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Where do we find the incarnation addressed in the Qur'an?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by GeorgeTwo, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God says he is not a man that he should lie, nice job taking the verse out of context, Furthermore God appeared as a man to fight Jacob in the Old Testament. God can’t change his divine nature to make it mortal he may however adopt a mortal nature upon himself. Jesus is split into two whole natures, I’m not saying he is half man and half God, he is fully God and fully man. Jesus by virtue of being God was co equal to God and by virtue of being man had all the limitations of man. If you read Acts 5:3 the Holy Spirit is called God.
     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Then that would be to deny the Incarnation. The word means that a spirit takes on flesh, and that does not describe a prophet.

    However, I take it that George Two is asking where, if anywhere, in the Koran the incarnation is explicitly denied, and your answer is, I think, nowhere is there an explicit rejection of the Incarnation.
     
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  3. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    ʼĔlāhā ܐܠܗܐ in Biblical Aramaic
    and ʼAlâhâ ܐܲܠܵܗܵܐ in Syriac as used by the Assyrian Church, both meaning simply 'God'.

    Per the Torah Abraham primarily called G-d "E-l" or "El-ohim" both of which reference the majesty and justice of G-d.

    In Genesis 14:18 the name E-l El-yon is used. This translates to "G-d most high."

    In Genesis 17:1 Abraham refers to G-d as "El Shadd-ai" (G-d Almighty) which speaks again to G-d's power.

    So the name of "E-l" which can be used to speak of G-d or of mighty beings including angels and humans with various iterations is primarily the name Abraham used to speak of G-d.
     
  4. Yi-man

    Yi-man Member

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    I've never heard a Arabic speaking Christian say that. You are likely being extremely liberal with the truth here.

    YHWH = ELoah/ALLAH https://yhvh.name/?w=2294


    I don't know much about the Yazidi faith. Wikipedia says the following:

    Yazidism, is monotheistic and combines aspects of several monotheistic religions: Zoroastrianism, Islam, Christianity and Judaism

    and

    Yazidis are monotheists,[38] believing in one God, who created the world and entrusted it into the care of a Heptad of seven Holy Beings, often known as Angels or heft sirr (the Seven Mysteries).

    So yes if they term their ONE GOD, creator of the World as ALLAH, then I have no issue with this part of their belief.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidis


    Not quite, in Aramaic an article like "the" is placed at the end of the word, so it actually means "The GOD".

    Incorrect here too as it actually corresponds with "HO THEOS" something Jesus pbuh was never called in the original Greek Manuscripts.

    Incorrect again...

    • Dushara, a Nabataean deity whose name means, "Lord of the Mountain", he was widely worshiped in Petra. Dushara is venerated as a supreme god by the Nabataeans, oftentimes he is referred as "Dushara and all the gods".[2] He is considered the god of the Nabataean royal house. >>>>"The fall of the Nabatean royal house to the Romans, caused the religion to be cast aside and its main deity lost. It was then that Dushara was associated with other gods, like Dionysus, Zeus, and Helios."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataean_religion

    Romans love to impose their man worshipping ways on other cultures.


    Where did Abraham pbuh who was born in Iraq settle Ishmael pbuh? Where is the Mount Sinai of Arabia mentioned by Paul in the NT?

    Where is Paran? ... "Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 10:12)"

    Can you produce a ancient map showing the Arabia mentioned in the following OT verses, 1 Kings 10:15, 2 Chronicles 9:14, Isaiah 21:13, Jeremiah 25:24, and Ezekiel 27:21, in which Arabia is clearly identified with the region EAST of the Gulf of Aqaba, where "kings" ruled and the "Dedanites" co-dwelt with other nomadic peoples.

    Exodus 3:1 plainly identifies Mount Horeb, (Sinai) as being in Midian: "Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God."

    Can you use the same map to show where Midian, Havilah and Shurwas are?
     
  5. Yi-man

    Yi-man Member

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    The full verse:

    Numbers 23:19
    19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
    Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
    Has He said, and will He not do it?
    Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

    In the NT Jesus pbuh tells some standing before him, he would return before they tasted death.
    He also repented everytime he prayed, "Our Father who are thou in Heaven FORGIVE us ...."

    Elsewhere we read:

    Hosea 11:9
    9 I will not execute My fierce anger;
    I will not destroy Ephraim again.
    For I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst,
    And I will not come in [a]wrath.

