Where did the Reformers get the Authority to Change the Bible?

Phantasman

Newbie
May 12, 2012
4,953
226
Tennessee
✟34,626.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
The source you provided says that there were Jews in the Roman Army. Nobody would dispute that. I dispute the 10% figure for a great number of reasons that are not worth hashing out, as you're leaving the forum anyway.

I agree with you that this place is draining, mostly consisting of Christians bickering with Christians about things that I don't consider to be of any practical importance. I guess it's a matter of taste.

Thanks. We'll leave out the percentage. My point was that the early Christians wouldn't serve in the Army because it went against what Jesus taught. The Jews didn't have a problem with "putting death to others" as is a result from OT teachings. The Jews called for the death of Jesus, as well as stoning Stephen and historically eventually killing most of the disciples. Saul's story to become Paul is a great example of the OT to NT change in character.

As I said once before, the OT was a time of angels, before Truth and Light. And angels continue to mislead man, IMO. Islam being a good example growing from the line of Ishmael from an "angel". Stephen was killed for saying that the "burning bush" was an angel. From my decades of study, I can see the "angel of light's" works.

You are spot on by "matter of taste".
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,457
26,885
Pacific Northwest
✟732,144.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
He removed several books because he did not believe in purgaory.

False.

Luther did not reject the Deuterocanonicals "because Purgatory"; Luther questioned the authority of 2 Maccabees even while he himself still believed in Purgatory. Luther questioned the authority of 2 Maccabees on the basis of the Fathers, in particular St. Jerome. Luther, even while believing in Purgatory, regarded the use of 2 Maccabees in defense of Purgatory untenable on this account. This is a standard canard that gets brandied about--by both Catholics and Protestants--but which simply does not accurately reflect the historical Luther.

From a somewhat antagonistic source: Luther: Purgatory is "Quite Plain" in 2nd Maccabees

From a more Luther-friendly source: Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Why Luther Removed 2 Maccabees from the Bible

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: St_Worm2
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Thanks. We'll leave out the percentage. My point was that the early Christians wouldn't serve in the Army because it went against what Jesus taught. The Jews didn't have a problem with "putting death to others" as is a result from OT teachings. The Jews called for the death of Jesus, as well as stoning Stephen and historically eventually killing most of the disciples. Saul's story to become Paul is a great example of the OT to NT change in character.

As I said once before, the OT was a time of angels, before Truth and Light. And angels continue to mislead man, IMO. Islam being a good example growing from the line of Ishmael from an "angel". Stephen was killed for saying that the "burning bush" was an angel. From my decades of study, I can see the "angel of light's" works.

You are spot on by "matter of taste".

Ok. I see where you're coming from there. Interesting thoughts. Thank you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phantasman
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,457
26,885
Pacific Northwest
✟732,144.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
What were the changes made to the Bible by the reformation? It was my understanding that at the time, in 16th century Europe, Catholics were placing church teaching and tradition on a level equal to Scripture and this was one of the 'triggers' leading to the reformation.

Not quite.

The "spark" of the Reformation, fundamentally, was the abuses concerning indulgences. Some of the German princes were tasked with finding ways to help fund the buidling of St. Peter's in Rome. This led to the selling of indulgences and notorious abuses, among the very and absolute worst of these indulgence sellers was Johan Tetzel who went around, under the authority of Albert, Archbishop of Mainz and Magdeburg. Tetzel made a name for himself by being quite the salesman, coining phrases and making long fire and brimstone sermons to get the people to cough up their coin; one such jingle went, "As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs", and most infamously Tetzel claimed that with an indulgence he could promise forgiveness to the man who "violated the mother of God herself".

Luther began preaching against the selling of indulgences while serving in Wittenburg. Ultimately these abuses reached a point in which Luther did two things:

Firstly he wrote a letter to the Archbishop of Mainz, Albert (not knowing that Tetzel was acting by Albert's own authority) imploring the Archbishop to act swiftly because men like Tetzel were ultimately bringing shame to both Albert himself as well as to the Pope in Rome. This letter was tactful, reverential, and respectful.

