Where Are We: Before the Millennium, After, or Somewhere In Between?

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Impossible to address all your questions in depth. If you haven't, study the book of Daniel when studying Revelation. Hours and hours of study. Will touch on a couple things you asked about.

I have studied Daniel, it is necessary to feel confident that I am not sure about much of the major interpretations of prophecy. It is often on my mind, though generally, in regards to how amazing the prophecies which have been fulfilled were fulfilled. The weeks to the desecration of the Temple, the weeks to Jesus and his ministry. The amazing way God showed He knew how the coming kingdoms would rise and fall. The depiction of praying and the angels. And so on.

However, as with Revelation, there is much I put in the "I do not know" area, while gathering possibilities, and attempting to apply them. This is much more difficult, I have found, then going "case closed". Though, for me, I do not feel comfortable, at all, saying to myself, "case closed", when there remains possibilities that there are serious holes in what I believe.

We are told the Gospels, and live by that. This stuff, we do not have guarantee we will have the right answers on.

Daniel is a good yardstick here. We definitely see there prophecy which has been fulfilled, such as with the kingdoms to Rome. But, this is in far retrospect.

The first resurrection:

1st Thessalonians 4

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

At His 2nd coming

All are in the grave (saved & unsaved). 1st Resurrection (saved in the grave, saved living at the time ). The unsaved dead remain in the grave. The unsaved living at the time are destroyed and lay dead upon the earth. The saved dead and saved living at the time are taken to heaven and this begins the 1,000 (referred to as the Millennium) year reign with Him in heaven.

This is what is meant by satan being bound or chained, he has nobody to tempt. All "earthlings" are dead.

During the millennium, the thousand-year period of which the twentieth chapter of Revelation speaks, Satan's influence over the earth will be restricted (all are dead), and Christ will reign with His saints

Thanks for 'going the extra mile' here, and with your research.

This does seem like a strong reading: the 144,000 make it, everyone else is 'killed with the sword coming out of the Rider's mouth', and 'the birds gorge themselves on their flesh'. Then, "all those who were beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.)"

Clarification wanted:

You state, "All are in the grave (saved & unsaved). 1st Resurrection (saved in the grave, saved living at the time ). The unsaved dead remain in the grave."

All are in the grave? So, you believe no earthling makes it? What about the 144,000? Satan brings the nations against the saved. Are they all killed by them?

Is that a literal death?

Do you assert the "beheading" is literally getting one's physical head chopped off?

The verse about "all those who did not worship the beast or his image", does not state that this is only those living during the third woe. This is true. So, it could mean all the saints in the past two thousand years. Is that your stance?

Or, the setting up of the beast and the image certainly seems to happen after the first woe, when they are released from the pit. And after the second woe, the two witnesses. Are you stating that maybe this was set up long ago. It was said 'this is how we know it is the last hour, because many anti-christs have come'.

Next, you state, "The saved dead and saved living at the time are taken to heaven and this begins the 1,000 (referred to as the Millennium) year reign with Him in heaven."

And, "This is what is meant by satan being bound or chained, he has nobody to tempt. All "earthlings" are dead."

So, this earth becomes a barren planet? They are not said to literally "be taken to heaven". How do you figure this in there? That is, do you mean they will not rule, on earth for a thousand years?

You do state, however, "all earthlings are dead". "Earthling" is not a term people generally use, and I focus in on that, as I do use a similar term, quite often.

If you see the dead and those who remain alive as living 'not on planet earth', but state 'all earthlings are dead', who is left on planet earth? Just Satan? Or the birds, too?

Do you see the birds as angels?

This all does seem very much like 'man will become more rare then the rarest precious metal', is this correct?

The 'gorging of the flesh', you see as literal? Or, no? That is that everyone is literally, physically killed?

For instance, all of this does remind me of Moses and the takedown of Pharaoh. Which, essentially, was the takedown of all of Egypt. Though, only Pharaoh and his army was actually slaughtered, as well as the firstborn of all of Egypt. God rose up Pharaoh and gave him great glory, it is told to Moses. And Moses recorded for us. But, God got no glory from this. God got glory from his destruction.

Is this when 'the nothings of this world shame the strong'?

What about the verse, 'those who fail to live to 100 will be considered mere infants and cursed by God'. Do you not see this happening during this time?

