WHERE DID THE BODY OF CHRIST BEGIN ?

[nolidad]

And you are saying that the original 12 apostles, when they preach the gospel in Matt-John, understood the same death burial and resurrection of Christ and preach that exact same gospel then?

No they preached the gospel of the kingdom. The gospel of grace did not begun to be preached until aftr Pentecost. If you look closely, Jesus sent the apostles out to preach the gospelof the kingdom. But once the leadership of Israel blasphemed the Spirit and rejected the King in Matthew 12, the apostles no longer were sent out to preach. Jesus began to prepare them to construct the church

 

[Guojing]

No they preached the gospel of the kingdom. The gospel of grace did not begun to be preached until aftr Pentecost. If you look closely, Jesus sent the apostles out to preach the gospelof the kingdom. But once the leadership of Israel blasphemed the Spirit and rejected the King in Matthew 12, the apostles no longer were sent out to preach. Jesus began to prepare them to construct the church

Yep, now you sound more like an Acts 2 dispensationalist.

As for me, I believe the gospel of the death burial and Resurrection of Christ could not have happen after Pentecost.

Peter used the death of Christ as a murder indictment to his Jewish listeners. He used his resurrection as proof that he is indeed the Jews promised Messiah. That is very different from the gospel of grace that was only revealed to Paul.

 

[nolidad]

Yep, now you sound more like an Acts 2 dispensationalist.

As for me, I believe the gospel of the death burial and Resurrection of Christ could not have happen after Pentecost.

Peter used the death of Christ as a murder indictment to his Jewish listeners. He used his resurrection as proof that he is indeed the Jews promised Messiah. That is very different from the gospel of grace that was only revealed to Paul.

YOu forget that much of Israel already knew of the crucifixion of Jesus! The gentile world didn't.

so Peter was addressing people familiar with the physical acts of Jesus' death! He then added the resurrection and Jesus is indeed the Messiah! It is the same gospel as Pauls, just presented in a differing manner crafted to an audience that knew of the facts of good friday.

The Jews already had a large backgrounds of knowledge while the gentile world Paul went to- had little background. So his presentation of the gospel did not need a large Jewish flavor to it.

 

[Guojing]

It is the same gospel as Pauls, just presented in a differing manner crafted to an audience that knew of the facts of good friday.

Now you are back to saying that the gospel of the Kingdom is the same as the gospel of grace, which is the confusing part. Let me try to understand what you mean by the following example from scripture

Lets look at Luke 9:6.

6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

This passage clearly states that the 12 were "preaching the gospel". But what gospel did they preach? Was it the same as what Paul said in 1 Cor 15?

 

[Dia Pisteos]

Topic, no. Approach, yes.

Hi to everyone, I hold that the church started with Acts 2 and ends at the Rapture. Only those who are saved within this period are of that body, the Body of Christ. All who have faith from Adam to the last man, prior to the Great White Thrown, are saved By God's Grace Through Faith within the Dispensation they lived in. We must remember that words are used to isolated dispensations and are not to be over-explained or under-explained. We don't want to get lost in semantics, but we do want to i.d. the dispensation as closely as possible with the administrative rule/understanding of how God is dealing with mankind during each dispensation, so don't get hung up on a word that may not fit a forced view that isn't correct into one of the dispensations. They speak for themselves, no need to beat a word into a legalistic box to prove an argument. God has always been Gracious, and salvation has always been through faith in God's Grace in all dispensations, regardless of the content of the salvific message they were given based upon the extent of the revelation they received.

 

[Dia Pisteos]

The body of Christ began when the first people were indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles received the indwelling Holy Spirit in John 20.

Therefore, the body of Christ began in John 20.

I understand the point you are making, "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" for indeed they were, but the church as far as it's beginning does not hinge on this verse, which is clear and true. While they, a few, were granted "to receive" the Holy Spirit prior to the actual beginning. The question I pose is this, what constitutes the Body of Christ, the Church of Christ, the Mystery of the Chruch not revealed to the OT saints? First, Christ had to die, raise from the Dead, ascend to the right hand of the Father and send the Holy Spirit to take His place. The body of literature we have is best allowed to express itself than to try and retrofit an isolated event into it. Where they going to be in the Chruch, yes. Did these few receive the Holy Spirit in advance of the Acts 2 occasion, yes, but that in and of itself does not constitute the beginning of the actual Body of Christ, because all the defining events that establish it as such had not yet happened?

 

[Dia Pisteos]

In Genesis, God formed Adam's body out of the dust. Adam became a living being when God breathed on/into him. This is because God breathed a spirit into the body.

