where did the devil come from?

[com7fy8]

Although the point about him being the serpent "who deceived the whole world" does seem like a reference to the Garden of Eden.

Well, I am thinking about how it says "deceives" . . . not only "deceived" > Revelation 12:9.

Also it still seems odd that Satan and a third of the angels would be expelled from heaven only to later gain access again...and then be kicked out all over again.

I have understood that he was cast out before the creation of Adam and Eve. But the battle mentioned in Revelation, if I remember correctly, does not say when.

I think of how "heaven" can mean the sky above the earth. And it can mean where Jesus is on the throne. So, I consider that when Satan was cast down "as lightning", that was before the creation of Adam and Eve. But then . . . maybe . . . perhaps . . . there is a sky-heaven battle, later, meant by Revelation, but not like the first one when Satan fell as lightning.

For me, what works is to know who wins even if I do not have clear scripture about when certain details happen.

 

[white gardenia]

No, I am just very interested in it for my own curiosity.

yes, you have some good insight...

 

[white gardenia]

Well, I am thinking about how it says "deceives" . . . not only "deceived" > Revelation 12:9.

I have understood that he was cast out before the creation of Adam and Eve. But the battle mentioned in Revelation, if I remember correctly, does not say when.

I think of how "heaven" can mean the sky above the earth. And it can mean where Jesus is on the throne. So, I consider that when Satan was cast down "as lightning", that was before the creation of Adam and Eve. But then . . . maybe . . . perhaps . . . there is a sky-heaven battle, later, meant by Revelation, but not like the first one when Satan fell as lightning.

Well...here are the verses in context. It seems clear from the rest of the chapter that this takes place concurrent with Christs time on earth...but im not positive (like so much in Revelations there is a bit of mystery)---

"1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

For me, what works is to know who wins even if I do not have clear scripture about when certain details happen.

Yes We know that God will be victorious...that is the important thing...

 

[com7fy8]

Ok, so that looks like the devil has been overcome and cast down to this earth before we who now have the "testimony of Jesus Christ" have come here.

 

[BobRyan]

As far as i can tell, the Bible contains no explanation as to where the devil comes from. The account of Lucifer as an angel who rebelled against God is nowhere to be found (except in some extra-Biblical texts such as Enoch)
According to Job 1:6 and Rev 12:10 Satan has access to the Throne of God where his purpose is to accuse the faithful. This apparently changes after the War in Heaven which is described in Rev 12:7-9. Although some may confuse this war in Heaven with the rebellion of Lucifer (as popularized in works like Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno) However the War in Heaven described in Revelations seems to occur after Christs crucifixion. So Satan's actual origin remains a mystery.
Could I be wrong on this? Are there any passages i'm unaware of which confirm the traditional account of Satan's fall?

The War in heaven came before the fall of Adam as Revelation 12 points out Satan was that "serpent of old" in the Garden of Eden.

In Rev 12 that war had continued to the time of Christ - as even Satan tempts Christ in the wilderness - but at the cross Satan was cast down to earth. The war reached that particular point at the cross.

Isaiah 14 and Ezek 28 tell us even more about Lucifer who fell and became Satan in so doing.

Isaiah 14
The Fall of Lucifer
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’

18 “All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.

=================== Ezek 28

Ezek 28

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.

18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”

 

[BobRyan]

As for "More info" -- by a more modern prophet than Enoch...


Fall of Lucifer Mar 14, 2017 #460
Satan plots the fall of mankind: Mar 14, 2017 #459
Adam and Eve fall - Mar 14, 2017 #458


1. Creation of mankind -- Feb 18, 2016 #1390
2. Satan and his angels after the war in heaven – before tempting mankind. Feb 18, 2016 #1391
3. Satan and his angels plot the fall of mankind - Feb 18, 2016 #1393
4. the fall of mankind Feb 18, 2016 #1394
5. Eve becomes tempter - Feb 18, 2016 #1395
6. Adam is shown the Gospel Feb 18, 2016 #1396

 

[Uber Genius]

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:7 is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

Hard to know where to start here.

While it is true that there is misinformation about the origin of the Nakash in Genesis and there is a drastic change in how the second temple Jew perceives ha Satan, the Zoroastrian inference is long since debunked as the radical shift in Zoroasterianism comes only when they come into contact with another more ancient monotheistic religion of Judaism.

Furthermore the gospel writers all take Jesus engagement of Satan literally not figuratively as your inference would seem to require.

There seem to be a lot of assumptions about this figure and few detailed accounts from both OT, NT, as well as intertestimental references.

 

[Uber Genius]

Here some research on Pauline references to Satan:

God of this age: Satan in the churches and Letters of the Apostle Paul

Abstract only.

