Where exactly did Jesus give permission to kill?

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marke

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I asked this in another forum and after a few days and many posts, not a single verse was quoted. Now I've lost the thread and haven't been able to check to see if anyone found and scripture supporting the action of taking another human life. All I can find is the example of Stephen.

Thought I would ask the bible study group. If anyone can find scripture supporting this assertion Christians can kill, it should be the bible study groups.

I can't find a single verse anywhere that allows a Christian to take another human life and yet so many believe they can without harming their soul. Lot's of people want to justify the action, but no one can produce scripture to support the notion.

Help us all out and put your minds to it. Where exactly did Jesus give permission to kill?

God Bless.
 
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Nazaroo

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You are correct in your observation that Christians are not given any kind of special 'card blanche' permission to murder, or even fight in national wars etc.

Too much is often made of the fact that on one occasion, John the Baptist told (Roman?) soldiers simply to 'be satisfied with your wages'. Many have claimed that this means both JB and JC approved of the occupation of 'soldier' or at least 'policeman', and even 'military occupier'.

But this is untenable. For Roman soldiers were not at liberty to 'volunteer' for service, or 'retire' from the army at will, or even quit their jobs like a modern policeman. The penalty for desertion in almost every army (especially during wars or battles) has always been torture and execution, usually in a horrible or brutal manner.

(Even in the British Navy, men were routinely keelhauled or horsewhipped for minor infractions of discipline or 'backsass'.)

Had John the Baptist said, "Just quite your post, and pick flowers with us here by the Jordan." he would have been sentencing them all, including innocent Jewish/Christian followers, to an immediate and instant slaughter.

John was probably speaking in recognition of the severe and inescapable conditions they were all under because of Roman 'martial law' during the occupation.

Secondly, Jesus told His followers to obey the Law, (Torah), not enforce it, or impose it upon others. Just looking after the log in your own eye is a full-time occupation in God's eyes. Its enough to follow the Spirit of the Law yourself, and speak the truth when asked.

Running around arresting people and locking them up for 'breaking the Law' was exactly what Paul did BEFORE he was saved, and exactly what he STOPPED doing, after he came to know the Lord.


It is true that Paul continued to 'discipline his flock, and followers', but this appears to have been limited to casting out unrepentant, stubborn, or arrogant, or deceivers and fakes out of the Church.

Christians did not 'stone to death' members of their congregations who broke the Law, or turn them over to the police.


Although there was a limited Old Testament mandate to enforce the Law within the boundaries of the Nation of Israel under the Old Covenant, that covenant and nation was smashed and scattered hundreds of years before Jesus came.


Jesus specifically did NOT restore the true Theocracy of Israel when he came the first time (cf. Acts 1:7), and therefore did NOT set up a law-enforcement system to employ His Christian followers.

The question of self-defence is taken for granted in the New Testament however. Jesus warns His own followers to take steps to save themselves in times of persecution, such as fleeing to hide in the hills, or owning a sword for self-defence or deterring the crime of robbery.

There has never been any 'blood-guilt' for killing a man who invades your home at night in the process of defending your home and family. Jesus apparently did not directly address this question or change our obligations in response to emergencies such as a home invasion.

This means that robbers who invade occupied homes know full well their own risk in doing so, and can be assumed to be violent and dangerous men.

But most Christians would agree that violence or force is a last resort, and suggests that not only has all else failed, but somehow we have failed too, in addressing a problem before extreme behaviour is felt necessary.

For instance, in previous ages, people were 'imprisoned' for debt, which is self-destructive, since no one can pay off a debt while in prison, even by working.

The Law was rightly changed to reflect common sense and more Christian values, and 'debtor's prison' was abolished.

In many cases, our laws are not really inspired by the Holy Spirit, nor is their enforcement. Often we have to find ways to change the law, or change its application or penalty, to reflect better the Christian world that God wants us to build.

