Darby was ordained deacon of the established Church of Ireland and the following year as priest.

Darby resigned his curacy in protest. Soon afterwards, in October 1827,
he fell from a horse and was seriously injured. He later stated that it was during this time that he began to believe that the "kingdom" described in the Book of Isaiah and elsewhere in the Old Testament was entirely different from the Christian church.

Darby is noted in the theological world as the father of "dispensationalism", later made popular in the United States by Cyrus Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible.

Charles Henry Mackintosh, 1820–1896, with his popular style spread Darby's teachings to humbler elements in society and may be regarded as the journalist of the Brethren Movement. Mackintosh popularised Darby[16] more than any other Brethren author. In the early twentieth century, the Brethren's teachings, through Margaret E. Barber, greatly influenced the Little Flock or Church Assembly Hall of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.[17]

Darby has been credited with originating the pre-tribulational rapture theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove His bride, the Church, from this world before the judgments of the tribulation. Some claim that this "the Rapture of the Saints" was the origin of the idea of the "rapture."

I understand completely your need to be right. I really do! But once again I have to disagree with your opinions and your understanding of factual truth. The Rapture IS NOT a NEW DOCTRINE.
The bottom line is that NO, the PRE-tribulation Rapture is not a new teaching. I have heard numerous people, from pastors to talk show hosts, claim that the PRE-TRIBULATION Rapture is a new teaching that didn't exist until just a couple hundred years ago. Many websites teach this heresy as well.

I know that it is important for you to believe that but it just is not the truth.

First of all....we clearly read in 1st Thessalonians 4:17 that all believers shall be “caught up” together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. This is the Rapture of the Church, which may take place at any “moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (1st Corinthians 15:52).

Those words were written almost 2000 years ago so I am very comfortable that the Rapture is a very OLD teaching.

Secondly, there are several problems with this argument of the Rapture being NEW, so reject it. That kind of thinking clearly ignores the fact that the Bible teaches that end time prophecies will not be understood until the time comes for the predicted events to take place.

Consider the Bible fact that when the prophet Daniel was given some specific prophecies about the end times, he complained to the Lord that he did not understand them. The Lord responded with these words: in Dan. 12:9......
“Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end times”.

Jeremiah was told the same thing by the Lord on two occasions in 23:20 and 30:24.

There are many end time prophecies that can not be understood apart from historical or technological developments. For example, all of end time prophecy revolves around the state of Israel. Those prophecies were not fully understandable before the re-establishment of the state of Israel in May of 1948.

Think of it for a moment — how could anyone in 1900 understand the prophecy in Ezekiel 38 that Russia will invade Israel in the end times? Israel did not exist, nor was there any prospect of Israel ever existing again. And Russia was a peaceful Christian Orthodox country.

You probably do not know WHY you believe as you do. It is just that you accept what you think to be true without investigating WHY.

Allow me to tell you WHY. In this regard, the reason the Pre-Tribulation concept of the timing of the Rapture was delayed in its refinement until the 19th Century was because the Roman Catholic Church adopted St. Augustine’s amillennial viewpoint of prophecy hook-line-and-sinker around 430 AD. In his book, The City of God, Augustine spiritualized Bible prophecy and then argued that the Millennium began at the Cross and would continue until the Second Coming.

Bingo! There in lies the reason behind WHY!

 

[Riberra]

I understand completely your need to be right. I really do! But once again I have to disagree with your opinions and your understanding of factual truth. The Rapture IS NOT a NEW DOCTRINE.
The bottom line is that NO, the PRE-tribulation Rapture is not a new teaching. I have heard numerous people, from pastors to talk show hosts, claim that the PRE-TRIBULATION Rapture is a new teaching that didn't exist until just a couple hundred years ago. Many websites teach this heresy as well.

I know that it is important for you to believe that but it just is not the truth.

First of all....we clearly read in 1st Thessalonians 4:17 that all believers shall be “caught up” together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. This is the Rapture of the Church, which may take place at any “moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (1st Corinthians 15:52).

Those words were written almost 2000 years ago so I am very comfortable that the Rapture is a very OLD teaching.

1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 refers to the RESURRECTION of the dead believers and the changing of the believers alive and remain who will happen at the Last Trump [not the 7th trumpet of Revelation but the Trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:31 unto the Coming of Jesus in Glory Matthew 24:29-31.

The pre-tribbers have changed the verses about the resurrection [of the believers] who will happen Unto the coming of Jesus in Glory into a rapture to Heaven before the tribulation...

Even the blessed hope which is the resurrection of the believers to eternal life , who will happen unto the Glorious appearing of Jesus [Titus 2:13] have been changed by the pre-tribbers into the hope of a trip to Heaven before the tribulation while the Bible in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 tell us that our blessed hope is the RESURRECTION.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

[Major1]

1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 refers to the RESURRECTION of the dead believers and the changing of the believers alive and remain who will happen at the Last Trump [not the 7th trumpet of Revelation but the Trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:31 unto the Coming of Jesus in Glory Matthew 24:29-31.

