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Where Does It Say?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Tone, Jan 15, 2019.

  1. Tone

    Tone "Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great." Supporter

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    I know that any kind of work for profit is prohibited on Shabbat, but where does it say that one must not buy or sell?

    *I mean, money can change hands without profit being a motive right...like giving some to someone in need...or just aquiring some need like food or transportation...or even going out to have a good time with family or friends you haven't seen in a while. It's not work, is it?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  2. tampasteve

    tampasteve Lost in the swamp Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    Torah prohibits Melachah, which in general terms is creative work or "control" over one's environment. So, Torah does not prohibit work in the American idea, such as a Rabbi "working" to lead services - which is his job and he is paid (often), which most people would say is "work".

    Judaism 101: ShabbatJudaism 101: Shabbat
    "
    The word melachah is rarely used in scripture outside of the context of Shabbat and holiday restrictions. The only other repeated use of the word is in the discussion of the building of the sanctuary and its vessels in the wilderness. Exodus Ch. 31, 35-38. Notably, the Shabbat restrictions are reiterated during this discussion (Ex. 31:13), thus we can infer that the work of creating the sanctuary had to be stopped for Shabbat. From this, the rabbis concluded that the work prohibited on Shabbat is the same as the work of creating the sanctuary. They found 39 categories of forbidden acts, all of which are types of work that were needed to build the sanctuary:

    1. Sowing
    2. Plowing
    3. Reaping
    4. Binding sheaves
    5. Threshing
    6. Winnowing
    7. Selecting
    8. Grinding
    9. Sifting
    10. Kneading
    11. Baking
    12. Shearing wool
    13. Washing wool
    14. Beating wool
    15. Dyeing wool
    16. Spinning
    17. Weaving
    18. Making two loops
    19. Weaving two threads
    20. Separating two threads
    21. Tying
    22. Untying
    23. Sewing two stitches
    24. Tearing
    25. Trapping
    26. Slaughtering
    27. Flaying
    28. Salting meat
    29. Curing hide
    30. Scraping hide
    31. Cutting hide up
    32. Writing two letters
    33. Erasing two letters
    34. Building
    35. Tearing a building down
    36. Extinguishing a fire
    37. Kindling a fire
    38. Hitting with a hammer
    39. Taking an object from the private domain to the public, or transporting an object in the public domain.

      All of these tasks are prohibited, as well as any task that operates by the same principle or has the same purpose. In addition, the rabbis have prohibited handling any implement that is intended to perform one of the above purposes (for example, a hammer, a pencil or a match) unless the tool is needed for a permitted purpose (using a hammer to crack nuts when nothing else is available) or needs to be moved to do something permitted (moving a pencil that is sitting on a prayer book), or in certain other limited circumstances. Objects that may not be handled on Shabbat are referred to as "muktzeh," which means, "that which is set aside," because you set it aside (and don't use it unnecessarily) on Shabbat.

      The rabbis have also prohibited travel, buying and selling, and other weekday tasks that would interfere with the spirit of Shabbat. The use of electricity is prohibited because it serves the same function as fire or some of the other prohibitions, or because it is technically considered to be "fire."
     
  3. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    There are 6 other days to do these things. There is a difference between the holy and the mundane. Exodus 20:6-11
     
  4. Tone

    Tone "Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great." Supporter

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    So, Exodus 31:13

    "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you."

    But is there something more specific to buying and selling on Shabbat. Part of why I bring this up is because some say that buying and selling on that day is related to the mark of the beast. So, if there is no biblical support, that idea is weak.
     
  5. Tone

    Tone "Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great." Supporter

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    Yeah it says no labor on the day, but doesn't mention buying and selling.
     
  6. Dkh587

    Dkh587 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nehemiah condemned Yahudah because they were working & selling on the Sabbath

    Why would Nehemiah rebuke them for working and selling if only working was forbidden, and not buying/selling?

    If you’re buying or selling, you’re working, and/or causing others to work.
     