Secondly he nailed his famous Ninety-Five Theses on the church door in Wittenburg. This wasn't quite the bombastic moment many think it was: for one the theses were written in Latin, second the nailing of a document on the church door was akin to pinning something to a university bulletin board--it was an open invitation for academic debate. Only fellow accademics would have understood Latin and been able to engage in the debate. However without Luther's knowledge or permission some of his students (Luther was a priest as well as a teacher at the University of Wittenburg) took the Theses, translated them into German, and took advantage of a fairly new piece of technology: the printing press. As such Luther's Ninety-Five Theses began to be circulated around parts of Germany--and some people, notably Albert of Mainz, didn't take too kindly to an uppity Augustinian monk challenging his authority.

Yes, Luther did take issue with certain traditions (not all tradition); and Luther did take issue with abuses, but Luther had hoped, and pressed for, a debate and a meeting of the Church to address these issues and, in particular, to correct these abuses (Luther was hardly alone, there were many in the Church who were saying many of the same very things Luther was saying).

But the Reformation didn't begin because of Church Tradition (Luther had no problem with Tradition); and neither was the Reformation an attack on the Church, or about leaving Rome. The Reformation was about, from the perspective of the Evangelical Reformers, correcting abuses--notably theological abuses--which were seen as recent innovations which had crept into the Church and which needed to be resolved immediately because of the threat they posed to the Faith and the Faithful.

The Reformation is very frequently misunderstood, both by Protestants and Catholics. By Protestants who think the Reformation represents a heroic break with "the big bad Catholic Church" (which isn't true, the Reformers understood themselves as faithful Catholic Christians); and by Catholics who have been taught to demonize the Reformation as a rebellion against the Church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Goatee
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
First, this is not the topic, but to answer you, the Pope is the Bishop of Rome. Roman Catholics believe him to only be infallible when, speaking in communion with the other bishops of the Church, he speaks on a subject of faith and morals.

He is just as apt to put three spoons of sugar in his tea, or putting salt on his pancakes as I am, or you are. He still needs to pick up a calculator to figure out 5,609 times 83,297. I don't know the answer, and unless your a math whiz, you don't know it either, without picking up a pencil or calculator. (467,212,873--but I used a calculator to get the answer.)

Wow! You need to settle down. I was asking to get clarification, because I read this post in this thread:
But without an Ecumenical Council (and yes, Rome regards Trent as such, but only Rome receives it) there simply isn't any final ecclesiastical authority to reach a final and full conclusion to the matter. Neither Luther nor the Pope have this authority; only by the full consent of the Church in Council can something this important be determined.

-CryptoLutheran

We Orthodox have been telling Rome this for centuries but they don't listen...

You can't get the answer unless you have the equation.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
It's unfair to say that of Luther. He was a renowned Bible scholar and doctor. He translated the Bible into German, an accomplishment that some historians consider to be as significant as the production of the King James Version a century later. He did not just change anything because of a personal preference.

Why did he call James a book of straw? Because it conflicted with Sola Fide.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Why did he call James a book of straw? Because it conflicted with Sola Fide.
He didn't throw it out of the Bible, though, did he?

So yes, James is possibly the simplest book in the Bible. Luther contrasted it with Romans which he (and others) considered the most powerful. So what?
 
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,417
5,524
72
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟611,327.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Well, lots to say he did.
I think the truth is he considered the idea, and concluded that we needed to receive scripture as we had received it.
 
Upvote 0

StevenBelievin

Trust In God
Site Supporter
Mar 26, 2017
337
203
54
Fort Worth, TX
✟144,217.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
A simple question, perhaps, but let's take a closer look. First of all, I am not going to dispute the excesses and injustices that SOME Roman Catholics visited upon other people. This is NOT a forum on the Inquisition or the Crusades. Here, we are only speaking of Authority.

With that in mind, Luther was a Roman Catholic, Augustinian priest-monk. His ordination gave him the authority to do certain things. Celebrate the Mass, hear confessions, anoint the sick, and so on. He was also held a position as Theology Professor at the Wittenberg University 'Leucorea'. He gave lectures over the Psalms (1514-15), Letter to the Romans (1515-16), Letter to the Galatians (1516-17), and Letter to the Hebrews (1517-18). Here he obviously had the authority to lecture, grade papers, and all of the other things that most professors do.