The pre-tribbers have changed the verses about the resurrection [of the believers] who will happen Unto the coming of Jesus in Glory into a rapture to Heaven before the tribulation...

Even the blessed hope which is the resurrection of the believers to eternal life , who will happen unto the Glorious appearing of Jesus [Titus 2:13] have been changed by the pre-tribbers into the hope of a trip to Heaven before the tribulation while the Bible in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 tell us that our blessed hope is the RESURRECTION.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Where in 1 Corth. and 1 Thess. is the mention of the 7th Trumpet judgment?????
There is nothing in either passage about any JUDGMENT.

The "last trump" of 1 Corth. IS NOT the last Trump judgment of the Revelation. It is however the last trumpet of 1 Thess 4:16.It is so designated because it signals the end of the present age of the Church.

The resurrection in 1 Thess. is the Rapture. The Rapture is the Hope for believers.

There are too many misguided Christians who try to relate the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the trumpet judgments in the Book of Revelation. It is a common problem of post-tribbers, but easily rectified if you understand the Old Testament and the Jewish Feasts.

Revelation 11:12 ....
"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

Are there two "comings" of Christ?......YES!

NEXT Coming - #3952 Parousia (Vine's) - Literal, a presence with, and being, denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. When used of the return of Christ, at the rapture of the church, it signifies, not merely His momentary 'coming' for His saints, but His presence with them from that moment until His revelation and manifestation to the world.

1 Corinthians 15:23 ....
"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (rapture).

1 Thessalonians 4:15 -17 ......
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 .......
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

The movement of the believer at the Rapture is from earth to heaven in which the Lord comes to call His bride up to His Father's House which answers John 14:3.

 

[Riberra]

Where in 1 Corth. and 1 Thess. is the mention of the 7th Trumpet judgment?????
There is nothing in either passage about any JUDGMENT.

The "last trump" of 1 Corth. IS NOT the last Trump judgment of the Revelation. It is however the last trumpet of 1 Thess 4:16.It is so designated because it signals the end of the present age of the Church.

The resurrection in 1 Thess. is the Rapture. The Rapture is the Hope for believers.

-If you read my post correctly i said that the last trump of 1 Thess 4:16 is NOT the 7th trumpet mentioned in Revelation.

In Matthew 24:29-31 we have the Coming of Jesus and the Trumpet .

-But the TRUMPET mentioned in Matthew 24:31 .
Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Major1]

-If you read my post correctly i said that the last trump of 1 Thess 4:16 is NOT the 7th trumpet mentioned in Revelation.

-But the TRUMPET mentioned in Matthew 24:31 .
Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

May the Lord bless you!

 

[Riberra]

May the Lord bless you!

Tell us where in the Bible there is mention that a trumpet will sound the END of the Church Age...that is a pure invention of your messiah John Nelson Darby.

Synopsis of the Books of the Bible
by John Nelson Darby
[1857-62]

All the things that you preach about the so called rapture of the Church to Heaven before the tribulation can be found in the interpretation of the Bible made by Darby.
Synopsis of the Books of the Bible by John Nelson Darby Index

 

[Major1]

Tell us where in the Bible there is mention that a trumpet will sound the END of the Church Age...that is a pure invention of your messiah John Nelson Darby.

Synopsis of the Books of the Bible
by John Nelson Darby
[1857-62]

Synopsis of the Books of the Bible by John Nelson Darby Index

Wonderful question and thanks for asking.......

Thessalonians 4:16
"The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

 

[Riberra]

Wonderful question and thanks for asking.......

1 Thessalonians 4:16
"The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

The context is that this will happen UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS not before the tribulation.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

[Postvieww]

Major1 said: ↑

I understand completely your need to be right. I really do! But once again I have to disagree with your opinions and your understanding of factual truth. The Rapture IS NOT a NEW DOCTRINE.

The bottom line is that NO, the PRE-tribulation Rapture is not a new teaching. I have heard numerous people, from pastors to talk show hosts, claim that the PRE-TRIBULATION Rapture is a new teaching that didn't exist until just a couple hundred years ago. Many websites teach this heresy as well.

I know that it is important for you to believe that but it just is not the truth.



What you have stated above is a very common view and valid as your opinion, but since you state it a factual truth and the opposing view is heresy you should back that up with facts. Quotes from early church fathers and preachers from before the early 1800’s will do.

 

[Major1]

The context is that this will happen UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS not before the tribulation.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

NOPE! The context is the actual COMING of Jesus in the air to gather His children.

2 Thess. 2:1-4........
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day
(Rapture) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

The context of Scripture says that there will be a "Falling Away"......(I believe we are in that now)
Then the Rapture will take place......
followed by the appearance of the A/C.