Rev. 20:1-4.

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent , who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended

So ... no .... the millennium has not happened yet. It begins at the return of our Lord and we do not know the day or time He will return.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

"And the errors of some of these systems are very blatant and remained such to this day"

Yep and will remain so, actually will get worse, until He returns.

Difficult to watch prophesy unfold.

I just responded more thoroughly to your post, but forgot to state: I do like your usage of term "earthling", and find your reading of the lock up in the Abyss the second time 'as there being no one left for Satan to tempt on earth' as very unique and interesting.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

It specifically says after 3.5 days they were raised. Maybe 3.5 is pointing to the remaining half of Daniel's 70th week.

They are preaching to the Gentiles, yet they are counted as being martyred where our Lord was crucified. This suggests a continuity of the preaching of the Gospel from the founding Apostolic Jewish Church and her initial preaching to the Jewish house under Christ's ministry when he had sent them out in twos. Why twos?

The NT Temple is spoken of as being an outer court for preaching to the Gentile nations. Yet we see the inner court is accounted for as it is measured. In another place we have New Jerusalem being without a Temple, as the Lord is said to be its Temple.

The redeemed would be measured and counted to be with the Temple Jesus Christ. Does this point to the 144,000 OT Jews under Christ's ministry being the firstfruits to be raised as in the resurrection accouny of Matthew 27:52-53?

So one poster mentioned two resurrections. Could there be one at the start immediately after Christ's resurrection as the firstfruits as Paul gave us the order of the resurrection where Christ is the forerunner, then the firstfruits (144,000 Rev 14) and then those that belong to him towards the gleaning of the harvest.

If the second woe ushered in the NT Church's resurrection then the 1st woe must have immediately followed the resurrection of Jesus after there was an earthquake to usher in the OT 144,000.

Figurative language is pointing to two resurrection woes before the third woe which is the 7th trumpet sounded in declaring time is up, the end.



Most people think that it is two people, but two people doing what and for such a short time?

If the anointed two stand before God and continually minister by pouring out the golden oil of Zechariah 4, then how could two people be accounted with the responsibility of the gospel they are preaching for the past 1988 years?



Because the 2nd woe has yet to pass, whereas the 1st woe back in the 1st century does as documented Matthew 27:52-53.

It follows that the two olive trees must have continuity with preaching the gospel to the Gentile world within the symbolic 3.5 day ministry (42 months / 1260 days of Zechariah 4).



Yes. But two in it self symbolizes the witness of two binding in heaven. These two must be both Jews and Gentiles ministering the Gospel to the Gentile world at large and pouring out the golden oil through the 7 candlestick menorah of God mentioned also in Zechariah 4 as the 7 lamps. The 7 eyes 7 spirits that go out in the world is suggesting continuity. Two people in a short time has no continuity or purpose in the greater scheme of things that follows the 1st woe.

If we look at Rev 14 we note the 144,000 firstfruits are sealed first according to Rev 7 then the gospel goes out to the many Gentile nations abroad. Continuity from the 1st woe to the 2nd and the 3rd as your opening post asked suggests that a gap in ministry cannot be warrented to two individuals who are disjointed from the 1st woe earthquake of Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection of the firstfruits of the harvest.

Three woes to me appear from understanding your post to be as follows

Christ raised as the forerunner to the resurrection.

1st Earthquake Woe

The Firstfruits of Rev7 and Rev14 are raised as those who are present with the Temple of New Jerusalem who is Jesus and are measured because they are redeemed and accounted for, meaning they are sealed through the 1st woe resurrection (Rev 7).

The Church ministry to the Gentile nations (Gentiles come to Full) under NT and within outer unmeasured court without Temple ends and then the Church is martyred and raised 3.5 days after her commission.

The 2nd Earthquake Woe

The door of Grace is closed and the world is judged according to Rev5 request of those once under the altar of God.

The 1335 day marker of the translating of the remnant Elect at Christ's brilliant coming is signalled by the 3rd Woe the 7th Trumpet in declaring time is up, the End as Jesus would say.

I am the one who mentioned multiple resurrections, however, we do not know what became of those who rose from the grave. Unlikely, did they remain on earth for these past two thousand years.

The first woe is very unlikely to have happened when Jesus 'drove out Satan'. Jesus stated Satan was driven out of the Kingdom, not of the world. The world is what Satan is the prince of.