  7. Dkh587

    Dkh587 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Amos 8:1-6 NIV
    YHWH doesn’t speak favorably towards those who await for the Sabbath to end so that they can start back selling wheat and grain.
     
  8. Tone

    Tone "Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great." Supporter

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    I see what you're saying, but was he rebuking them for the labor intensiveness of it... especially in the temple, or for the actual exchange of money. It's not very laborious to trade paper for products or service nowadays. As far as causing people to work, that's really on them...we are told to keep the Shabbat holy. Some Sabbatarians see work that day and count it as service...some even donating their pay for that day.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  9. Tone

    Tone "Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great." Supporter

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    I think the emphasis here is their profit motive at the expense of the poor. What about "...like giving some to someone in need...or just aquiring some need like food or transportation...or even going out to have a good time with family or friends you haven't seen in a while"?
     
  10. Dkh587

    Dkh587 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He was rebuking them for working, which included selling.

    The commandment says:

    Just because someone is disobedient doesn’t mean we should join them in disobedience, especially if we know that partaking would be disobedience.

    Buying and selling is buying and selling. What’s the difference between buying and selling thumbtacks versus selling cars versus selling cattle on the Sabbath?

    There is no difference - buying and selling on the Sabbath is against the commandment to keep the Sabbath set-apart. It’s not the level of labor that matters. What matters is that we obey God.

    Just because there’s not much physical exertion for a merchant to sell paper doesn’t mean that they’re exempt from God commanding us to not work.
     
  11. Tone

    Tone "Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great." Supporter

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    "And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day.

    People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Yahudah."

    Yeah, okay, I can see that...is there any other passages that explicitly prohibit selling?

    I don't see buying mentioned, although, you can make a case that it is implied. Still, I'd like something more definitive on the buying side.

    You feel that if you do buy from those selling on Shabbat you become complicit in desecrating the day?

    So what do you think about buying and selling on Shabbat in relation to the mark of the beast?
     
  12. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    IMO, the mark is for buying and selling...without the mark, you wont be able to be part of commerce at that time. I don't think it is specifically for Shabbat.
     
  13. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    most people work by buying and selling...it is commerce.
     
  14. Tone

    Tone "Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great." Supporter

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    So, is it safe to say that one day all commerce will be forbidden, every day, as it is now for the Shabbat? If so, we will have entered our rest...

    Hebrews 4:10

    "For whoever enters his rest has rested from his works as Yah has from his own."
     
  15. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    It use to be that Sunday Laws tried to enforce this concept, except on the wrong day. That Law is still on the books. This concept came from Sabbath keeping. Not that the Sabbath keeping was ever forced on unbelievers like the Sunday Laws were.
     
  16. tampasteve

    tampasteve Lost in the swamp Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    If you want to use money on the sabbath I am not going to say you should not, especially if you are a gentile believer. I use money on the sabbath, but if I were Jewish I would not. Not everything is written in scriptures, but that does not mean it is not the correct way. Many of the Laws that Jewish people are to follow are written as a basic in the Torah, but how they are to be done is/was not written down but was passed down orally - the Oral Torah. The sages decided long ago how to interpret most of the Law, and not carrying money or using money has been the norm. As MJ we usually reference the Talmud, Mishna, and other sources when we need clarification on matters that may not be expounded upon clearly in scripture - sabbath keeping is one of those.
     
  17. Tone

    Tone "Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great." Supporter

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    Where does it say "gentile believer"?
     
  18. tampasteve

    tampasteve Lost in the swamp Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    It does not, that is why I said "I am not going to say you should not". On this forum we follow the forum's Statement of Purpose which says:
    • Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.

    So I will not tell someone to follow that part of the Law if they wish not to.
     
  19. Tone

    Tone "Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great." Supporter

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    Oh okay, thanks

    The reason I pointed that out is because I have come to believe that the whole Jew/gentile distinction stifles understanding of the continuity of Scripture.

    You know, the whole Galatians 3:28 thing:

    "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Yahshua ha Mashiach."

    But, hey, I'm male, so I guess since the kingdom has not fully arrived, it is what it is...
     
  20. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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