WHERE DID THE BODY OF CHRIST BEGIN ?

[Guojing]

Well I do not limit the Body to Jews. We are talking about When the body was born. and as Paul said one enters the body of Christ by the baptism of the Spirit (not water baptism) Then all those in the upper room were the original members of the body and then more and more and more were added as they received the gospel. Then when Peter went to Cornelius and cornelius got saved ( the forst recorded Gentile) then the Body of Christ was open for the gentile world to enter in. shortly thereafter Paul was raised and legions of gentiles came into the body of Christ by receiving the gospel and being basptized by the Spirit into the Body!

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Okay, so if you define the body as both Jews and Gentiles, then you cannot say it begun in Acts 2, since there were no Gentiles present. Cornelius was saved only in mid Acts.

 

[nolidad]

Okay, so if you define the body as both Jews and Gentiles, then you cannot say it begun in Acts 2, since there were no Gentiles present. Cornelius was saved only in mid Acts.

Now you are being nit picky!

Just because the church was born in the upper room and only Jews were present at first does not negate the fact that the church was and is to be comprised of Jews and Gentiles in one body. It seems like you wish not to give god any time to work on the planet

The church was to include Americans also- does that mean the body of Christ was not in effect until the first Christians were in America??? That is silly.

Jesus said to take the gospel to all peoples. Is the church in disobedience because we have yet to reach all people groups? Of course not!

 

[Guojing]

Now you are being nit picky!

Just because the church was born in the upper room and only Jews were present at first does not negate the fact that the church was and is to be comprised of Jews and Gentiles in one body. It seems like you wish not to give god any time to work on the planet

The church was to include Americans also- does that mean the body of Christ was not in effect until the first Christians were in America??? That is silly.

Jesus said to take the gospel to all peoples. Is the church in disobedience because we have yet to reach all people groups? Of course not!

The OT prophecy timetable was that the Jewish nation must accept Jesus as their Messiah first, before the Gentiles can be reached. That is why Peter and the other 11 were not going to the Gentiles and stay in Jerusalem throughout.

The visit to Cornelius was a one off visit and the HS had to prompt Peter a few times and even when he was there, he didn't know what he was doing there.

The concept of the "body of Christ", comprise of Jews and Gentiles in equality was a secret only revealed to Paul, as he explained in Ephesians 2 and 3.

 

[nolidad]

The OT prophecy timetable was that the Jewish nation must accept Jesus as their Messiah first, before the Gentiles can be reached. That is why Peter and the other 11 were not going to the Gentiles and stay in Jerusalem throughout.

The visit to Cornelius was a one off visit and the HS had to prompt Peter a few times and even when he was there, he didn't know what he was doing there.

The concept of the "body of Christ", comprise of Jews and Gentiles in equality was a secret only revealed to Paul, as he explained in Ephesians 2 and 3.

Sorry that is not true!

Cornelius was not a one off! It was the opening of the gospel to gentiles!

Acts 10:
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 1: 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The prophesies were two fold. One that spoke to Jesus first coming when the nation would reject Him, and the second when the nation (prior to His physical return) would receive Him. The Church was a mystery in the ot.

 

[Guojing]

Sorry that is not true!

Cornelius was not a one off! It was the opening of the gospel to gentiles!

Acts 10:
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 1: 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The prophesies were two fold. One that spoke to Jesus first coming when the nation would reject Him, and the second when the nation (prior to His physical return) would receive Him. The Church was a mystery in the ot.

In the GC, Jesus commanded this 11 disciples to preach the same gospel he preached in the gospel of Matthew , which he specifically excluded the Gentiles from. In Matthew, we get commandments by the Lord Jesus to his 12 disciples like in Matt 10:5

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not"

And in Acts, after Jesus gave the so called "Great Commission", Peter understood that aspect completely, that was why he remarked to Cornelius the following in Acts 10

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Question: From this statement by Peter, did he really believed that the GC was for the whole world? What did Jesus commanded to them, in Matthew, regarding preaching to the Gentiles?

Peter had never thought in his life of going to the Gentiles, which only demonstrates that the Great Commission given to them (the Twelve) does not include the Gentile people. For if Jesus intended that they should make disciples among the Gentiles, Peter would have known it and would have not said to Cornelius and family, “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile.”

The special revelation that Peter saw made him to say, “So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection.” Had not God given him this vision he would have objected going to a Gentile family, which again demonstrates that the Great Commission, as clear as it was to the disciples, did not include the command to go to the Gentiles.