We are given a strict chronological order, even with the woes. However, this may not rule out the possibility that segments happened beforehand.

With the three woes, right before they are described, as with the seals and the trumpets, which all are carefully numbered, and so strong sequential ordering is implied:

"As I watched, I heard an eagle which was flying in midair cry out, 'Woe, Woe, Woe, to the inhabitants of the earth because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels'", in Revelation 8.

Then, we see the three woes.

As came up above, though I just really was forced to think this out on this thread, Satan is of darkness and only darkness. 'There is no truth in him'. So, he could be in the abyss all of these two thousand years, for instance, yet also remaining the prince of this world.

In fact, going to the text, I am reminded, these are the remaining of the seven trumpets to be sounded. Or, closely related. The second woe does not happen until the 'fifth angel sounds their trumpet', at the start of Revelation 9. After the first woe, it is stated 'it has past, two woes are remaining'.

The sixth trumpet sounds their trumpet before the events of Revelation 9 and 10, where Revelation 10 is the two witnesses and their ministry. After they are resurrected, and risen to Heaven, it is stated 'the second woe has passed, the third has yet to come'.

I do not have sure evidence of these woes, when they happened, or how. Or, if they are yet to be. We are also not given sure timelines. There are segments of time mentioned through the woes, but we do not know if those timelines are symbolic, nor how symbolic they may be.

I say "we", because I have not come across any reading on earth which I feel fits and is no longer debatable or unable to be questioned. We have seen the earth decimated multiple times in the centuries past, so that is another factor on timelines that I bear consideration of.

As for simply wanting everyone to just die, there is a danger there. There is also danger possible in not wanting everyone to die.

Jonah wanted all of Nineveh to die. God did not. It is written that Jonah went and preached the message God gave Jonah, though Jonah knew, despite the message given, they would be saved. If he had not known this, his message would not have been successful.

His faith saved them. His knowledge of God saved them. He was given very unique and noteworthy knowledge in this.

I state this because our wants, of our heart, can effect our reading of Revelation.

'If our hearts are in the best place, then our reading should be good'. To remind of a few verses of the Word. But, where is that place? We see that clearly after the throng left Jesus, after the fish and loaves, and the remaining twelve were arguing over bread.

Their hearts were hard, and they were literally concerned with eating literal bread. Jesus said. Even though, they had just seen endless food created to feed the throng.

All these things, including the failure of most to believe Jesus, and the many errors of Israel which were written, and the failures of the first century Church were written for our benefit. Those who failed got no benefit from it, though some turned around and did.

This is why God had it all written down.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

The verse above proves that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

You are correct Revelation is not in chronological order.

I do not watch videos, sorry, uses too much of my internet data, so can't speak to that, whatever it is.

God Bless.

What verse is this you are speaking of?

Revelation is in very strong chronological order, through the careful depiction of the numbering and sequential sequencing of the seals, the trumpets, and the woes. However, it is possible certain segments are not. One sure segment which is not is the ending statement tacked on to each of the letters to the "seven angels of the seven churches".

If you have evidence this is not the case, please let me know.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I do not engage in any sort of rapture/tribulation debate because I believe it to be intellectually, emotionally and spiritually unhealthy to live your life in constant expectation of the "end times". It is far better to live your life in such a way as to make this a better world, not just for today but into the far distant future.

It depends on your specific circumstances and requirements.

 

[eleos1954]

What verse is this you are speaking of?

Revelation is in very strong chronological order, through the careful depiction of the numbering and sequential sequencing of the seals, the trumpets, and the woes. However, it is possible certain segments are not. One sure segment which is not is the ending statement tacked on to each of the letters to the "seven angels of the seven churches".

If you have evidence this is not the case, please let me know.

"Revelation is in very strong chronological order"

Chronological order - In it's entirety?

 

[Douggg]

"Revelation is in very strong chronological order"

Chronological order - In it's entirety?

The events given in Revelation are in chronological order. But the presentation of the events are grouped in segments. Everything has to be put on a timeline. Organizing and putting events on a timeline has to be done with all of bible prophecy.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church and others believe it to be two people.

Please tell me who believes it to be the Church and if you can show me their web site for me to read up on it.

No, I am older.

So you said that you struggled with Revelation in particular for 30 years.