A body isn't alive without the breath of God on it. Or in other words a spirit in it.

Acts 2:1-4 - says there was a sound from heaven as a rushing mighty wind (breath)... and that they were all filled with the Holy Spirit (spirit).

Acts 2 is where the Holy Spirit filled the Body of Christ.

Part of Jesus' ministry was forming the Body from the dust, then going to the father to send the Spirit to give it life.

I would like to point out too, several things that everyone can consider on this topic. Now, it may be mentioned elsewhere but I have not had the time to investigate all the post yet. First, the beginning of the Chruch was in keeping with the timeline of the calendar events that led up to Pentecost, this in and of itself is perhaps the most compelling and strongest support/argument that the Acts 2 position is the correct one as to the beginning of the Church. It would be hard pressed to argue of another beginning. Second, let me point out that Luke records the word "Chruch" in Acts 5 and Paul, after saved, points out that he was persecuting "The Way" which was the Jewish term for the "Church". Paul was attacking "The Way" i.e. the Chruch prior to His conversion. I doubt that many, perhaps none, would argue that "The Way" and "The Church" here are the same. Prior to Paul's conversion, he was on a mission to destroy "The Way" i.e. "The Chruch". The very fact that he admits this and that Luke records the word Chruch in Acts 5 teaches it's existence prior to Pauls conversion. The body of Christ, the Church, also called "The Way" by the Jews and the Government of Rome understood it that way too in Paul's reference before his accusers later in Acts.

 

[nolidad]

Now you are back to saying that the gospel of the Kingdom is the same as the gospel of grace, which is the confusing part. Let me try to understand what you mean by the following example from scripture

Lets look at Luke 9:6.

6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

This passage clearly states that the 12 were "preaching the gospel". But what gospel did they preach? Was it the same as what Paul said in 1 Cor 15?

I never said the gospel of the kingdom is the same as the gospel of grace!

The Luke 9 Gospel was the gospel of the kingdom (which preaching ended after the leadership of Israel committed the unpardonable sin in MAtt. 12).

1 Cor. 15 is the gospel of grace or the gospel of salvation.

 

[nolidad]

I understand the point you are making, "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" for indeed they were, but the church as far as it's beginning does not hinge on this verse, which is clear and true. While they, a few, were granted "to receive" the Holy Spirit prior to the actual beginning. The question I pose is this, what constitutes the Body of Christ, the Church of Christ, the Mystery of the Chruch not revealed to the OT saints? First, Christ had to die, raise from the Dead, ascend to the right hand of the Father and send the Holy Spirit to take His place. The body of literature we have is best allowed to express itself than to try and retrofit an isolated event into it. Where they going to be in the Chruch, yes. Did these few receive the Holy Spirit in advance of the Acts 2 occasion, yes, but that in and of itself does not constitute the beginning of the actual Body of Christ, because all the defining events that establish it as such had not yet happened?

No one had received the indwelling or baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to Acts 2.

The verse in JOhn 20:22 is not the apostles receiving the Holy spirit. It was them being authorized by Jesus to receive the Spirit. The verb is in the 2nd Aorist which has no concern for the timing of the action.

Acts 1`:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

There is only only one conclusion that can be drawn, the church was born in that upper room at Pentecost, in acts 2.


1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Guojing]

I never said the gospel of the kingdom is the same as the gospel of grace!

The Luke 9 Gospel was the gospel of the kingdom (which preaching ended after the leadership of Israel committed the unpardonable sin in MAtt. 12).

1 Cor. 15 is the gospel of grace or the gospel of salvation.

So when you said

It is the same gospel as Pauls, just presented in a differing manner crafted to an audience that knew of the facts of good friday.

Its confusing. The only similarity between the 2 is that it is focused on Jesus. But they 2 messages are not the same in focus.

Even after Matt 12, there is enough scripture evidence to show that the 12 did not understand the Death burial resurrection of Christ.

 

[nolidad]

So when you said



Its confusing. The only similarity between the 2 is that it is focused on Jesus. But they 2 messages are not the same in focus.

Even after Matt 12, there is enough scripture evidence to show that the 12 did not understand the Death burial resurrection of Christ.

After Matt. 12 the gospel of the kingdom was no longer preached to Israel. The offer of the kingdom had been revoked to that generation. I am referring to Acts 2 and afterwards. The 12 and Paul both taight the same need for faith in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus to be saved. But they ised different ways of presenting that message. to teh Jew it was focused in showing that Jesus was indeed the long awaited Messiah and to the gentile Paul did not rely on the OT because the gentiles ahd little to no knowledge of ti!