Had Jesus intended that they should go to the Gentiles, Peter would not need to say in Acts 10:34,35, “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.” He does not need to say that if in the first place they were commanded to go to the Gentiles. But as it is, and as Peter and company understood it, the Great Commission was not including the Gentiles.

As for that one off meeting between Peter and Cornelius, I believe the real objective of the Holy Spirit in arranging that is so that Peter could defend Paul in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 and mentioned again in Galatians 2, to protect Paul's gospel to the Gentiles.

 

[nolidad]

In the GC, Jesus commanded this 11 disciples to preach the same gospel he preached in the gospel of Matthew , which he specifically excluded the Gentiles from. In Matthew, we get commandments by the Lord Jesus to his 12 disciples like in Matt 10:5

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not"

And in Acts, after Jesus gave the so called "Great Commission", Peter understood that aspect completely, that was why he remarked to Cornelius the following in Acts 10

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Question: From this statement by Peter, did he really believed that the GC was for the whole world? What did Jesus commanded to them, in Matthew, regarding preaching to the Gentiles?

Peter had never thought in his life of going to the Gentiles, which only demonstrates that the Great Commission given to them (the Twelve) does not include the Gentile people. For if Jesus intended that they should make disciples among the Gentiles, Peter would have known it and would have not said to Cornelius and family, “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile.”

The special revelation that Peter saw made him to say, “So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection.” Had not God given him this vision he would have objected going to a Gentile family, which again demonstrates that the Great Commission, as clear as it was to the disciples, did not include the command to go to the Gentiles.

Had Jesus intended that they should go to the Gentiles, Peter would not need to say in Acts 10:34,35, “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.” He does not need to say that if in the first place they were commanded to go to the Gentiles. But as it is, and as Peter and company understood it, the Great Commission was not including the Gentiles.

As for that one off meeting between Peter and Cornelius, I believe the real objective of the Holy Spirit in arranging that is so that Peter could defend Paul in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 and mentioned again in Galatians 2, to protect Paul's gospel to the Gentiles.

Sorry but you are mixing 2 separate gospels.

When Jesus walked the face of the earth, Starting with John the Baptist, it was the gospel of the kingdom! It was only for Isrtael, for Jesus had come to earth (to die for sin of course) but to announce that the long awaited, promised and prophesied kingdom promised to Israel had arrived in His person!

Neither Jesus nor the Apostles when they were sent by Jesus to the people of Israel did not preach on the death burial and resurrection of Jesus as the only payment for sin acceptable to the Father! They preached "Repent. for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

When Jesus was preparing to leave- He told the Apostles this:

Acts 1: "4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Now we can speculate as to why they had not even gone through Judea at the point of Acts 10, but Peter knew the gospel of salvation was to go everywhere in the world!

You wrote: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile.”

Yes Peter was still a Jew but this was not part of Mosaic Law but Pharasaic law. He was obeying vain traditions! When he said this!

Peters eyes were opened when Cornelius got saved! to finally see the truth. Remember that Paul had to rebuke him in Galatia because he sinned badly and withdrew his fellowship from the gentiles in Galatia!

Now the Crux of the gospel message is the same to both Jew and Gentile, that the death,burial and physical resurrection of Jesus paid for all our sins! HOWEVER, we present the gospel vastly different to Jews than we do to Gentiles. To the Jew we should endeavor to show that Jesus is the promised Messiah of teh OT and that He has to come to earth twice! Once as suffering Savior and the Second time as conquering King!

 

[topher694]

Still Acts 2. This isn't a hard one.

 

[Guojing]

Peters eyes were opened when Cornelius got saved! to finally see the truth. Remember that Paul had to rebuke him in Galatia because he sinned badly and withdrew his fellowship from the gentiles in Galatia!

If you don't agree that this visit from Peter to the Gentile was a one-off event, lets use scripture to decide, look at Acts 11, after Peter had to explain his visit to the Jews

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

It does not look as if Peter's eyes were open does it? Like I said earlier, Peter and the early Jewish believers were not being disobedient. All of them understood the divine timetable in the OT, the Jews as a nation have to accept their Messiah first, before the Gentiles can be reached.

