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Where DO people get the "secret rapture" doctrine from?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Jamdoc, Apr 24, 2021.

  1. CleanSoul

    CleanSoul Member

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    Lets not forget the parallel verses in Luke 17:24-37:

    34 I tell you, on that night there will be two people in bed; one will be taken, the other left. 35 And there will be two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left.

    Verse 37 is important.

    37 They said to him in reply, "Where Lord?" He said to them, "Where the body is, there also will the vultures gather."

    So, in the case of Noah, the unbelievers were swept away. And in the above verses, the unbelievers were taken. Not to heaven, but where they would be devoured by vultures. Referring to hell?

    In that scenario, you would want to be left behind. This has been talked about for a long time, I only recently heard of it.

    It could be, from what I have studied, that the righteous will meet Jesus in the air, (a kind of rapture, perhaps) then He will destroy all evil, and evil ones on earth, (sweep them away, like in the time of Noah?) This will be the final judgement, we will receive our eternal bodies, either heavenly, or damned. Then the new heaven and the new earth will be established.

    If you get rid of all the misinterpreted, fancy mumbo jumbo, seven years, one thousand years, pre, mid, post, that no one understands, then the above makes the most sense.

    The content of Revelation, as a wise person once said, was meant to be a mystery, not a riddle to solve.
     
  2. CleanSoul

    CleanSoul Member

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    I agree that there have been various antichrists throughout history. As far as the mark of the beast, it is thought to be not a physical mark, but one of working for, (using your hand) or supporting and following,(using your mind). So, the "mark" is actually not a visible physical mark, but one of supporting, following, working for the antichrist.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe there will be a...

    #1. Pre-Trib Rapture (1 Cor. 15) (1 Thess. 4), and
    #2. Mid Trib Gathering Up By Angels (Olivet Discourse verses).

    So when His disciples asked about the end destination of where these people (the remaining Elect) will be taken, I believe Jesus was referring to His Second Coming. That is where they are ultimately being taken to (Although they will temporarily be in God's Kingdom for a short time missing out on the Wrath of God before the battle). But they are ultimately being taken for the battle. The birds are the saints. For we shall soar high on wings like eagles (Isaiah 40:31). The marriage supper is not a literal feast but it is the battle of Armageddon with Jesus conquering the the nations of this world that will come up against Him. The marriage supper is a metaphor for battle.
     
  4. CleanSoul

    CleanSoul Member

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    That's okay, thanks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    That's alright if you don't accept such verses.
    I will post them later for others to see (Lord willing).
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Over 100 years ago, a teaching was promoted, saying that before any disasters would happen, God will take His people up to live in heaven and they would return with Him for the Millennium.

    This teaching is not found in the Bible, as Dr John Walvoord; a rapture proponent, did actually admit. Scriptures like John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess. 4:15-17 are touted as rapture proofs, but they pertain to the end of the Millennium and at the Return of Jesus respectively and in no way do they, or any other verses say anyone will go to live in heaven.
    Jesus refutes that false idea in John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

    What we Christians are all exhorted to do when disaster strikes, is to pray for the strength and God given protection to survive that Day, 1 Cor. 10:11-13, 1 Peter 1:7 and to be found worthy to live in the holy Land, as the Israelites of God. 1 Peter 1:9-10

    Remember this truth: all the promises of God to Israel now applies to Christians. Galatians 3:26-29, 6:14-16 Jesus came to extend salvation to all who will accept it and now we are His people, bought by Jesus’ blood, chosen by Him and destined to be with Him on earth forever. Isaiah 49:8, Revelation 5:9-10
     
  7. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Yes, the "thief in the night" quotation.

    The error people make is that in modern days we have the image of a "cat burglar" sneaking in and out of a house without anyone being aware...all done in secret.

    However, in Jesus' time and place, people slept in the central room where all the thievable goodies would also be. They didn't have "cat burglars." Jesus gave us the modus operandi of "thieves in the night" in His day and time:

    No man can enter into a strong man’s house and despoil his goods, unless he will first bind the strong man; and then he will despoil his house. -- Mark 3

    So the point Jesus makes about the "thief in the night" is that the moment of arrival will be suddenly and unexpected...but it won't be a secret. People will know that it happened.
     