 

[BobRyan]

yet not "impossible" to know

As for "More info" -- by a more modern prophet than Enoch...


Fall of Lucifer Mar 14, 2017 #460
Satan plots the fall of mankind: Mar 14, 2017 #459
Adam and Eve fall - Mar 14, 2017 #458


1. Creation of mankind -- Feb 18, 2016 #1390
2. Satan and his angels after the war in heaven – before tempting mankind. Feb 18, 2016 #1391
3. Satan and his angels plot the fall of mankind - Feb 18, 2016 #1393
4. the fall of mankind Feb 18, 2016 #1394
5. Eve becomes tempter - Feb 18, 2016 #1395
6. Adam is shown the Gospel Feb 18, 2016 #1396

 

[Radagast]

Wouldn't you agree that Revelations 12 is describing a sequence of events that is happening after Christ comes to earth?

No, Rev 12:4 describes the fall of Satan as well as Satan's attempt (through Herod) to kill Jesus.

 

[Dirk1540]

...the Zoroastrian inference is long since debunked as the radical shift in Zoroasterianism comes only when they come into contact with another more ancient monotheistic religion of Judaism.

By any chance can you go into more detail about this? About the objection that Old Testament theology shifts after the Israelites bump into the Zoroastrian religion! Years ago Zoroastrianism was a problem for me. I tried very hard to find good answers, not cheesy answers. I did eventually find very nicely articulated articles with the answers I was looking for and I tucked those answers away with my notes!

That was a very long time ago, sadly I accidentally had a portion of my stuff get thrown out and the good Zoroastrian material was in there. I remember the general reasoning that satified my objections vaguely, but not nearly as well articulated as the articles I had (I couldn't find them again). I think good material on it is hard to find because the objections aren't popular. Do you know of a source that really takles the objections thoroughly?

...also, the fact the you seem to reference WLC a lot tells me that you appreciate the same type of articulation that I do. Very often I'll hear several people explain something and I think that Craig's explanation is the most clear one. I would really like to have good info on it again, maybe I can ask @Yekcidmij also! It's my fault for not remembering who wrote the articles ugh! The articles got into specific documentary problems, problems of comparisons between the religions, etc, they were very detailed & precise!

 

[BobRyan]

Oh sure, but the passage that you replied with- "And the great dragon was thrown out, the ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan" ...isn't that a passage from Revelations 12 ?

Wouldn't you agree that Revelations 12 is describing a sequence of events that is happening after Christ comes to earth?

True - the focus there is on the war between Christ and Satan specifically as it pertains to the life of Christ and the dark ages that follow some tie after Christ goes to heaven.

But the war in heaven was fought before Adam and Eve were created -- Satan was already the devil when he meets Eve at the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Yet Satan suffers another huge defeat at the cross - and it is at that point that he is fully "restricted" to things pertaining this world, this planet -- possibly as wide an area as our solar system.

 

[BobRyan]

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)​

This bit from the Gospel of John can be taken as a possible inference that Satan may have had something to do with the activity of the Serpent in the Garden of Eden

Indeed - Revelation 12 calls him the "serpent of old" -- the very first one mentioned in the Bible.




Ezek 28

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.



14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.



16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

 

[JackRT]

True - the focus there is on the war between Christ and Satan specifically as it pertains to the life of Christ and the dark ages that follow some tie after Christ goes to heaven.

But the war in heaven was fought before Adam and Eve were created -- Satan was already the devil when he meets Eve at the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Yet Satan suffers another huge defeat at the cross - and it is at that point that he is fully "restricted" to things pertaining this world, this planet -- possibly as wide an area as our solar system.

So, Satan rebelled in prehistory and was defeated and then was defeated again at the resurrection but he is still roaming around free. So, I can only conclude that neither God or Jesus have ever defeated Satan. Is there any other conclusion other than the old panacea that "it is part of God's plan"?

 

[BobRyan]

So, Satan rebelled in prehistory and was defeated and then was defeated again at the resurrection

And will be defeated again at the 2nd coming for we see in Rev 20 he is to be bound and chained

And then again - at the end of the 1000 years an ultimate defeat.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So the defeat is in "stages".

1. He loses his place in heaven and cannot gain entrance back into the heavenly city. When he initially loses the war in heaven itself. But that war continued only on a wider stage.
2. He loses in his debate with God over Job - in Job 1 and 2. There he debates God before the heavenly intelligences as he claims to come to that meeting representing Earth. (At the temptation of Christ he reminds Christ that the earth has been given to him.. and he can give it to whomever he wishes). 2 Cor 4:4 he is called "the god of this world" -- even after the cross.
3. He loses at the cross - where his doom is made certain and his freedom to roam beyond earth and its territory is removed .. as Rev 12 states.
As we see in Rev 20
5. He loses again at the end of the 1000 years where he is consumed in the lake of fire.

but he is still roaming around free.