Let me just give you three examples from the OT about this timetable

Zechariah 8 explains
3 “Thus says the Lord: ‘I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the Lord of hosts, The Holy Mountain.’
Later on, in the chapter in Zechariah 8:20-23 New Living Translation (NLT)
20 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: People from nations and cities around the world will travel to Jerusalem. 21 The people of one city will say to the people of another, ‘Come with us to Jerusalem to ask the Lord to bless us. Let’s worship the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. I’m determined to go.’ 22 Many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord of Heaven’s Armies and to ask for his blessing. 23 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: In those days ten men from different nations and languages of the world will clutch at the sleeve of one Jew. And they will say, ‘Please let us walk with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’”

A similar prophecy was given in Micah Chapter 4 (NLT)
In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.
2 People from many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of Jacob’s God. There he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the Lord’s teaching will go out from Zion; his word will go out from Jerusalem.

Finally, the same prophecy was given in the book of Isaiah chapter 2:2
In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.

So, based on these 3 accounts, the timeline was supposed to be Jews are to be saved first, once they accept Jesus has the Messiah, then the Kingdom will be established in Jerusalem and the Jews will then be priests spreading that blessings to all the Gentiles.

 

[nolidad]

If you don't agree that this visit from Peter to the Gentile was a one-off event, lets use scripture to decide, look at Acts 11, after Peter had to explain his visit to the Jews

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

It does not look as if Peter's eyes were open does it? Like I said earlier, Peter and the early Jewish believers were not being disobedient. All of them understood the divine timetable in the OT, the Jews as a nation have to accept their Messiah first, before the Gentiles can be reached.

Let me just give you three examples from the OT about this timetable

Zechariah 8 explains
3 “Thus says the Lord: ‘I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the Lord of hosts, The Holy Mountain.’
Later on, in the chapter in Zechariah 8:20-23 New Living Translation (NLT)
20 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: People from nations and cities around the world will travel to Jerusalem. 21 The people of one city will say to the people of another, ‘Come with us to Jerusalem to ask the Lord to bless us. Let’s worship the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. I’m determined to go.’ 22 Many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord of Heaven’s Armies and to ask for his blessing. 23 “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: In those days ten men from different nations and languages of the world will clutch at the sleeve of one Jew. And they will say, ‘Please let us walk with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’”


A similar prophecy was given in Micah Chapter 4 (NLT)
In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.
2 People from many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of Jacob’s God. There he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For the Lord’s teaching will go out from Zion; his word will go out from Jerusalem.

Finally, the same prophecy was given in the book of Isaiah chapter 2:2
In the last days, the mountain of the Lord’s house will be the highest of all—the most important place on earth. It will be raised above the other hills, and people from all over the world will stream there to worship.

So, based on these 3 accounts, the timeline was supposed to be Jews are to be saved first, once they accept Jesus has the Messiah, then the Kingdom will be established in Jerusalem and the Jews will then be priests spreading that blessings to all the Gentiles.

Well Guojing- I guess that no Gentiles are in the body of Christ yet according to your thinking!

You said: "It does not look as if Peter's eyes were open does it? Like I said earlier, Peter and the early Jewish believers were not being disobedient. All of them understood the divine timetable in the OT, the Jews as a nation have to accept their Messiah first, before the Gentiles can be reached."

Israel as a nation has not yet accepted Jesus as Messiah (they will at the end of the 70th week of Daniel or the great trib). So the Gentiles are unreached if you are to be believed!

The OT prophesies you quote- are not for now , but for the Millenial Kingdom, when Israel is reigning on the earth and the church is reigning with Jesus over the earth!

Yes the Jews scattered due to the persecution of the Jews preached to Jews only! That point of History is not doctrine but a historical statement. Jesus told them in Acts 1 to preach globally!

So in your estimation Pauls ministry and apostleship to the gentiles is a sin? Israel as a nation rejected Jesus as Messiah and yet because of Paul the church is mostly all gentiles today?

If one understand that Peter as the holder of the keys- Had to be the first to present the gospel to gentiles before the gospel could go to the gentiles- then we see Cornelius as the event that opened the door to the gospel going forth to the gentiles. Then so soon after this- God raised Paul up!

 

[Guojing]

Well Guojing- I guess that no Gentiles are in the body of Christ yet according to your thinking!

You said: "It does not look as if Peter's eyes were open does it? Like I said earlier, Peter and the early Jewish believers were not being disobedient. All of them understood the divine timetable in the OT, the Jews as a nation have to accept their Messiah first, before the Gentiles can be reached."