I agree the gospel preached up to Matt. 12 was totally different than the one preaqced after Acts 2 for they were different gospels.

 

[Guojing]

After Matt. 12 the gospel of the kingdom was no longer preached to Israel. The offer of the kingdom had been revoked to that generation. I am referring to Acts 2 and afterwards. The 12 and Paul both taight the same need for faith in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus to be saved. But they ised different ways of presenting that message. to teh Jew it was focused in showing that Jesus was indeed the long awaited Messiah and to the gentile Paul did not rely on the OT because the gentiles ahd little to no knowledge of ti!

I agree the gospel preached up to Matt. 12 was totally different than the one preaqced after Acts 2 for they were different gospels.

I can see how Acts 2 D will differ from MAD. If you read Acts, Peter quoted Acts 2 in his first sermon at Pentecost

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

He believed that had the Jewish nation accepted the GOK there and then, the tribulation would have begun.

Later on in Acts 3, he offered the physical return of Jesus if the Jews accepted the Gospel of the Kingdom

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

This is the unique aspect of Peter's message, which is not shared when others like Paul preach the gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews. Only in Peter's preaching do you get this offer.

So I don't see how you can somehow conclude that the GOK was no longer offered to the Jews after Matt 12, because in Acts 3, we read that the offer was still given by Peter. But, as in many other debates in the Internet, you won't change your mind about this, so let's just agree to disagree.

 

[nolidad]

I can see how Acts 2 D will differ from MAD. If you read Acts, Peter quoted Acts 2 in his first sermon at Pentecost

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

He believed that had the Jewish nation accepted the GOK there and then, the tribulation would have begun.

Later on in Acts 3, he offered the physical return of Jesus if the Jews accepted the Gospel of the Kingdom

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

This is the unique aspect of Peter's message, which is not shared when others like Paul preach the gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews. Only in Peter's preaching do you get this offer.

So I don't see how you can somehow conclude that the GOK was no longer offered to the Jews after Matt 12, because in Acts 3, we read that the offer was still given by Peter. But, as in many other debates in the Internet, you won't change your mind about this, so let's just agree to disagree.

YOu err because you did not go far enough in quoting Acts!

"
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

He was not giving a new offer of the kingdom being established to that generation! They had committed the unpardonable sin, Judgment had been set and Jesus warend the apostles of when that Judgment would take place!

Luke 21:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The body of Christ is made up of Jew and Gentile, but the promise to Jews that are to be fulfilled in teh Millennium still are in effect. And Peter preached the same message fo salvation as Paul did.

 

[Guojing]

YOu err because you did not go far enough in quoting Acts!

"
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

He was not giving a new offer of the kingdom being established to that generation! They had committed the unpardonable sin, Judgment had been set and Jesus warend the apostles of when that Judgment would take place!

Luke 21:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The body of Christ is made up of Jew and Gentile, but the promise to Jews that are to be fulfilled in teh Millennium still are in effect. And Peter preached the same message fo salvation as Paul did.

So I see that Acts 2 Dis regard the unpardonable sin was committed in Matt 12. Interesting, for those of MAD, they believe that sin was committed was when Stephen's preaching was rejected and he was stoned while he was full of the Holy Spirit.

Okay, like I said, none of us will change our minds here so let's just try to understand each other's position. Cheers.

 

[nolidad]

So I see that Acts 2 Dis regard the unpardonable sin was committed in Matt 12. Interesting, for those of MAD, they believe that sin was committed was when Stephen's preaching was rejected and he was stoned while he was full of the Holy Spirit.

Okay, like I said, none of us will change our minds here so let's just try to understand each other's position. Cheers.

Well I do not know what the acronym MAD means so I can't comment on that.

Jesus clearly and explicitly revoked the offer of teh kingdom in Matt. 12. No Apostle could reoffer the establishment of the Millennial kingdom.

Matthew 21:42-44 King James Version (KJV)
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

And no Acts 2 does not disregard the sin of Matt. 12. Pewter was not preaching the gospel of the kingdom but the gospel of grace/salvation.

As you see Jesus already announced the Kingdom was taken from that generation, so how could it be reoffered before Stephen was stoned?

Jesus already prophesied the destruction of Jeruslaem as a result of the unpardonable sin1 If the kingdom was reoffereed that would make Jesus a potential false prophet!

 

[Guojing]

Well I do not know what the acronym MAD means so I can't comment on that.

Jesus clearly and explicitly revoked the offer of teh kingdom in Matt. 12. No Apostle could reoffer the establishment of the Millennial kingdom.