To address your question directly, I would say that NO scripture, even in the Old Testament gives citizens the right to 'vigilante justice' or to enforce the Law themselves, except in emergency situations, like a break-in.

On the contrary, Israelites are warned to obey the courts and the judges and rulers of their people, and make the best of it.

In the New Testament, men are called to such a high and difficult standard that they may even be expected to suffer loss of their property, even their families, personal injury, and even torture or death in the process of serving God. This is hardly a mandate to kill others or enforce 'the Law', but rather a demand from God to live your life always as a living personal sacrifice in your employment in God's 'army' of servants, prophets, teachers, elders etc. there appears to be no specialized jobs like a physical 'policeman' or 'soldier' in God's 'elect', under the New Covenant.

Instead it is a serious adult commitment to a kind of 'warfare' which is entirely Spiritual, and not based upon earthly physical force or violence.

As Jesus said,

"My Kingdom is Not of this world."

The most effective weapons we are given in our spiritual battles for God are SPEECH and PRAYER. Although both seem foolish and inadequate to non-believers, believers should know from experience that both are very effective tools for change.

These are your weapons. use them wisely.


 
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hlaltimus

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I do not see where Jesus mandated capital punishment within the Church, but he never abrogated capital punishment without the church. Since Israel was a theocracy, capital punishment was viable in that economy and so for this reason the religious leaders thought that they had the Lord Jesus boxed into a corner in the case of the adulterous woman in John 8:3-11. He, Christ, got her "off the hook" in a miraculous display of wisdom and providence because He was in process of setting up a new kingdom upon the Earth which was destined to be separate from the state unlike the entity Israel. Since Christ did not set aside the text of the law in this case, but only deflected the prosecution of that law, the law requiring the death of a certain offender was left intact...Within the bounds of a legitimate government. This means that killing is out of the question for members of the Church of Christ upon Earth, but not for members of a political body necessarily. A Christian who is also an American may justifiably then consent to the death penalty for a manifest murderer as a juror...Only then in his or her capacity as an American and not as a Christian. The Church and the State have been permanently separated in our era and one does not cancel out the legitimacy of the other.
 
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EternalSunshine21

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I've always learned that to be Christlike is to turn the other cheek. I know that it's easier said than done, but the jist is that there are other ways of dealing with confrontation that are non-physical. I believe in just talking it out. Explain your side of the situation and allow the other side to do the same. Find comparisons and tell the other about them. Then find the differences and talk to the other about ways of fixing the problem. I believe all problems can be solved through communication. If not then why did God allow us to speak?
 
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bdarien

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I've always learned that to be Christlike is to turn the other cheek. I know that it's easier said than done, but the jist is that there are other ways of dealing with confrontation that are non-physical. I believe in just talking it out. Explain your side of the situation and allow the other side to do the same. Find comparisons and tell the other about them. Then find the differences and talk to the other about ways of fixing the problem. I believe all problems can be solved through communication. If not then why did God allow us to speak?
its a nice thing to think that all problems can be solved thru communication but its also incredibly naive. this was what the appeasers tried to do before world war 2 and it failed miserably as it always does when it comes to tyrants. There are always situations that can come where it simply is not an option to limit our responses to simply talking it out. The guy who shot those girls at the amish school used the time given to him by the cops to "just talk" to kill and wound those girls. He had no intention of talking only hurting others. If everyone was reasonable and rational then "just talk it out" would work but in this sinful world everyone is not reasonable or rational in fact most are not.
 
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Zeena

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I've always learned that to be Christlike is to turn the other cheek. I know that it's easier said than done, but the jist is that there are other ways of dealing with confrontation that are non-physical. I believe in just talking it out. Explain your side of the situation and allow the other side to do the same. Find comparisons and tell the other about them. Then find the differences and talk to the other about ways of fixing the problem. I believe all problems can be solved through communication. If not then why did God allow us to speak?
Being Christ-Like, and having Jesus LIVE His Life in and through us are two different things..

One is works, the other is Grace :)
 
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