Israel as a nation has not yet accepted Jesus as Messiah (they will at the end of the 70th week of Daniel or the great trib). So the Gentiles are unreached if you are to be believed!

The OT prophesies you quote- are not for now , but for the Millenial Kingdom, when Israel is reigning on the earth and the church is reigning with Jesus over the earth!

Yes the Jews scattered due to the persecution of the Jews preached to Jews only! That point of History is not doctrine but a historical statement. Jesus told them in Acts 1 to preach globally!

So in your estimation Pauls ministry and apostleship to the gentiles is a sin? Israel as a nation rejected Jesus as Messiah and yet because of Paul the church is mostly all gentiles today?

If one understand that Peter as the holder of the keys- Had to be the first to present the gospel to gentiles before the gospel could go to the gentiles- then we see Cornelius as the event that opened the door to the gospel going forth to the gentiles. Then so soon after this- God raised Paul up!

Hmm I thought this is a dispensationalist forum? I see that you don't understand that because the Jews as nation rejected Christ after stoning Stephen, the door is now open for Gentiles? You are not a dispensationalist?

 

[nolidad]

Hmm I thought this is a dispensationalist forum? I see that you don't understand that because the Jews as nation rejected Christ after stoning Stephen, the door is now open for Gentiles? You are not a dispensationalist?

I am a staunch dispensationalist.

But the Jews rejected the Messiahship of Jesus as recorded in Matthew 12: 22-45 When the leaders upon being told by the people that Jesus was the Messiah (though in a question form- it actually was a statement seeking confirmation)

After Israel committed the blasphemy of the Spirit here- the offer of teh kingdom was revoked to that generation and promised to another. The kingdom offer was now done. The very next chapter Jesus began public teaching in parables. It was so different even the disciples asked why? Jesus told them that the people would no longer hear plainly but only the disciples would learn the mystery of the kingdom (Which Paul also declared in Ephesians)

Jesus in the Olivet discourse warned of the impending Judgment on Israel for their rejection of His Messiahship as told in Luke 21: 12-24! this was the judgement for Israel already rejecting Him- that their temple and land would be taken and the diaspora would begin!

Today we are witnesses of prophesy being fulfilled with Israel returning to the land in unbelief to be prepared to receive Jesus as Messiah!

By the time of Stephen there was already the rejection which took place while Jesus was alive!

The nation turned to the leader ship and said in Matthew 12---- Jesus is the Messiah isn't he? (they asked that because only Jesus performed the three miracles the pharisees for generations taught only Messiah could do) so the people were expecting the leaders to crown Him king!

Instead the Pharisees rejected Jesus miracles on the basis He did them by Beelzebub!

 

[Guojing]

I am a staunch dispensationalist.

But the Jews rejected the Messiahship of Jesus as recorded in Matthew 12: 22-45 When the leaders upon being told by the people that Jesus was the Messiah (though in a question form- it actually was a statement seeking confirmation)

After Israel committed the blasphemy of the Spirit here- the offer of teh kingdom was revoked to that generation and promised to another. The kingdom offer was now done. The very next chapter Jesus began public teaching in parables. It was so different even the disciples asked why? Jesus told them that the people would no longer hear plainly but only the disciples would learn the mystery of the kingdom (Which Paul also declared in Ephesians)

Jesus in the Olivet discourse warned of the impending Judgment on Israel for their rejection of His Messiahship as told in Luke 21: 12-24! this was the judgement for Israel already rejecting Him- that their temple and land would be taken and the diaspora would begin!

Today we are witnesses of prophesy being fulfilled with Israel returning to the land in unbelief to be prepared to receive Jesus as Messiah!

By the time of Stephen there was already the rejection which took place while Jesus was alive!

The nation turned to the leader ship and said in Matthew 12---- Jesus is the Messiah isn't he? (they asked that because only Jesus performed the three miracles the pharisees for generations taught only Messiah could do) so the people were expecting the leaders to crown Him king!

Instead the Pharisees rejected Jesus miracles on the basis He did them by Beelzebub!

So you should do agree that that the original timetable was that the Jews as a nation must accept Jesus first, before the Gentile can be reached?

If you do, then isn't it clear the church cannot have begun in Acts 2, because no Gentile was reached then, and cannot be reached, so long as the Jewish nation still have an opportunity to accept Jesus.