He was also a composer, and he did several other things. However, nowhere in my research have I seen him receiving the authority to change the Bible--WHICH HE DID! What I want to know is, where did he get such authority.

Did he get it from God? No, because when the Bible was being codified in the third and fourth centuries, the Early Christian Fathers who were doing the job would have heard from God not to put this or that book in the Bible, just as they heard from God about The Shepherd of Hermes. These were holy men, true believers in Jesus Christ, following Him alone, trusting in the Holy Spirit to guide them to the Truth. If God had not wanted the Apocrypha in the Bible in the 15th century, do you think He would have put it in at the beginning?

Don't try to say that not all the Jews accepted those books, because, as we have already seen, the Early Church Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit had accepted them. And if we can't accept the authority for their decisions, then we must begin by throwing the whole Bible out the window and start again. I don't want to do that, and I don't believe any other Christian does.

Did Luther get his authority to change the Bible from the Pope? NO! Any other authority within the Church? Nope, not that either.

So, where did he (or any other Reformer) have the authority to change the Bible?

Please discuss.

None of the reformers changed the bible. We still have all the Greek manuscripts from before the reformation. Those are the manuscripts that are used in the modern translations.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Goatee
Upvote 0

Robert76

Robert
Jul 19, 2017
135
110
Central Ohio
✟7,841.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not quite.

The "spark" of the Reformation, fundamentally, was the abuses concerning indulgences. Some of the German princes were tasked with finding ways to help fund the buidling of St. Peter's in Rome. This led to the selling of indulgences and notorious abuses, among the very and absolute worst of these indulgence sellers was Johan Tetzel who went around, under the authority of Albert, Archbishop of Mainz and Magdeburg. Tetzel made a name for himself by being quite the salesman, coining phrases and making long fire and brimstone sermons to get the people to cough up their coin; one such jingle went, "As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs", and most infamously Tetzel claimed that with an indulgence he could promise forgiveness to the man who "violated the mother of God herself".

Luther began preaching against the selling of indulgences while serving in Wittenburg. Ultimately these abuses reached a point in which Luther did two things:

Firstly he wrote a letter to the Archbishop of Mainz, Albert (not knowing that Tetzel was acting by Albert's own authority) imploring the Archbishop to act swiftly because men like Tetzel were ultimately bringing shame to both Albert himself as well as to the Pope in Rome. This letter was tactful, reverential, and respectful.

Secondly he nailed his famous Ninety-Five Theses on the church door in Wittenburg. This wasn't quite the bombastic moment many think it was: for one the theses were written in Latin, second the nailing of a document on the church door was akin to pinning something to a university bulletin board--it was an open invitation for academic debate. Only fellow accademics would have understood Latin and been able to engage in the debate. However without Luther's knowledge or permission some of his students (Luther was a priest as well as a teacher at the University of Wittenburg) took the Theses, translated them into German, and took advantage of a fairly new piece of technology: the printing press. As such Luther's Ninety-Five Theses began to be circulated around parts of Germany--and some people, notably Albert of Mainz, didn't take too kindly to an uppity Augustinian monk challenging his authority.

Yes, Luther did take issue with certain traditions (not all tradition); and Luther did take issue with abuses, but Luther had hoped, and pressed for, a debate and a meeting of the Church to address these issues and, in particular, to correct these abuses (Luther was hardly alone, there were many in the Church who were saying many of the same very things Luther was saying).

But the Reformation didn't begin because of Church Tradition (Luther had no problem with Tradition); and neither was the Reformation an attack on the Church, or about leaving Rome. The Reformation was about, from the perspective of the Evangelical Reformers, correcting abuses--notably theological abuses--which were seen as recent innovations which had crept into the Church and which needed to be resolved immediately because of the threat they posed to the Faith and the Faithful.

The Reformation is very frequently misunderstood, both by Protestants and Catholics. By Protestants who think the Reformation represents a heroic break with "the big bad Catholic Church" (which isn't true, the Reformers understood themselves as faithful Catholic Christians); and by Catholics who have been taught to demonize the Reformation as a rebellion against the Church.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you for this information!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The Holy Spirit resides in that place when the wind stops blowing.
How have you charted it's travels? Or are you using the dancing flame method?

You must have some method for determining where and with whome the Holy Spirit resides?
What is the method you are using?