    I think you will find that was an Angel.

    So GOD died on the cross? He is not immortal? When he was resurrected by the other unlimited GOD, was he in Spirit form?

    Moses pbuh is called God too as are other people. What are you trying to prove?
     
  6. Yi-man

    Yi-man Member

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    You hold Jesus pbuh to be the most famous incarnation of GOD, and the Qur'an plainly says,

    "They have indeed disbelieved those who say: “Allah is the Messiah son of Mary.” Say [O Muhammad!]: “Who then can do anything against Allah if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, his mother, and everyone on earth?” Allah’s is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. Allah is able to do all things." (5.17)


    Qur'an 112
    Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One,

    Allah, the Eternal Refuge.
    He neither begets nor is born,

    Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

    Looks like a clear rejection of ALLAH swt incarnating as a man or anything else in His Creation.
     
  7. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, Jesus prayed to his Father, is there a problem with that? God is not a man that he should lie nor a son of man that he should repent, yeah that’s believes by all Christians. God is spirit not a man. Where does it state that God may not become incarnate while retaining his divine nature while adopting a nature of a man? For I am God not a man, God wasn’t incarnated as a man then so, yeah. As for the first passage it states God is not like men that he should lie. Moses is called god, the context of Acts 5:3 says you have not lied to men but to God. And speaks of the Holy Spirit as a seperate being in its own right. Actually Jacob said he saw a man which was described as Angelic, this Angel was later revealed to be God when Jacob said I have seen God face to face. God didn’t die on the cross, the human nature of Jesus did, Jesus was 100% God and 100% human, the 100% human part of him was mortal and suffered and died, the divine immortal part unable to die ascended to heaven as a spirit, resurrected by the Father.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
  8. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Actually it says God bears no resemblance to his creation and he is only One, this is believed by all Christians. We believe God in spirit is incomparable to all of his creations. And he is one and doesn’t beget other deities.
     
  9. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes I’m an Arabic speaking Christian who calls God Ilah or Allah as a title not as a name, if you look in our Bibles in Arabic you’d see God revealed himself to Moses as YHWH (يهوه in Arabic) not as Allah. Yazidis aren’t Abrahamic, they are Monotheists, but hey so we’re Manichaens, they mix the aspects of numerous religions together, including Islam and Christianity. Ho Theos means the god, it still is a generic refference which can be used for any deity. Ho Theos still corresponds to the Hebrew world Elohim, Ho Theos is also a title not a name. Nabateans called him Dhushara, Meccans called him Allah of Al Kaaba. Paran is in the modern day Negev desert, Mt Sinai as spoken by Paul is in modern day Egypt in the Sinai peninsula also called Jabal Musa in Arabic. The first concept and mention of Man gods also date back to the near and far east way before Rome existed. The Sinai peninsula was geographically considered as part of the Roman province of Arabia and as part of Arabia by the Romans. Midianites were nomads and frequently travelled place to place to tend to their people’s needs and their flocks. Exodus 3:1 doesn’t place the location of Mt Sinai in Midian, it places the Midianites in Mt Sinai. There’s evidence from the Bible that Mt Sinai was outside of Midian:

    Numbers 10:29 and 30
    When the Israelites were preparing to leave Sinai, Moses asked his Midianite in-laws to stay with them. Moses said, "you know where we should camp in the wilderness, and you will be as eyes for us" (Numbers 10:31). Hobab, the Midianite, son of Reuel, replied, "I will not come, but rather will go to my own land and relatives" (Numbers 10:30). This indicates that Mt. Sinai was not located in the place where Moses' Midianite in-laws lived.

    Exodus 18:27
    The Bible tells us that Moses' father-in-law, Jethro, lived in Midian (e.g., Exodus 3:1). After the Exodus, Jethro came to meet Moses at Sinai (Exodus 18:5). Following his visit the Bible informs us that Jethro "went his way into his own land" (Exodus 18:27). Since Jethro reentered Midian after leaving Mt. Sinai, we must conclude that the Bible places Mt. Sinai outside Midian's borders.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  10. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here was the meaning of Moses being called god:

    http://bib.irr.org/was-moses-god-exodus-416-and-71


    And here is the Holy Spirit being called God, a there’s a big difference in context and word usage:

    https://biblehub.com/bsb/acts/5.htm
     
  11. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    The Qur'an is simply saying that Allah does not beget like humans do. Otherwise, he would never have said he needs a wife inorder to have a son.