I have only looked at revelation when I had the vision of Jesus blowing the trumpet at the age of 18 and then a relative pointed out to me that it is in scripture that's all. I also saw New Jerusalem in Heaven partition across the northern and southern hemipheres.

I saw two white balls circling around each other before they collided and the Big Flash. What us this called in scientific terms when two stars/systems collide?

Neutron star collision possibly.

I saw and believed and believe to this very day as something I know for certain.

My statement asking your age was in reference to your usage of the symbolism of years you mentioned to hold.

... looking back...

You stated, "If the anointed two stand before God and continually minister by pouring out the golden oil of Zechariah 4, then how could two people be accounted with the responsibility of the gospel they are preaching for the past 1988 years?"

1988 years is not mentioned anywhere in Revelation.

As 1988 happened thirty years ago, I thought, maybe you are referring to some vision you had in your lifetime.

As this is 2018, I thought, maybe you were referring to the year of your birth, somehow, minus ten years.

I did not mention this to you, but to the other poster on stating dates and time periods, which are not what is mainstream and written down somewhere: to anyone else reading this, they are just numbers on a page. We need where you got those numbers and what you mean by them to be persuaded.

While you may not have interest in persuading anyone, without the specific details, it can not be faulted for anyone not believing you on those specific matters. How can they? Everyone has different readings of timing. I do not, necessarily, as I am undecided on most of these matters.

Further on this below.

I saw two white balls circling around each other before they collided and the Big Flash. What us this called in scientific terms when two stars/systems collide?

Neutron star collision possibly.

I saw and believed and believe to this very day as something I know for certain.

As I noted, 'prophecy is not subject to the interpretation of the prophet'.

I am 48 years old and often mistaken for being in my upper 20s or low 30s. So, I see a miracle every time I look in the mirror. My earliest memories are visions and a life saving miracle. I have had every manner of 'message from Heaven' and miracle over these years. I do not state that to boast, but because I do not want to leave you hanging, thinking no one else has such experiences.

I know, twenty years ago, or so, when I first started talking about some of my more extreme witnesses of Heaven, from Heaven, I was very frustrated, because I felt no one believed me.

I believe you, that you have had visions all your life.

I do not believe you have done the same level of "homework", as I have done, however. I do not believe you have had the same intensity or frequency of messages, however. To be blunt and open.

I do not believe you have been anywhere near the same level of testing, either. Believe me, discussing these matters will open that door. Testing is very necessary - it is what God has given me to do as my day job (with software) - so I am very much a believer in it.

I would love for someone not an angel in Heaven having as much information, because then I would not have to work so hard.

On, specifically, this vision of yours [though be wary of moderators, as they can be finnicky about posting such matters outside the 'spiritual gifts' forums]: I have had specific messaging regarding the same thing, though in these messages it is more along the lines of the Behemoth and Leviathan having it out.

That is, two giants. Not necessarily, specifically, the actual Behemoth and the actual Leviathan.

And, absolutely not, literally, "giants" as in human beings over eight feet tall or something.

Could be the Body of Christ and the Body of Satan. Neither are just one person, though there is a head to each.

(And a complex array of hierarchies within.)

Satan, however, is not light, there is no light in Satan. Satan can seem like light, however. So, that is a big difference between the messaging I have received, and the messaging you have received. You may be seeing, for instance, two big bodies in the Church of Christ circling around each other, then a big flash.

To let you in on something, that Avatar you see I am using is 'Nova'.

'A nova' is when a star collapses in on its' self, and explodes, creating a bright burst of light.

This 'Nova' I use as an avatar here is different. It is a Marvel character. A metaphoric framework which I use, from time to time, as I am in the world, and in the flesh. It is symbolic. The framework is complicated, so I will not go into it here. But, Nova and the many other Novas across the Heavens or universe, does not literally go nova.

Do not get me wrong: I am not faulting you for your path in life. Solomon pointed out that there is no use in saying about the past 'if only I could have done things differently', but there is value in changing course.

I also do not know what all you have been through, nor how you have been tested.

On "neutron stars colliding", that is a bit different, as far as "modern" science allows. Two stars can collide and create a burst of light while destroying their own bodies. As far as "modern" science understands. It should be remembered, however, we do not really know much about the universe. Much of the observations made are extremely limited, based on intense calculations, and they are not reported in this way. Usually.