I do not use the "dancing flame" method. I follow what I have been taught, that authority comes from validly ordained bishops. As the apostles were validly ordained, and all of their successors (that have remained in the Church) are validly ordained, then I know where authority comes from. The Holy Spirit goes where he wills, and I cannot say that I can chart His course. However, as Luther and the other Reformers did not receive valid ordination to the episcopate, they cannot have been operating in the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

Here is a quote from him, and where you can look it up.

You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,'…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,459
3,771
Eretz
✟317,562.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
I follow what I have been taught, that authority comes from validly ordained bishops. As the apostles were validly ordained, and all of their successors (that have remained in the Church) are validly ordained, then I know where authority comes from.

Can a schismatic Roman bishop validly ordain? So if the church of Rome is in schism and has left The Church, it has no authority...
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Can a schismatic Roman bishop validly ordain? So if the church of Rome is in schism and has left The Church, it has no authority...

Perhaps. And likewise if the Eastern Patriarchates are the schismatics, then their churches ceased to have validity 960-odd years ago. Under that argument, it would entirely depend on which half of the Church was the valid one in 1054.

I don't think that either East or West actually makes that argument anymore. I think that both say that the other's clergy are valid under the apostolic succession.

But of course they don't have to say that, and could, in anger, revert to utterly anathematizing each other, as before. (Which gets to an underlying point about why I do not take any church's or clergyman's assertions of excessive authority any more seriously than I take the various claims of various churches to "never have changed" anything. It's patently untrue. They all have, and it's obvious when one looks at things now versus various points of the past. Then a great deal of ink is spilled and heat is expended to try to defend the essentially indefensible point that nothing has changed. That things have changed doesn't bother me. But claims that they haven't do bother me, because they're obviously untrue.)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,621
59
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
Can a schismatic Roman bishop validly ordain? So if the church of Rome is in schism and has left The Church, it has no authority...

Can a schismatic Eastern Orthodox Bishop validly ordain!
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I do not use the "dancing flame" method. I follow what I have been taught, that authority comes from validly ordained bishops. As the apostles were validly ordained, and all of their successors (that have remained in the Church) are validly ordained, then I know where authority comes from.

That's fine. By your definition you do not see any authority.
I don't use your definition becasue I've not found it in scripture.
Using scripture as the authority, I'm not able to verify your definition of authority.
Who your teachers were, I don't know that either.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Phantasman

Newbie
May 12, 2012
4,953
226
Tennessee
✟34,626.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
That's fine. By your definition you do not see any authority.
I don't use your definition becasue I've not found it in scripture.
Using scripture as the authority, I'm not able to verify your definition of authority.
Who your teachers were, I don't know them either.

I agree. Nothing gave reformers any authority to even formulate a Bible.

Paul says:
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

I do not see the OT, Revelations, etc. the Gospel. The Gospel were the words from Christ, son of God, as he walked and taught. Anything else follows men.
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Where did the Reformers get the Authority to Change the Bible?

They had the same authority as the so-called Church Fathers and the High Priest of the cult of Sol Invictus (aka Constantine)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I agree. Nothing gave reformers any authority to even formulate a Bible.

Paul says:
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

I do not see the OT, Revelations, etc. the Gospel. The Gospel were the words from Christ, son of God, as he walked and taught. Anything else follows men.

I assume authority comes from the Holy Spirit.
That's the authority I use to read scripture, no matter the source group.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
That's fine. By your definition you do not see any authority.
I don't use your definition becasue I've not found it in scripture.
Using scripture as the authority, I'm not able to verify your definition of authority.
Who your teachers were, I don't know that either.

Do the Scriptures say, anywhere in the Bible, that they are upholders of authority? I know Jesus said, "All authority has been given me in heaven and on earth." So, the Bible cannot have all the authority you think it has, can i?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
None of the reformers changed the bible. We still have all the Greek manuscripts from before the reformation. Those are the manuscripts that are used in the modern translations.

You seem to have missed the point of this thread. 7 books, and various other parts of the Bible were ruthlessly ripped out. I'm talking about the original Bible, the one with 73 books that, in Western Europe was being used from the 4th century until the 15th century, when Luther removed them.
 
Upvote 0