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Don't you know that the Roman Church appoints or elects its bishops as well? There is almost no difference between the ways that Apostolic Succession operates in these various church bodies, whether Catholic, Anglican, Eastern, Old Catholic, or etc.Those Churches do not include Anglicans and Lutherans, who left the Church and abandoned apostolic succession. They started appointing their own leaders.
I guess that comes down to what 'to wait' means. Does it mean do nothing? Does it mean go nowhere? Does it mean stay in Jerusalem? I am of the view it meant stay in Jerusalem.Fair enough, and thank you.
Now please address the notion that doing so was contrary to the idea that 'to wait' was the instruction.
I haven't decided and since you schooled me a little, I'm interested in what you might have to say.
Thanks again.
It's the same basic process now as Peter did then. 'Who gets the short straw basically' and it is corrupt.
What does that mean?Those Churches do not include Anglicans and Lutherans, who left the Church and abandoned apostolic succession. They started appointing their own leaders.
How is this corrupt? Besides, the voting for the Pope are not lots, nor short straws. They are elected in a Conclave, by secret ballot.
The cardinals hear two sermons before the election: one before actually entering the conclave, and one once they are settled in the Sistine Chapel. In both cases, the sermons are meant to lay out the current state of the Church, and to suggest the qualities necessary for a pope to possess in that specific time. The first preacher in the 2005 conclave was Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, the preacher of the papal household and a member of the Capuchin Franciscan order, who spoke at one of the meetings of the cardinals held before the actual day when the conclave began. Cardinal Tomáš Špidlík, a former professor at the Pontifical Oriental Institute and a non-voting member (due to age) of the College of Cardinals, spoke just before the doors were finally closed for the conclave.
On the morning of the day designated by the Congregations of Cardinals, the cardinal electors assemble in St Peter's Basilica to celebrate the Eucharist. Then, they gather in the afternoon in the Pauline Chapel of the Palace of the Vatican and process to the Sistine Chapel while singing the Litany of the Saints. The Cardinals will also sing the Veni Creator Spiritus then take an oath to observe the procedures set down by the apostolic constitutions; to, if elected, defend the liberty of the Holy See; to maintain secrecy; and to disregard the instructions of secular authorities on voting. The Cardinal Dean reads the oath aloud in full; in order of precedence (where their rank is the same, their birthdate is taken as precedence), the other cardinal electors repeat the oath, while touching the Gospels. The oath is:
And I, (name), Cardinal (name), promise, vow and swear. Thus, may God help me and these Holy Gospels which I touch with my hand.
On the afternoon of the first day, one ballot (referred to as a "scrutiny") may be held, but is not required. If a ballot takes place on the afternoon of the first day and no-one is elected, or no ballot had taken place, a maximum of four ballots are held on each successive day: two in each morning and two in each afternoon. Before voting in the morning and again before voting in the afternoon, the electors take an oath to obey the rules of the conclave. If no result is obtained after three vote days of balloting, the process is suspended for a maximum of one day for prayer and an address by the senior Cardinal Deacon. After seven further ballots, the process may again be similarly suspended, with the address now being delivered by the senior Cardinal Priest. If, after another seven ballots, no result is achieved, voting is suspended once more, the address being delivered by the senior Cardinal Bishop. After a further seven ballots, there shall be a day of prayer, reflection and dialogue. In the following ballots, only the two names who received the most votes in the last ballot shall be eligible in a runoff election. However, the two people who are being voted on, if Cardinal electors, shall not themselves have the right to vote.[8]
The process of voting comprises three phases: the "pre-scrutiny", the "scrutiny", and the "post-scrutiny."
Pre-scrutiny
During the pre-scrutiny, the Masters of the Ceremonies prepare ballot papers bearing the words Eligo in Summum Pontificem ("I elect as Supreme Pontiff") and provide at least two to each cardinal elector. As the cardinals begin to write down their votes, the Secretary of the College of Cardinals, the Master of Papal Liturgical Celebrations and the Masters of Ceremonies exit; the junior Cardinal Deacon then closes the door. The junior Cardinal Deacon then draws by lot nine names; the first three become Scrutineers, the second three Infirmarii and the last three Revisers. New Scrutineers, Infirmarii and Revisers are not selected again after the first scrutiny; the same nine cardinals perform the same task for the second scrutiny. After lunch, the election resumes with the oath to obey the rules of the conclave taken anew when the cardinals again assemble in the Sistine Chapel. Nine names are chosen for new scrutineers, infirmarii, and revisers. The third scrutiny then commences, and if necessary, a fourth immediately follows. No changes in these rules were made by Benedict XVI in 2007. These rules were followed, so far as is known, given the secrecy of a conclave, in electing Pope Francis in March 2013.