The Jews as a nation did not reject Christ until Stephen was stoned. Only then that the Gentiles could be reached independent of the Jews.

 

[nolidad]

So you should do agree that that the original timetable was that the Jews as a nation must accept Jesus first, before the Gentile can be reached?

If you do, then isn't it clear the church cannot have begun in Acts 2, because no Gentile was reached then, and cannot be reached, so long as the Jewish nation still have an opportunity to accept Jesus.

The Jews as a nation did not reject Christ until Stephen was stoned. Only then that the Gentiles could be reached independent of the Jews.

No because there is nothing in Scripture that demands that the nation of Israel accept Jesus as Messiah before the gospel could go to the gentiles. In fact the opposite is true.

It was prophesied in the Ot that Israel would reject their Messiah and that the nations (gentiles) would receive Him!

The Jews as a nation rejected Jesus as Messiah in the events surrounding Matthew 12. The pharisees told Pilate they had no king but Cesar!

Entrance into the Body of Christ as Paul explicitly declared is by the baptism or infilling of the Holy Spirit. This began in Acts 2!

The Body of Christ is composed of Jew and Gentile, but it had to have a start somewhere at sometime with some people. and that time,place and people were recorded in Acts 2.

 

[Guojing]

The OT prophesies you quote- are not for now , but for the Millenial Kingdom, when Israel is reigning on the earth and the church is reigning with Jesus over the earth!

I see, now I understand better what Acts 2 or classical dispensationalists differ from those who are mid Acts.

So by saying the above, you are actually saying that the OT prophets such as Isaiah, Zechariah and Micah, actually knew about the church, comprising of Jews and Gentiles in equality, reigning with Jesus in the 1000 years?

This is despite what Paul said in Ephesians 3

3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Interesting belief classical dispensationalists have, I must say. I originally thought that one rule all dispensationalists follow when it comes to bible interpretation is a simple "Don't anticipate revelation".

If scripture says that Paul was the first to know about the revelation of the body of Christ comprising of Jews and Gentiles, this must mean that the OT prophets must not have been aware. But we can agree to disagree.

 

[nolidad]

I see, now I understand better what Acts 2 or classical dispensationalists differ from those who are mid Acts.

So by saying the above, you are actually saying that the OT prophets such as Isaiah, Zechariah and Micah, actually knew about the church, comprising of Jews and Gentiles in equality, reigning with Jesus in the 1000 years?

This is despite what Paul said in Ephesians 3

3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Interesting belief classical dispensationalists have, I must say. I originally thought that one rule all dispensationalists follow when it comes to bible interpretation is a simple "Don't anticipate revelation".

If scripture says that Paul was the first to know about the revelation of the body of Christ comprising of Jews and Gentiles, this must mean that the OT prophets must not have been aware. But we can agree to disagree.

Well you are wrong. Dispensationalists do not believe that the prophets knew of the mystery of the church! There may be a few out there, but they are not what you dubbed "classical dispensationalists"

If you read the verses you posted, you would realize Paul never claimed to be the first to know the mystery!


"3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

Paul had no knowledge of the great commission when He got saved! He went from Christian killer to Christian! He was taught what the apostles already knew when He was in the desert by revelation and not by walking with Jesus or the apostles. He never claimed supremacy of knowing the mystery, he just declared what teh apostles knew by face to face teaching he was given by revelation.

 

[Guojing]

Well you are wrong. Dispensationalists do not believe that the prophets knew of the mystery of the church! There may be a few out there, but they are not what you dubbed "classical dispensationalists"

If you read the verses you posted, you would realize Paul never claimed to be the first to know the mystery!


"3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

Paul had no knowledge of the great commission when He got saved! He went from Christian killer to Christian! He was taught what the apostles already knew when He was in the desert by revelation and not by walking with Jesus or the apostles. He never claimed supremacy of knowing the mystery, he just declared what teh apostles knew by face to face teaching he was given by revelation.

So you interpret the term "holy apostles and prophets" as people like Micah, Zechariah and Isaiah? Okay then, I see that your mind is made up, so let's agree to disagree here then.

And even though you are a dispensationalist, you actually think the gospel received by Paul thru direct revelation from the ascended Christ, is the same gospel that people like Peter and the other apostles also preach?

That is fascinating news indeed. I suppose you did not learn the basics of dispensationalism from people like CR Stam and Les Feldick? May I ask who you learn dispensation from?