  8. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Yes. A person's eschatology might be totally wrong, yet he may still believe in the salvational truths.

    As Paul told us in Romans 12, some things are debatable.
     
  9. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Good times...good times.

    Apparently.
     
  10. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    I'm pretty sure that by Revelation 21, none of us will physically be on the same ball of rock we physically are on right now.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Rapture:
    (The Angel Body Type Resurrection of the Saints to Heaven):


    1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”​

    1 Corinthians 15:51-54


    “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
    Luke 20:36

    “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”
    Matthew 22:30

    “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.”
    John 1:12

    “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
    1 Corinthians 15:44

    “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.”​

    Matthew 25:10

    “And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.”
    John 14:3

    “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”​


    The Flesh and Blood
    Body Type Resurrection of the Saints:

    (Which Takes Place at the Beginning of the Millennium,
    and the Final New Earth):


    John 5:29 GNV

    “And they shall come forth, that have done good, unto the resurrection of life:”
    Acts 24:15 DRA

    “Having hope in God, ... that there shall be a resurrection of the just...”​

    Daniel 12:2

    “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, ... to everlasting life,”
    1 Corinthians 6:14

    “And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.”
    Romans 6:8

    “Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:”
    John 11:24

    “Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
    Luke 14:14

    “And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”
    Matthew 22:31-32

    “But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
    Revelation 21:3

    "Behold, ...God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."
    Revelation 20:4-5

    “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.”
    Isaiah 26:19

    “Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.”
    Ezekiel 37:1-10 (NKJV)

    “The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry. And He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

    So I answered, “O Lord God, You know.”

    Again He said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! Thus says the Lord God to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.” ’ ”

    So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone. Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.

    Also He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.” ’ ” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.”​
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    John 3:13 (KJB) says,

    “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
    It is true. “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
    (1 Corinthians 15:50).

    This is because in the Rapture we will be like the angels of God and not men. Jesus already said this before.

    Luke 20:36

    “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”
    Matthew 22:30

    “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.”​

    But Jesus did imply that believers will go to Heaven where He is because He said,

    “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” (John 14:3).
     
  13. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Honestly, I have no desire to be like the angels.
    they were not created in the image of God.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Is this merely what you prefer or do you not believe that the Scriptures talk about how the saints who are Raptured will be like the angels of God? Paul says it is sown a natural body, but it is raised a spiritual body.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Jesus is said to be made a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:7). So they must be pretty glorious according to God's Word. Who are we to say we know better than God and say things like... “I have no desire to be like the angels.” We don't get to pick and choose how things are going to be in the Kingdom of God. Even if you do not like that idea, you have to take it by faith that God knows more than us, and it will be more amazing than we think. But you have to believe God is rewarder to those who seek Him. So I am pretty sure God knows what He is doing. So if His Word says He will make the saints to be like the angels of God, I am sure it will not be a disappointment. For it is written:

    “For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” (Romans 8:18).
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
  16. CleanSoul

    CleanSoul Member

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    Yes, Jesus ascended, meaning under his own power he took himself to heaven. Man cannot do that. We do know Mary was assumed, or, taken to heaven, and also Enoch, Elijah, Moses, maybe others.

    Also, consider Philippians 3:21: He will change our lowly body to conform with his glorified body by the power that enables him also to bring all things into subjection to himself.

    Some things we do not need to try to understand, because we can't, in my opinion. Too much digging and self-interpretation is done all too often because we want so badly to know. Didn't our first parents want badly to know?
     
  17. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    The rapture of 1 Corinthians 15 occurs at the second coming, at the mid-trib point.

    Notice at the 1 Corinthians rapture, the MYSTERY of God is accomplished, at the last trump:

    1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Jesus returns to earth in Revelation 11:15, and makes the kingdom’s of the world His kingdom.