    Psalm 2:7: 7I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you.
     
  12. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    Numbers and Hosea used “son of man” as idiomatic for a human being. The point is that God is not like a human being and does not lie, etc.


    When Jesus uses the title “Son of Man” he is referring to Daniel 7:13-14:


    Daniel 7:13-14 New International Version (NIV)

    13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

    My Jewish Study Bible says the one like a son of man is a heavenly figure. Jewish commentator Rashi says it is the King Messiah, who Christians believe is Jesus.

    As Jesus said before the high priest at His trial:

    Matthew 26 63 But Jesus kept silent. Then the high priest said to Him, “By the living God I place You under oath: tell us if You are the Messiah, the Son of God!”

    64 “You have said it,”f]">[f] Jesus told him. “But I tell you, in the futureg]">[g] you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”K)" data-cr="#cen-HCSB-24119K">[h]

    Jesus is quoting Psalm 110:1 and Daniel 7:13.

    65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! Why do we still need witnesses? Look, now you’ve heard the blasphemy! 66 What is your decision?”i]">[i]

    They answered, “He deserves death!” 67 Then they spit in His face and beat Him; others slapped Him 68 and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah! Who hit You?”


    God did not die; the Son of God died as a human being. Jesus resurrected in material form.


    The Lord’s prayer is the prayer Jesus told His disciples to pray:


    Matthew 6:

    9 “Therefore, you should pray like this:

    Jesus was sinless even Islam teaches this.

    Moses being called God?


    NET Bible commentary:

    1 tn The word “like” is added for clarity, making explicit the implied comparison in the statement “I have made you God to Pharaoh.” The word אֱלֹהִים (’elohim) is used a few times in the Bible for humans (e.g., Pss 45:6; 82:1), and always clearly in the sense of a subordinate to GOD – they are his representatives on earth. The explanation here goes back to 4:16. If Moses is like God in that Aaron is his prophet, then Moses is certainly like God to Pharaoh. Only Moses, then, is able to speak to Pharaoh with such authority, giving him commands.
     
  13. Yi-man

    Yi-man Member

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    Ok no problem, if you believe the name of GOD is yahweh and call him as such then that's a matter for you. ALLAH swt makes clear His name:

    Quran 57
    Bismillah irahmah neraheem - in the name of the most merciful, the most merciful

    1: Whatever is in the heavens and earth exalts Allah, and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

    2: His is the dominion of the heavens and earth. He gives life and causes death, and He is over all things competent.

    3: He is the First and the Last, the Ascendant and the Intimate, and He is, of all things, Knowing.

    4: It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah, of what you do, is Seeing.

    5: His is the dominion of the heavens and earth. And to Allah are returned [all] matters.

    and as Lanes Arabic Lexicon confirms:

    ALLAH:

    "Allah ... is a proper name applied to the Being Who exists necessarily, by Himself, comprising all the attributes of perfection, a proper name denoting the true god ... the al being inseparable from it, not derived..."

    When does Yahweh first appear in antiquity?
    There is no record in the First Century showing Romans considered the Egyptian Penninsula as being Arab land.

    [​IMG]


    Yes, we know Romans were heavily influenced by the mystery pagan beliefs of old.

    I look forward to seeing a dated map proving this.


    You Christians seem very sure of where Abraham and Moses pbut ventured, yet the Jews themselves believe these things to be in the minds of men rather than historical facts on the ground, owing to a distinct lack of archaeology:

    Where is Mt. Sinai?
     
  14. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You forget the Arabic lexicon written by sir Edaward William Lane, treats Allah as a proper noun when in Islamic context not in generic linguistic context. Here is a refutation of the claim Allah is a proper noun, one of these refutations was done here on Christian forums:

    Is allah the "proper noun" name of God?


    Allah:The Noun and the Name – The Root of Confusion

    Mt Sinai wasn’t considered part of Egypt until recently, it was considered as part of Asia, Jerusalem post is blocked where I’m from, I prefer not to reffer outside of scripture and basic archaeology. Jews aren’t sure where Mt Sinai is so you’ll find varying opinions in Judaism:

    Where Is Mount Sinai? - Why don’t the rabbis know where it is?

