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Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, Feb 8, 2019.

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  1. Pethesedzao

    Pethesedzao Well-Known Member

    United Kingdom
    and the Law was not made for the righteous but for the ?
  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    United States
    Romans 14 also speaks to the Assembly concerning both days and food:

    Romans 14:14,15 Did Paul declare all foods clean?

    Romans 14:
    5One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
    6He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesn't eat, to the Lord he doesn't eat, and gives God thanks.

    7For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

    10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    11For it is written, "'As I live,' says the Lord, 'to me every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess to God.'"
    12So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.

    Ezekiel 14:1-11; 1 Corinthians 8:1-13)

    13Therefore let's not judge one another any more, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block in his brother's way, or an occasion for falling.
    14I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; except that to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
    15Yet if because of food your brother is grieved, you walk no longer in love. Don't destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16Then don't let your good be slandered,

    17for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

    Did Paul declare all food clean in Romans 14:14,15?
    1. Yes
      44 vote(s)
    2. No
      15 vote(s)
    3. *
      I am not sure
      4 vote(s)
    4. Other
      9 vote(s)
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    Hi AveJoe nice to see you. Are you posting the Word of website or Word of God? Questions for your post.

    1, If the SABBATH was made in SEVENTH DAY of the CREATION WEEK *GENESIS 2:1-3 and JESUS says that the Sabbath was made for mankind and he is the LORD of it *MARK 2:27-28. How can the SABBATH be made for only the JEWS when there was no JEWS when the SABBATH was made?

    2, Where in ACTS 15 does it say it is referring to God's 10 commandments when the CONTEXT and issue of discussion was "IS CIRCUMCISION A REQUIREMENT FOR SALVATION" which is the CONTEXT of ACTS 15. *ACTS 15:1-2?

    3, According to God's WORD the early CHRISTIANS met EVERYDAY of the WEEK *ACTS 2:46-47 how does this support SUNDAY worship and how does this say God's 4th commandment is ABOLISHED and we are not commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

    4, JESUS and the APOSTLES who are our examples went to Church the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH according to God's 4th commandment are they contradicting Sunday worship?

    5, Is there freedom in Chrsit for Christians to go out and lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, use Gods name in vain.... ?

    6, The OLD COVENANT was made up of the ceremonial SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 and God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) that gives us the knowledge of what SIN is in both the OLD and NEW COVENANTS *ROMANS 3:20. What law is being discussed in Colossians 2:16-17?

    7, If someone breaks God's LAW (10 commandments) is it God's WORD that judges them? If your brother is knowingly doing something that will keep him out of God's KINGDOM are we as God's people responsible for their blood if we know and do nothing to help those that are following sin *EXEKIEL 3:17-21?

    Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *ROMANS 3:4; MATTHEW 15:3-9

    God bless
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  4. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    I celebrate Shabbat on Friday through Saturday. It is a time of peace and rest.
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  5. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    Hi David thanks for your thoughts.

    Where in ROMANS 14 does it say that the chapter is talking about God's 4th Commandment Sabbath or anyone of God's 10 commandments? Let's have a look at the scriptures...


    [1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.

    [2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on

    [3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem:

    LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

    The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]

    [4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments

    [8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

    [9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin:

    Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

    [10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    [11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14

    [12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.

    [13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).

    [14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14

    [15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".

    [17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day

    [18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances

    CONCLUSION: Nothing about God's 4th commandment in there at all. The scriptures are talking about food connected to days (eating and not eating (fasting) on days men esteem over other days. Not what days God esteems and judging others.

    The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes.

    LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God

    There is no mention in all of ROMANS 14 of God's 4th commandment or any of God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures something it is not talking about.

    Hope this helps.
  6. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Angels Team Supporter

    United States
    Oriental Orthodox
    A couple of years ago my brother sent me an email and asked a number of doctrinal questions including this one and this is what I wrote back to him.

    2) Why do we not keep the Sabbath day holy?

    There’s actually several issues involved in this question that I will break it down into a number of different answers based on various points.

    1A) Because this was not a formal requirement given to the Gentiles that received the Gospel in the “Jerusalem Counsel” recorded in the book of Acts 15:

    19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

    Commentary: if you notice the Gentiles were going “to church” so to speak where they heard such things preached “on the Sabbath”, but this is not laid out as a formal requirement made by the Jerusalem counsel in the book of Acts (which was presumably speaking by the Holy Spirit).

    1B) If the previous point is insufficient, I would also add other verses of saint Paul where he speaks of the necessity of keeping Jewish Holy Days such as: Colossians 2:16, Galatians 4:9-10.