 

[nolidad]

So you interpret the term "holy apostles and prophets" as people like Micah, Zechariah and Isaiah? Okay then, I see that your mind is made up, so let's agree to disagree here then.

And even though you are a dispensationalist, you actually think the gospel received by Paul thru direct revelation from the ascended Christ, is the same gospel that people like Peter and the other apostles also preach?

That is fascinating news indeed. I suppose you did not learn the basics of dispensationalism from people like CR Stam and Les Feldick? May I ask who you learn dispensation from?

No I do not call Micah and the others apostles. I call then prophets! I call Peter, James and the others apostles as the Bible does! Also the NT had prophets as well! In the NT the prophets were not so much FOREtellers as FORTHtellers.
Their ministry was more teaching than predictive Scripture! Though Peter, Paul and John were given prophesy for the future.

As for the gospel? the message of salvation is the exact same as what Jesus taught Peter and the other apostles. One must trust in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus as the only satisfactory payment for sin acceptable to the Father.

As for metrhodology of preaching it- Paul used very different means to the gentiles as the other apostles did to teh Jews. tot eh Jew they used OT prophesy and SCripture to show Jersus is the Messiah. To the Gentile not hardly.

also manner of life for Jew and gentile was different. But the salvation message is the same!

I do not know of these Stam and Feldick folk. I was taught systematic dispensational theology in College with L.S. Chafer, Walvoord, Fruchtenbaum and JD Pentecost.

 

[Guojing]

No I do not call Micah and the others apostles. I call then prophets! I call Peter, James and the others apostles as the Bible does! Also the NT had prophets as well! In the NT the prophets were not so much FOREtellers as FORTHtellers.
Their ministry was more teaching than predictive Scripture! Though Peter, Paul and John were given prophesy for the future.

As for the gospel? the message of salvation is the exact same as what Jesus taught Peter and the other apostles. One must trust in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus as the only satisfactory payment for sin acceptable to the Father.

As for metrhodology of preaching it- Paul used very different means to the gentiles as the other apostles did to teh Jews. tot eh Jew they used OT prophesy and SCripture to show Jersus is the Messiah. To the Gentile not hardly.

also manner of life for Jew and gentile was different. But the salvation message is the same!

I do not know of these Stam and Feldick folk. I was taught systematic dispensational theology in College with L.S. Chafer, Walvoord, Fruchtenbaum and JD Pentecost.

When I mentioned Micah et al under the "holy apostles and prophets", its about the prophets, not the apostles. So are you saying that Micah, Zech and Isaiah are the part of those prophets that Paul said are aware of the body of Christ comprising of Jews and Gentiles in equality?

This is the first time I have seen of people who call themselves dispensationalists but do not distinguish between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace, as well as between the prophecy and the mystery. Thanks for the references, I will check out those teachers to find out more exactly what they are teaching.

 

[nolidad]

When I mentioned Micah et al under the "holy apostles and prophets", its about the prophets, not the apostles. So are you saying that Micah, Zech and Isaiah are the part of those prophets that Paul said are aware of the body of Christ comprising of Jews and Gentiles in equality?

This is the first time I have seen of people who call themselves dispensationalists but do not distinguish between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace, as well as between the prophecy and the mystery. Thanks for the references, I will check out those teachers to find out more exactly what they are teaching.

Thje gospel of teh kingdom was announcing the kingdom promised to Israel was at hand. It was a call to repentance and accept their king-Jesus. If Israel had received Jesus as Messiah, He still would have been crucified as a King in opposition to Cesar, but upon HIs resurrection would have established Israels promised Kingdom!

Grace gospel is simply trust in teh death burial and resurrection of Jesus as the full payment for your sin and you will be given eternal life and become part of the Body of Christ.

As for OT prophets- some of t hem preached the mystery and alluded to it.

 

[Guojing]

Thje gospel of teh kingdom was announcing the kingdom promised to Israel was at hand. It was a call to repentance and accept their king-Jesus. If Israel had received Jesus as Messiah, He still would have been crucified as a King in opposition to Cesar, but upon HIs resurrection would have established Israels promised Kingdom!

Grace gospel is simply trust in teh death burial and resurrection of Jesus as the full payment for your sin and you will be given eternal life and become part of the Body of Christ.

And you are saying that the original 12 apostles, when they preach the gospel in Matt-John, understood the same death burial and resurrection of Christ and preach that exact same gospel then?