What is important, however, is whatever the spiritual meaning of that vision may be.

It could be speaking of something observed in the heavens by people on earth. That could indicate something happening on earth. It could be representative of something happening in Heaven. It likely does represent something which you will get the meaning of some day.

On the two witnesses:

A good start is the wiki article, though I disagree with the current one, in how it is presented. [In several ways, not entirely.]

Two witnesses - Wikipedia

I do not know who the two witnesses are. I have some possible suspects. I have not closed that case, that is for sure. I would love that someone could persuade me, and I could chalk that one off the books.

My own main problems with it being literally the Church, the old ones before Jesus, and the new ones, after Jesus is that Revelation 11 does seem to be very much in order in the middle of the first and third woe, as the second woe. And even in order with the seven trumpet blasts. So, that definitely seems to be in sequential order. Further, as I noted elsewhere here [maybe not to you], they even went so far as to be very specific in statements about which is the first, second, and third, and when each is 'yet to come' and when each 'has passed'.

On Revelation, I only noted I had been "studying it for 30 years and do not know the meaning of much", to evade accusations I have not done the homework. That was just a time saver for me, and to avoid people slamming me. Saying "I know what this means" is also something I judge, when I do not believe it is what they know it means.

Most of this homework has been in my heart and mind, of course. I did go out and study extensively, and do continue to look for new material. But, the later is far and few between. I did not read the entire Bible until my early twenties. I am not sure how much I read before then, but I believe I read all of Revelation, and some of the Gospels. I was unchurched, largely, which was for the best. Otherwise, I would have been contaminated.

Likewise, this is another reason why I do not judge you for not having read it all before forty. It is too easy to get contaminated from all of the false information out there. Or, better term: inaccurate information.

Sin, remember means inaccuracy. We can be perfect, but because of the world, still be inaccurate. We are not absolutely accurate in everything we say and do, as inaccuracy is part of being human. Though, it can also be true at the very same time, that we can be accurate even in our inaccuracy. And that is very important to understand. Something we can observe, if we listen and observe.

 

[Dave L]

There is no "millennium". Jesus taught the spiritual nature of the Kingdom which solidly refutes any notion of a physical kingdom in the future.

Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.”Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

 

[ToServe]

There is no "millennium". Jesus taught the spiritual nature of the Kingdom which solidly refutes any notion of a physical kingdom in the future.

Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.”Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

The Millenium signals the opening of the books and accounting for every human who is born and biologically died. Either they are written in the Book of Life or they are written in the Book of Death.

The 7th Trumpet signals the End and the End has not yet come, so long as the Gospel is being witnessed and people of all nations are coming to the knowledge and faith in Christ.

The Invisible Kingdom is one that has workmen ministering to the world and making disciples of the Gentile world until they come to full numbers of accounted for. The evidence shows us that it is work in progress and Paul does mention that Christ will continue to reign through His Cross until he has brought down all authority, power, and dominion and then he will be made subject to the Father when he accomplishes this where God will be all in All, meaning that all are accounted for in the Book of Life.

Once this happens then the Millenium is said to have commenced when death spiritual and death biological is no more, where Satan, hell, and death are annihilated in the Lake of Fire.

You say that there is no Millenium to come?

How so?

Are we not waiting on the hope that on that Day we will be raised and be reunited with Jesus Christ? Is this not what you solemnly hope for, more so than your loved ones around you?

Jesus knows our hearts my friend and there is no escaping that!

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

"Revelation is in very strong chronological order"

Chronological order - In it's entirety?

Again, in context, I was speaking of the parts which are in chronological order, as I stated, and I also stated there may be parts which are not.

This is very clear on two levels: one, I was careful to note that there may be parts, as many suggest, which may not be in chronological order. Such as some happenings in Revelation 12. I do not tend to believe that is so, but I can not entirely rule that out. At this time (obviously). Two, the Book its' self takes great pain to keep the sequence of the ordering of the seals, the trumpets, and the woes.

They even put the three woes under the seven trumpets.

So, unless you want to argue the third woe happens before the second or first, which would mean the order of the fifth, sixth, and seventh trumpets are turned around, then you really have to agree with my statement "Revelation has strong chronological ordering".

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

There is no "millennium". Jesus taught the spiritual nature of the Kingdom which solidly refutes any notion of a physical kingdom in the future.