    1C) Besides all that, there is the “Judaizer” conflict that is all over the New Testament and early Christian history. All the verses where Paul is speaking against people “using works” are essentially referencing people who rejected the Jerusalem Counsel of the books of Acts and were requiring believers to be circumcised, go Kosher, etc. including all the Sabbath keeping stuff.

    2) My second answer is that Christians DO KEEP THE SABBATH IF THEY FOLLOW THE LITURGICAL TRADITION OF EARLY CHRISTIANITY. This is the exact reason we have a “weekend”, instead of just having the Jewish Sabbath off, we get the Jewish Sabbath and “The Lord’s Day” (The Day that Christ rose from the dead) off. So, this is actually better than just having one day off, we as Christians get 2 days off. The problem however is that people (usually) have taken these days purely for themselves thus they don’t get the spiritual benefit from them!
  7. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    AMEN! God's presence is in his SEVENTH DAY SABBATH! God bless you sister and thanks for sharing your experience.
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  8. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

    United States
    Can you do that and chew gum too?

    Shabbat shalom by the way.
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  9. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    Hello brother Pavel Mosko nice to meet you brother and thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    ACTS 15 however has nothing to do with God's 4th Commandment or the 10 commandments. The CONTEXT of ACTS 15 is shown in ACTS 15:1-2 which was over the question "IS CIRCUMCISION A REQUIREMENT FOR SLAVATION"?

    The "LORDS DAY" According to God's WORD has never been SUNDAY and you cannot show a single scripture to say that the LORD'S DAY is SUNDAY.

    So if there is NO scripture in God's WORD that says the LORD'S DAY is SUNDAY then what DAY is the LORD'S DAY according to God's WORD? We real from God's WORD...


    Do you have any scriptures that answer any of the questions in the OP here?

    Thanks for shaing

    God bless.
  10. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

    United States
    The Lord's day isn't the Sabbath. The two are distinct- one doesn't replace the other. Anyone claiming otherwise is poorly catechized.
  11. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    INDEED that is the purpose of God's LAW it is the mirror that helps us to see our need of a Savior because we are all sinners in need of God's salvation. God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) give us the KNOWLEDGE of SIN when broken *ROMANS 3:20. God's 4th Commandment is one of God's 10 commandments. God's WORD says that if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN *JAMES 2:10-11.

    All those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    In times of IGNORANCE God winks at but when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come God calls all men everywhere to REPENT *ACTS 17:30-31.
  12. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    ~lol Shabbat shalom
  13. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter


    The Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 made a comprehensive decision. It is not limited to circumcision.
    Surely you are aware that Paul saw a very limited role for the Jewish Law for New Testament Christians. Are you so Old Testament-oriented that you aren't aware of what Paul said about Law and Grace?
  14. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

    United States
    I liked what you said about having both days off, but do you really believe that Paul was speaking of the Shabbat here? This would be the least difficult thing for the gentiles to "do". There's nothing to do, it's a Yah given rest that they get to enjoy.
  15. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    Hello LGW.

    You keep making the same mistake over and over again.
    We celebrate the risen Christ and gather on Sunday as the church has always done, from the first century and down through church history.

    We are not celebrating a day of rest, you are deeply confused.

    We gather and break bread on the first day, the very day that Christ was seen by the apostles to have risen.

    We worship Jesus on Sunday and we don't spend the day avoiding work.

    You somehow became entangled in the written law, your fixated with a single commandment in the law of Moses.

    We gentiles were never under the law.

    Romans 6:14
    For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

    Romans 6:15
    What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?

    Romans 7:4
    Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ.

    Romans 7:6
    But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

    1 Corinthians 9:20
    To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law.

    Galatians 2:19
    19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

    Galatians 3:10
    For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

    Galatians 3:24-25
    Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

    Galatians 5:18
    But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

    Ephesians 2:15
    By abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace.

    1 Timothy 1:9
    Realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers.

    Hebrews 7:18-19
    For on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

    2 Corinthians 3:7
    But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was.
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  16. Tone

    Tone Star Fish Radiant Supporter

    United States
    Correct, the "Lord's Day" is found in Revelation.

    Revelation 1:10


    "The Day of the Lord" is a biblical term and theme used in both the Hebrew Bible (יֹום יְהוָה) and the New Testament(ἡμέρα κυρίου), as in "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come" (Joel 2:31, cited in Acts 2:20).