 

[Major1]

Major1 said: ↑

I understand completely your need to be right. I really do! But once again I have to disagree with your opinions and your understanding of factual truth. The Rapture IS NOT a NEW DOCTRINE.

The bottom line is that NO, the PRE-tribulation Rapture is not a new teaching. I have heard numerous people, from pastors to talk show hosts, claim that the PRE-TRIBULATION Rapture is a new teaching that didn't exist until just a couple hundred years ago. Many websites teach this heresy as well.

I know that it is important for you to believe that but it just is not the truth.



What you have stated above is a very common view and valid as your opinion, but since you state it a factual truth and the opposing view is heresy you should back that up with facts. Quotes from early church fathers and preachers from before the early 1800’s will do.

Absolutely my brother. The 1sr one that comes to my mind is the Apostle Paul 2000 years ago.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17........
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. "

The writer of Hebrews agreed in chapter 9:28.........
"so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

James agreed with both of those men in 5:7..........
"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain."

Peter agreed as well in 3:14....
"but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy."

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France.

Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage.

In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”


Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis.

In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:
"do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Is that enough for you or do I need to add more. The Rapture was NOT invented in 1830 by Charles Darby as the facts clearly establish. But you know....YOU could have looked all those up on the same internet that I used.

Now, IF.....IF it was a new teaching which was developed in 1830, WHY is that a problem?
WHY is the idea of it being NEW used to discredit it?

Didn't God speak these same words to Daniel in 12:4...........
“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase".

Then also in 12:9-10..........
"And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand."

Has not God spoken to men in different ways over many years ????

I do not understand the reasoning behind rejecting a Bible doctrine if God did not choose to reveal it 2000 years ago but instead 200 years ago.

Wasn't saved by GRACE through FAITH developed by Martin Luther in 1519 which began the Protestant church???? Should that be rejected because in 1525 it was a NEW doctrine.

What about the CHURCH? It was not in existence until God revealed it to Paul? Do we accept it as valid today because it is OLD or because God said so to Paul? Wouldn't the same process apply to Luther???

 

[Riberra]

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France.

Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when IN THE END the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they OVERCOME they are crowned with incorruption.”

The context of Iraneus statement is that Jesus will destroy the wicked upon His Coming [Revelation 16:15-21 Revelation 19 ] while that we will be with Jesus in the air in our immortal body [crowned with incorruption]..Iraneus does not say that we will be taken to Heaven.Iraneus talk about the reward of those who OVERCOME they are crowned with incorruption [unto Jesus' Coming]

If you continue to read the text you will see that
Irenaeus believed that the wickedness which took place previous to the deluge was due to the apostasy of the angels.

That is totally opposed to your view that this was because Cain's descendants had sex with the descendants of Seth.

Iraneus say that the reason that God send the deluge was directly implied with something that the angels who have apostasiate have done with humans ...that was the cause of the corruption and wickedness which took place previous to the deluge

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.29 (St. Irenaeus)

2. And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels.

For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah.

Happy Birthday !

 

[Major1]

The context of Iraneus statement is that Jesus will destroy the wicked upon His Coming [Revelation 16:15-21 Revelation 19 ] while that we will be with Jesus in the air in our immortal body [crowned with incorruption]..Iraneus does not say that we will be taken to Heaven.Iraneus talk about the reward of those who OVERCOME they are crowned with incorruption [unto Jesus' Coming]

If you continue to read the text you will see that
Irenaeus believed that the wickedness which took place previous to the deluge was due to the apostasy of the angels.

That is totally opposed to your view that this was because Cain's descendants had sex with the descendants of Seth.

Iraneus say that the reason that God send the deluge was directly implied with something that the angels who have apostasiate have done with humans ...that was the cause of the corruption and wickedness which took place previous to the deluge

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.29 (St. Irenaeus)

2. And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels.

For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah.

Happy Birthday !

Thank you.

It is clear that the early church immediately following the apostles held to a premillennial view of Christ's coming to earth. These theologians embraced two key truths concerning Christ's return to earth. The idea of an any moment return and a coming of Christ to rule as the political and spiritual king over the world were advocated by many of the earliest theologians. Here is a partial list of some of the theologians who embraced the doctrine of imminency and/or the future kingdom rule of Christ:

Papias (60-130)
Clement of Rome (90-100)
The Sherpherd of Hermas (96-150)
Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)
Barnabas (100)
The Didache (100-160)
Justin Martyr (110-165)
The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138)
Irenaeus (120-202)
Tertullian (145-220)
Hippolytus (185-236)
Cyprian (200-250)
Lactantius (260-330)

From these men we see the doctrine of Christ's soon return within a premillennial framework. The doctrine permeated the early church. Some of these men even had direct contact with the apostles.
There are many, many more at (The History of the Pre-trib Rapture).