Matthew 21:42-44 King James Version (KJV)
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

And no Acts 2 does not disregard the sin of Matt. 12. Pewter was not preaching the gospel of the kingdom but the gospel of grace/salvation.

As you see Jesus already announced the Kingdom was taken from that generation, so how could it be reoffered before Stephen was stoned?

Jesus already prophesied the destruction of Jeruslaem as a result of the unpardonable sin1 If the kingdom was reoffereed that would make Jesus a potential false prophet!

Mid Acts dispensationalists, we believe that the grace dispensation only started after Stephen was stoned, and Jesus decided to save Saul specifically to preach that gospel of grace to the Gentiles.

 

[Guojing]

As you see Jesus already announced the Kingdom was taken from that generation, so how could it be reoffered before Stephen was stoned?

Jesus already prophesied the destruction of Jeruslaem as a result of the unpardonable sin1 If the kingdom was reoffereed that would make Jesus a potential false prophet!

MAD generally believed that, when Jesus was on the cross, he said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", a third chance was offered to the Jews regarding the GOK.

They have already rejected God the Father in the OT. They have now rejected God the Son in the 4 Gospels.

By the time they stoned Stephen, who was full of the Holy Spirit, they have rejected God the Holy Spirit. Do you recall Stephen saying to the Sanhedrin, he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father? If the Jewish Sanhedrin had accepted Stephen preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom, and accepted Jesus as their promised Messiah instead of stoning Stephen, Jesus would have returned to earth again.

But the unpardonable sin was committed then, the entire Trinity has now been rejected by the Jews. Hence the GOK was finally put on hold, until after the Church is raptured, then it will be restarted.

 

[nolidad]

Mid Acts dispensationalists, we believe that the grace dispensation only started after Stephen was stoned, and Jesus decided to save Saul specifically to preach that gospel of grace to the Gentiles.

Well you can believe whatever! But the church was born at acts 2 with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. the age of grace is also called the church age and you can only enter the church by the baptism of teh Spirit- Stephen was already a member of the body of Christ.

As it says in SCripture- Jesus already revoked the kingdom to that generation and pronounced physical judgment on that generation. There could be no second offer of the kingdom!

They have already rejected God the Father in the OT. They have now rejected God the Son in the 4 Gospels.

By the time they stoned Stephen, who was full of the Holy Spirit, they have rejected God the Holy Spirit. Do you recall Stephen saying to the Sanhedrin, he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father? If the Jewish Sanhedrin had accepted Stephen preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom, and accepted Jesus as their promised Messiah instead of stoning Stephen, Jesus would have returned to earth again.

But the unpardonable sin was committed then, the entire Trinity has now been rejected by the Jews. Hence the GOK was finally put on hold, until after the Church is raptured, then it will be restarted.

Werll at Matthew 12 they had already blasphemed and rejected the Holy Spirit as beelzebub! And on the cross- Jesus was asking fro forgiveness for the people, not the nation. He already pronounced judgment- He had not changed His mind!

 

[Guojing]

Well you can believe whatever! But the church was born at acts 2 with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. the age of grace is also called the church age and you can only enter the church by the baptism of teh Spirit- Stephen was already a member of the body of Christ.

As it says in SCripture- Jesus already revoked the kingdom to that generation and pronounced physical judgment on that generation. There could be no second offer of the kingdom!



Werll at Matthew 12 they had already blasphemed and rejected the Holy Spirit as beelzebub! And on the cross- Jesus was asking fro forgiveness for the people, not the nation. He already pronounced judgment- He had not changed His mind!

Fascinating, I suppose you learn this from other Acts 2 dispensationalists right? Do most of them believe this too?

 

[Dan Perez]

MAD generally believed that, when Jesus was on the cross, he said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", a third chance was offered to the Jews regarding the GOK.

They have already rejected God the Father in the OT. They have now rejected God the Son in the 4 Gospels.

By the time they stoned Stephen, who was full of the Holy Spirit, they have rejected God the Holy Spirit. Do you recall Stephen saying to the Sanhedrin, he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father? If the Jewish Sanhedrin had accepted Stephen preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom, and accepted Jesus as their promised Messiah instead of stoning Stephen, Jesus would have returned to earth again.

But the unpardonable sin was committed then, the entire Trinity has now been rejected by the Jews. Hence the GOK was finally put on hold, until after the Church is raptured, then it will be restarted.

Hi and the UNPARDONABLE SIN can only be committed on Jesus earthly ministry as recorded in Matt 12:31 and can NEVER be committed again by Israel !!

dan p