Indeed - on this earth - he is free to move around .. he can also go pretty much wherever man can go .. so that means our solar system.

So, I can only conclude that neither God or Jesus have ever defeated Satan.

If your view of war - is that war can only have one battle -- then you must be fairly new to planet earth..

 

[JackRT]

So Satan's defeat is in four stages? This calls into question not just the omnipotence but also the competence of God. Perhaps there is a better understanding?

 

[Uber Genius]

By any chance can you go into more detail about this? About the objection that Old Testament theology shifts after the Israelites bump into the Zoroastrian religion! Years ago Zoroastrianism was a problem for me. I tried very hard to find good answers, not cheesy answers. I did eventually find very nicely articulated articles with the answers I was looking for and I tucked those answers away with my notes!

That was a very long time ago, sadly I accidentally had a portion of my stuff get thrown out and the good Zoroastrian material was in there. I remember the general reasoning that satified my objections vaguely, but not nearly as well articulated as the articles I had (I couldn't find them again). I think good material on it is hard to find because the objections aren't popular. Do you know of a source that really takles the objections thoroughly?

...also, the fact the you seem to reference WLC a lot tells me that you appreciate the same type of articulation that I do. Very often I'll hear several people explain something and I think that Craig's explanation is the most clear one. I would really like to have good info on it again, maybe I can ask @Yekcidmij also! It's my fault for not remembering who wrote the articles ugh! The articles got into specific documentary problems, problems of comparisons between the religions, etc, they were very detailed & precise!

Four Testaments

See chap 3.

Much of the misrepresentations were a product of the German assumptions of late dates for both Old and New Testement texts. Long since falsified however theories built on these false foundation were not reexamined.

And I do think there was much Iranian influence on the Torah and Talmud. But from 2200 B.C. Not Zorastrian influence and certainly not monotheism as biblical accounts predate first hints of Zorastrian monotheism by 800 years.



And of coourse we always have scholarship like "Zeightgeist!" And scholars like Bill Maher to continue to foist this crap in an uncritical and untrained community.

 

[Uber Genius]

So Satan's defeat is in four stages? This calls into question not just the omnipotence but also the competence of God. Perhaps there is a better understanding?

Not sure how you are drawing the conclusion that because God destroys Satan's work in stages relying on disciples to do the lion share of destruction (Kingdom of God theology in the gospels) that it somehow entails God's incompetence. Please build out the necessary and sufficient conditions that force the gentle reader into adopting your proposal.

. 29“What do you want with us, Son of God? they shouted. “Have You comehere to torture us before the proper time?” Matt. 8:29.

There are consistent themes surprise at Jesus' coming before the final judgement.

That it surprised the demonic agents. Now you seem to be asking for a description or "Why," God operates the world in such a matter and if that does satisfied you intellect then God is a incompetent buffoon.

It is unclear to me how our comprehension and approval of God's administrative choices is germane given the omniscience, and omnipotent qualities that God possesses and that we clearly do not.

 

[Dirk1540]

Four Testaments

See chap 3.

Much of the misrepresentations were a product of the German assumptions of late dates for both Old and New Testement texts. Long since falsified however theories built on these false foundation were not reexamined.

And I do think there was much Iranian influence on the Torah and Talmud. But from 2200 B.C. Not Zorastrian influence and certainly not monotheism as biblical accounts predate first hints of Zorastrian monotheism by 800 years.



And of coourse we always have scholarship like "Zeightgeist!" And scholars like Bill Maher to continue to foist this crap in an uncritical and untrained community.

Ok thanks a lot I'll get the book! Lol Bill Maher, I'll never get over how brutal his 'Expert' strawmen defenders of Christianity were in Religulous.

 

[Erik Nelson]

As far as i can tell, the Bible contains no explanation as to where the devil comes from. The account of Lucifer as an angel who rebelled against God is nowhere to be found (except in some extra-Biblical texts such as Enoch)
According to Job 1:6 and Rev 12:10 Satan has access to the Throne of God where his purpose is to accuse the faithful. This apparently changes after the War in Heaven which is described in Rev 12:7-9. Although some may confuse this war in Heaven with the rebellion of Lucifer (as popularized in works like Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno) However the War in Heaven described in Revelations seems to occur after Christs crucifixion. So Satan's actual origin remains a mystery.
Could I be wrong on this? Are there any passages i'm unaware of which confirm the traditional account of Satan's fall?

Jude 1:9, Michael strove with the Devil over the body of Moses, over a thousand years before the events symbolized in Revelation 12:7-10