Scrutiny
The scrutiny phase of the election is as follows: The cardinal electors proceed, in order of precedence, to take their completed ballots (which bear only the name of the individual voted for) to the altar, where the Scrutineers stand. Before casting the ballot, each cardinal elector takes a Latin oath, which translates to: "I call as my witness Christ the Lord who will be my judge, that my vote is given to the one who before God I think should be elected." If any cardinal elector is in the Chapel, but cannot proceed to the altar due to infirmity, the last Scrutineer may go to him and take his ballot after the oath is recited. If any cardinal elector is by reason of infirmity confined to his room, the Infirmarii go to their rooms with ballot papers and a box. Any such sick cardinals take the oath and then complete the ballot papers. When the Infirmarii return to the Chapel, the ballots are counted to ensure that their number matches with the number of ill cardinals; thereafter, they are deposited in the appropriate receptacle. This oath is taken by all cardinals as they cast their ballots. If no one is chosen on the first scrutiny, then a second scrutiny immediately follows. A maximum total of four scrutinies can be taken each day, two in the morning and two in the afternoon.
The oath when casting one's vote is therefore anonymous, since the name of the elector is no longer signed on the ballot with that of the candidate. (Previously, the ballot was signed by the elector, who included his motiff [unique identification code]. Then he folded it over at two places to cover his signature and motiff. After this, it was sealed with wax to result in a semi-secret ballot. See example above.) This was the procedure prior to 1945. The example above is a copy of the old three section semi-secret ballot, which was last used in the conclave of 1939. There was no oath taken when actually casting ballots, prior to 1621. Completely secret ballots (at the option of the cardinals present and voting) were sometimes used prior to 1621, but these secret ballots had no oath taken when the vote was actually cast. At some conclaves prior to 1621, the cardinals verbally voted and sometimes stood in groups to facilitate counting the votes cast. The signature and motiff of the elector covered by two folded-over parts of the ballot paper was added by Gregory XV in 1621, to prevent anyone from casting the deciding vote for himself. Cardinal Pole of England refused to cast the deciding vote for himself in 1549 (and was not elected), but in 1492 Cardinal Borgia (Pope Alexander VI) did cast the deciding vote for himself. Faced by the mortal challenge to the papacy emanating from Protestantism, and fearing schism due to several stormy conclaves in the late 16th and early 17th centuries, Gregory XV established this procedure to prevent any cardinal from casting the deciding vote for himself. Since 1945, a cardinal can again cast the deciding vote for himself, though the ⅔ majority rule has always been continued, except when John Paul II had modified that rule in 1996 (after 33 ballots, a simple majority was sufficient), with the ⅔ majority rule restored in 2007 by Benedict XVI.
Prior to 1621, the only oath taken was that of obedience to the rules of the conclave in force at that time, when the cardinals entered the conclave and the doors were locked, and each morning and afternoon as they entered the Sistine Chapel to vote. Gregory XV added the additional oath, taken when each cardinal casts his ballot, to prevent cardinals wasting time in casting "courtesy votes" and instead narrowing the number of realistic candidates for the papal throne to perhaps only two or three. Speed in electing a pope was important, and that meant using an oath so as to get the cardinals down to the serious business of electing a new pope and narrowing the number of potentially electable candidates. The reforms of Gregory XV in 1621 and reaffirmed in 1622 created the written detailed step-by-step procedure used in choosing a pope; a procedure that was essentially the same as that which was used in 2013 to elect Pope Francis. The biggest change since 1621 was the elimination of the rule that required the electors to sign their ballots resulting in the detailed voting procedure of scrutiny making use of anonymous oaths. This was perhaps the most significant change in the modern era. It was a significant change to the step-by-step voting procedure, since that detailed voting procedure was first created in 1621. It was Pius XII who made this change in 1945.
Once all votes have been cast, the first Scrutineer chosen shakes the container, and the last Scrutineer removes and counts the ballots. If the number of ballots does not correspond to the number of cardinal electors present (including sick cardinals in their rooms), the ballots are burnt, unread, and the vote is repeated. If, however, no irregularities are observed, the ballots may be opened and the votes counted. Each ballot is unfolded by the first Scrutineer; all three Scrutineers separately write down the name indicated on the ballot. The last of the Scrutineers reads the name aloud.
The Scrutineers add up all of the votes, and the Revisers check the ballots and the names on the Scrutineers' lists to ensure that no error was made. The ballots are then all burned by the Scrutineers with the assistance of the Secretary of the College and the Masters of Ceremonies. If the first scrutiny held in any given morning or afternoon does not result in an election, the cardinals proceed to the next scrutiny immediately. The papers from both scrutinies are then burned together at the end of the second scrutiny.
Now, seeing as how all of the Cardinals are moved by the Holy Spirit, we can be assured that the person chosen is the work of God, and not fancy politicking, and it is NOT a random process of short straw wins (or loses, based on the testimony of popes in the past).