    Most indications in scripture and archaeology confirm Mt Sinai to be in the Sinai peninsula, which is why it is called Mt Sinai after all. The Nabataeans made Sinai as part of their kingdom shortly before the Romans annexed the Nabatean kingdom, the Romans made the Nabatean kingdom their new province of Arabia Petraea. The Nabatean kingdom and Roman province of Arabia Petraea can be viewed here:


    upload_2018-9-23_21-43-35.png
     

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    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  15. Yi-man

    Yi-man Member

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    ALLAH is the revealed name of God in the Qur'an, as such Muslims view it as a proper noun.

    59 Surah Hashr verses 23-24:
    23 Allah is He than whom there is no other god, The Sovereign, The Holy One, The Source of Peace (and Perfection). The Guardian of Faith, The Preserver of Safety, The Exalted in Might, The Irresistible, The Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.
    24 He is Allah! The Creator, The Evolver, The Bestower of Forms (or colors). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: Whatever is in the heavens and on earth doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might the Wise.

    The Jews stopped saying his name Thousands of years ago, and have forgotten it. The Christians were never told his name as it doesn't appear even once in the NT.

    There is no basic archaeology showing Mount Sinai is in Egypt. There's scarcely any evidence showing Jews were in the Sinai Penninsula, beyond small groups of travellers, let alone evidence showing Millions of Jews wandered around the desert for 40 years. How did they manage to evade the Egyptian forces stationed around at mines and forts in the Sinai Penninsula?


    Only after the 4th Century thanks to Constantine's pagan mother, who single handedly decided on the locations of important biblical sites :/

    Strasbo was a Greek geographer who lived from 64 BC to 24 AD and here's a reproduction of his map based on his writings:

    [​IMG]

    As you can see Arabia was not understood to be part of Egypt, and this is how Paul understood it when he said, Mount Sinai was in Arabia.

    Irrelevant. We are attempting to understand how First Century Romans and Jews understood viewed Arabia.
     
  16. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Allah in Islamic context is a proper noun, not in general linguistic context though. The Jews knew his name as the four letter Tetragrammaton YHWH, they haven’t forgot his name otherwise we wouldn’t see mention of the Tettragramaton anywhere, they just choose not to say it because it’s to holy. Early Christians were Jews and knew the name YHWH. The Egyptians has forts in northern Sinai around the coast near what is now Gaza, the Sinai desert around MT Sinai was left unoccupied due to harsh conditions and raids by nomads. Constantine’s mother Helena was a Christian, I don’t know why you claim certain historic figures as pagan without proof. Jews generally understood Mt Sinai was in the Sinai peninsula. If Mt sinai was in the modern Arabian peninsula why does the Bible say it’s outside the boundaries of Midian. The map you show indicates my point, Sinai was considered as part of of the Roman Empire’s province of Arabia’s. The Roman province of Egypt did not extend to encompass the Sinai peninsula. Here is the Roman province of Arabia:

    Arabia Petraea - Wikipedia

    upload_2018-9-24_0-28-23.png


    upload_2018-9-24_0-29-29.jpeg


    upload_2018-9-24_0-30-16.png
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  17. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here are more detailed, actuate, and colored maps of Strabo, Strabo didn’t consider the Sinai peninsula to be part of Egypt, but of Asia proper. Which would correspond to the other maps and the Roman province of Arabia:

    upload_2018-9-24_0-43-37.jpeg


    upload_2018-9-24_0-44-9.jpeg
     
  18. AskTheFamily

    AskTheFamily Junior Member

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    The names of God are the sacred leaders he appoints, the guides, the drivers, the witnesses, and his proofs.

    The name of God is the station of the holy spirit.
     
  19. anatolian

    anatolian Senior Veteran

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    There is this incarnation of the Word of God in Quran.

    3:45 "When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah)"

    4:171 "O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector."

    So Isa (aleyhissalam) was a Word from Allah but not ALLAH. The Quranic concept is very clear.
     
  20. AskTheFamily

    AskTheFamily Junior Member

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    Jesus is the word of truth by which people differ and dispute, he was a past instance of the great tiding, a true king by which God channeled his light and fabrics of love to creation, and indeed love of the family of the reminder that God sealed revelations through, their love is a also a great tiding, and people turn aside from it and on the day of judgment people will know it's tiding then and the immense favors they will be asked about (Suratal Saad ending).

    Incarnations don't make sense, because God cannot be confined or limited see Suratal Ikhlaas/Tawheed (3rd last Surah).
     
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