    The Day of the Lord - Wikipedia
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  17. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter


    I'll give a somewhat different answer. At the beginning of Acts, we have the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Many theologians regard this as the founding of the Christian Church by the Holy Spirit.

    What day of the week is the Jewish feast of Pentecost? It is fifty days after the second Sabbath of Passover. Starting from the second Sabbath of Passover, going forward seven weeks, or 49 days, this is the seventh Sabbath after the 2nd Sabbath of Passover. This is a Saturday. To find fifty days after the second Sabbath of Passover, go forward one more day, and it is Sunday! Pentecost is always on a Sunday.

    There it is. The Holy Spirit founded the Christian Church on Pentecost Sunday. The Holy Spirit chose to found the Christian Church on a Sunday and there must be a reason for this.

    The outpouring of the Holy Spirit happened on a Sunday. If you don't like it, take it up with the Holy Spirit.
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    Hi brother Dale,

    Let's look at the scriptures? Here is a break down of ACTS 15..

    ACTS 15:1:21
    [1], And certain men who came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YOU BE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES YOU CANNOT BE SAVED.

    NOTE: ACTS 15:1 is the question that needs to be answered and the topic of conversation and CONTEXT of the chapter of ACTS 15. Here we have Jewish believers coming to Paul and Barnabas saying if the new GENTILES believers are not circumcised and made proselytes then they cannot be saved. This is the chapter context and issue of contention.


    NOTE: ACTS 15:2 Which question? Weather your salvation depends on being CIRCUMCISED.

    They then travelled to Jerusalem about this question to determine if new gentile believers needed to be CIRCUMCISED in order to be saved. Once they got to Jerusalem, the question was then asked and the discussion continued with the Pharasees stating their case first..

    [5], But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

    NOTE: KEEP in mind here the question was never over if gentile believers should obey God's 10 Commandments but to keep the Shadow laws of Moses, in this case CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation. CIRCUMCIONS is from the law of MOSES not God’s 10 Commandments written by God on two tables of stone.

    [6], And the apostles and elders came together TO CONSIDER THIS MATTER.

    NOTE: Again the topic of discussion and chapter CONTEXT that is being considered is the question stated in ACTS 15:1 which was IS CIRCUMCISION A REQUIREMENT OF SALVATION?

    [7], And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, you know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

    [8], And God, who knows the hearts, bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;

    NOTE: After much discussion between the Apostles, Peter then rose up showing that God gave the gentile believers the Holy Spirit being UNCIRCUMCISED.

    [9], And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
    [10], Now therefore why test God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
    [11], But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    NOTE: They came to the conclusion then that salvation is not by being circumcised but be what circumcision pointed to. A new heart by faith. This is made plain latter in other scripture written by PAUL here...

    ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

    If ACTS 15 was talking about the 10 Commandments then Pauls writings in to the CORITHIANS do not make any sense.


    The scripture above is a contradiction of how some interpret the outcome of ACTS 15. You do not believe Dale, that we are now free to break any of God's 10 Commandments now do you?

    [12], Then all the multitude kept silence, and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring what miracles and wonders God had done among the Gentiles by them.
    [13], And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
    [14], Simeon has declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    [15], And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    [16], After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    [17], That the rest of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who does all these things.
    [18], Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.


    NOTE: JAMES conclusion is that new Gentile believers should not be troubled with CIRCUMCISION as a requirement of salvation which was the matter being considered and the question being discussion as shown in *ACTS 15:1-2; ACTS 15:6 but asks them to abstain from idols, fornication and from things strangled and from blood.


    NOTE: The reason why JAMES sends this letter to the new Gentile believers is that they would continue learning God's WORD EVERY SABBATH.

    CONCLUSION So the conclusion of the matter with CONTEXT added back in is fould in v19-20 We are not to trouble the new gentile believers with CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation. They are new converts that will learn more about GOD'S WORD when? EVERY SABBATH. In the meantime you should abstain from anything offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication.

    NOPE nothing written about the 10 Commandments being abolished in this chapter. Here is what PAUL says of the matter here...


    Yep you may need to revisit your thinking of ACTS 15. CIRCUMCISION is not the 10 Commandments. It is from the Shadow laws of the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

    Sorry brother God's WORD disagrees with you.

    God bless
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    And... How does this say God's 4th Commandment is Abolished and we are not commanded to keep SUNDAY as a HOLY DAY?
  20. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

    United States
    And the challenge I make to you is post one passage requiring the Christian to keep the sabbath. Remember I'll hold you to the Greek and context of Heb 4.
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