Yes, there have been bad popes in the past, when politics overruled the process. In those times, there were also Electors who were not Cardinals, not even clergy. Several of the secular powers in Europe have had the ability to vote, and in some cases (such as the Holy Roman Empire) they have had the ability to override the process, and put in someone the Emperor wanted.
On the whole, however, if the Holy Spirit was NOT guiding the hierarchy of the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches, then why are they still alive 2000 years after the original Pentecost?
Your missing the point but then if you don't have the Holy Spirit how can you?I guess that comes down to what 'to wait' means. Does it mean do nothing? Does it mean go nowhere? Does it mean stay in Jerusalem? I am of the view it meant stay in Jerusalem.
Are you recommending that when someone starts swinging wildly because another has dared to say that he disagrees with something that's been posted...the best approach would be to let it pass unanswered?And fanning their fire so obviously burning already, event if slightly, helps how exactly?
That may seem predictable to you. However, the facts are otherwise. You can look around and see that it's quite one-sided. On this very thread, for example, I have been told that my church gave up Apostolic Succession and that Henry VIII founded it, neither of which is true. Look and see how I responded. Did I call names or tell the other person he ought to get off the forums, etc.? No. And I'm not praising myself in so saying because it's nothing unusual among the Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, or such here on CF.FWIW I do not think the coloring of the "information added" was purely incidental or innocent. The anti-Catholic fire already burning in the thread was something anyone else would be offended by if similar comments were made toward their Church.
Bunker Mentality rules with an iron monobrow.
Chose your poison carefully so as to avoid collision seems to be equally but hohomily effective....
Looks like Albion has earned a pass in the valley of the shadow of the dreaded anti-Catholicism tar and feathering.
So in effect what your saying is that God does not get involved in this selection process, nor Jesus or the Holy Spirit. It's just for the boys to decide who gets in or not. Great system that. Sound remarkably like the Mason's system.
I guess that comes down to what 'to wait' means. Does it mean do nothing? Does it mean go nowhere? Does it mean stay in Jerusalem? I am of the view it meant stay in Jerusalem.
Much like placing out a sheepskin before the breaking of the clay jar ...Only by the priest in the temple. Jesus came to fulfil the physical temples requirements. We are now the temple and instead of drawing lots we have the Holy Spirit to guide us. Something you should consider taking up because it will help lead you into all truth. Which you obviously need very much.
These are good points but not valid because lots were for use in the physical temple, we are now the temple and the Holy Spirit is or Guide not casting lots.
Well, aside from the fact that the College of Cardinals which you carefully described is only half that old, the hierarchies of a bunch of other churches are that old, too. Since these churches, taken as a whole, disagree on a lot, it's questionable whether age guarantees doctrinal correctness.On the whole, however, if the Holy Spirit was NOT guiding the hierarchy of the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches, then why are they still alive 2000 years after the original Pentecost?
Don't you know that the Roman Church appoints or elects its bishops as well? There is almost no difference between the ways that Apostolic Succession operates in these various church bodies, whether Catholic, Anglican, Eastern, Old Catholic, or etc.
Which you obviously need very much.
What does that mean?
This was dealt with pages ago and is off OP.No, @Guide To The Bible, God is involved. As you can read from the summary posted elsewhere, the Holy Spirit is invoked not once, but many times during the election process. Or have you decided that all of the election stuff is a big show for the public, and the electors wait on satan to show which one is the new pope. In which case, satan is stronger than God, and the gates of hell have prevailed, and all of God's work, including the Crucifixion and Resurrection, the coming of the Holy Spirit, and so on are invalid and void, and it wasn't until Martin Luther came along that God stepped in, and made Christians.
I really wish I could understand youMuch like placing out a sheepskin before the breaking of the clay jar ...
But never gave up their bishops or discontinued the succession. In addition, just about every Anglican bishop in our own time has Old Catholic or Eastern Orthodox consecrators in their Apostolic episcopal lineage, and your church acknowledges that both of those communions are in Apostolic Succession.The Anglicans broke with Church authority and abandoned Church doctrine, albeit gradually.
Not in my Anglican province, we don't. It is important to remember that while we may speak of things Anglican, there is no single worldwide Anglican jurisdiction but that the church in each country is self-governing and that there are several of them in some cases. It's the common worship and statements of belief that are the main points of connection among all of these. The Eastern Orthodox are somewhat like that, too.Today we find practicing gay Anglican "bishops", women "bishops", and others teaching multiple heretical doctrines under the umbrella of the Anglican Church.
Well, aside from the fact that the College of Cardinals which you carefully described is only half that old, the hierarchies of a bunch of other churches are that old, too. Since these churches, taken as a whole, disagree on a lot, it's questionable whether age guarantees doctrinal correctness.
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