    At the same point in time the 7th trumpet sounds, which is the last trump in Revelation, and the mystery of 1 Corinthians 15 is accomplished:

    Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    That this is the mid-trib is clear because the two witnesses who prophecy for 3.5 years, the last half of the tribulation show up in Revelation 11:

    Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
     
  18. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    The preterists claim the end ended, but no one noticed.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I don't believe any saints have ascended to Heaven. They are currently in Abraham's Bosom or Paradise. Only in the Rapture whereby the saint's bodies are changed to be like that of angels will they be able to inherit the Kingdom (Heaven). Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. For in the Rapture, the dead will rise first (No doubt they will be rising out of Abraham's Bosom). Then the rest of those who are alive will be caught up in the air.

    Now, your probably may be thinking, “What about Elijah ascending to Heaven?“

    Well, I believe Elijah died normally, and he went to Paradise or Abraham's bosom in Sheol (upon his death). The reference to his going to Heaven was his travel up through the 1st Heaven (Which is the atmosphere, clouds, and or sky). I believe Elijah was merely being transported to another place on the Earth by way of God's airline. For later in 2 Chronicles 21, the wicked king Jehoram receives a letter from Elijah. So Elijah never left the Earth. Note: If Elijah did go to the Third Heaven, then the words of Jesus are not true in John 3:13. No man leading up from the point in time of when Christ talked to Nicodemus could have ascended (except Jesus). Also, it does not make any sense that Elijah would be riding a chariot up into the sky to go to Sheol, either. Sheol is down below in the heart of the Earth. So Elijah on his chariot ride would have been headed in the wrong direction if the chariot's destination was Sheol (Which is in the heart of the Earth). The story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch is a loose parallel of Elijah and his chariot travel. For in the New Testament story, Philip sees the eunuch traveling by chariot (just as Elijah traveled by chariot). In the New Testament story, Philip is transported by the Holy Spirit to another location on the Earth, just as Elijah was transported to another location on the Earth.

    In Philippians 3:21: The apostle Paul says,
    “Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,...”

    I have heard many Christians today say that this is a glorified body and it is different from our human body. Some have suggested that Jesus did not have any blood.

    See this article here:
    Question: You said that Jesus had no blood in His resurrected body. But He has flesh and bones. The Bible says that the life of the flesh is in the blood, so how can He have flesh without blood?

    Some have said that the glorified bodies will be like that of angels. Some think it will be sort of like an angel human hybrid. See this article here:

    What Will the Resurrected Bodies of the Righteous Be Like?

    Jesus clearly demonstrated that he had flesh and bones, and he was not a spirit.
    Yes, I believe he had blood, too.

    “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” (Luke 24:39).

    I believe that the Lord's body is the same as it always was with the exception that it was immortal now (See: Revelation 1:18). For the Lord's body has to remain the same because he lives to forever make intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 says, “...he ever liveth to make intercession for them.” So Jesus' flesh or DNA could not have changed. Jesus still had to have the flesh of Adam in order to redeem us even after He was risen. Jesus could not choose to change His flesh to horse flesh after the resurrection. That would destroy the idea of him forever living to make intercession for us. So he could not change his nature to be like that of angels, either.

    As for Paul's statement about how he looks for His Savior Jesus (Philippians 3:20), and then Paul refers to how He will change their vile body to be like Christ's (Which is no doubt physical):

    Well, we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word. If this was the only verse on the resurrection, then we would conclude that is the only resurrection that there is. There is a reason Paul is referring to the final resurrection. Verse 10 (Philippians 3:10) establishes how Paul desires to know Him and the power of His resurrection. This would be His physical resurrection. So Paul keeps with that theme or line of thinking. Paul later reveals a mystery to the Corinthians about the Rapture and it's uniqueness (See: 1 Corinthians 15:50-54). Paul clearly says that it is sown a natural body, but it is raised a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44). Jesus made it clear that we will be like that of angels of God. Jesus was not changed into being like an angel after the resurrection. He was made a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:7). Yet, we know that in the Rapture, we will be changed to be like the angels of God (Matthew 22:30, 1 Corinthians 15:44).
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So let me get this straight. Jesus returns in the middle of the tribulation and then the two witnesses preach for 3 and a half years after that?

    If so, that doesn't make any sense.
     
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