By "millennium" we mean "the thousand years" written in Revelation. As the word "millennium" does mean a thousand year period, yes, there is a millennium.

Otherwise, you have to state that what is stated in Revelation 20 is a lie.

Rev 20

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison


Those are three testimonies right there that there is a special thousand year period.

Arguing about an entirely different subject to prove this point does not prove it to me.

I would like to know, specifically, how you back up your statement that there is no thousand year period. However, this is not necessary, if you agree that you did not mean to state that there is no thousand year period.

...

Regarding spiritual and physical, which is an entirely different subject, though it is related to the first resurrection:

If you wish to create a subthread about the nature of the new bodies, I am open to that, but I have not discussed those new bodies with you. I will state they are such as what Jesus had, which we can be very sure about -- because that is what was revealed Jesus always had at the mount of transfiguration, when he transfigured!

So, Jesus was in the flesh, but also was disguised in the flesh, as he had his full, perfect spiritual body underneath, all along.

I definitively believe that all believers will 'find that perfection when they see Jesus', but now they do not yet have it as they will have it. As a worm gestates in the cocoon, or a person gestates in the womb.

However, again, this does not mean the "thousand years does not happen" or "there is no millennium".

And all of this is very far removed from the topic of the first post.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Anyway, thanks, apologies did not have the time to get to the rest of that, but will address some of it now.

No problemo Dreamer.
Thanks for reading.

Time is symbolic and considered as such, as I already argued in my response to you. That is, it can be. You take it the same way. I did not add that.

These readings, which are not entirely strange, do require really, deeply taking matters as symbolic beyond what has ever been proven in prophecy well beyond what I was meaning by saying certain segments of time stated may be "symbolic".

(Something which I did mean how you mean it to be "symbolic", as in a year not being a year, with the two witnesses. Though, I more accurately see it as *perhaps* just referring to the time of the ministry of Christ. Or, *perhaps* having delays on days testified. Unlikely, but I can not yet entirely rule this out. Especially as many, such as your self, and the other forementioned poster, do not see those three and a half years as literally what is stated.)

In the books of Daniel and Revelation it has been counted that there are 18 prophetic time periods. I'm talking about the biggie time periods like the time, times and half a time, 1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days the 42 months and so on and so forth. With the exception of something like the "hour" of trial that will come upon the whole world or the ten kings that will receive their power for one "hour" with the composite beast. These could very well be a figure of speech.

But in the cases where we have the translation of prophetic time, the time is still very real. It's just that a "heptad" is a week of years, as opposed to a week of days as in the case of Daniel 9. 70 heptads becomes 490 literal years. It won't work any other way. We know that now because that's what happened. This issue with the time periods has me being as close as i can to saying i'm very sure of it. Much more sure than i am of the two witnesses. They are still a work in progress.

I think what stands out the most in your response, which I did not address was "the Bible and the Holy Spirit" as the two witnesses. I do not believe that is accurate. There are multiple problems with this. One being how specific seeming the timing of the ministry of the two witnesses is. Others being how specific it gets into the details of their death and resurrection.

Sure, "specific" does not mean it is not symbolic. This is one place where you very much take the passage of time as symbolic. As this is not three and a half years by any measure. Further, the Bible was initially written well over a thousand BC by estimates on the time of Moses.

That is, of course, the first part of it.

We do not know where some books come from. For instance, Job. It is remotely possible Job was discovered later, and written even earlier. Unlikely, but possible. There is nothing hinging on Job, nothing which states where he was, and he does not refer back clearly to any previous works.

All of the Bible can be considered prophecy, even if it is clear that it is filtered through the particular souls of those who wrote it. Such as Moses. (Who also was likely dictated everything, or otherwise given everything to write in the tent by Michael, the archangel, who was with him there.)

While it may be true that the Bible did not testify to a wider audience then it received before Jesus, we do have some evidence that it did certainly get read by people of other nations.

Further, Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected. But this is not true for either the Bible nor the Holy Spirit, the later of whom could never be killed, but did go with Jesus down to the grave.

So, how would you explain this?

How can the Bible die? I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase: "a bill was killed in congress". The deaths are real, but at the same time symbolic. Because the two witnesses are two of one kind of thing, and two of another kind of thing. Two olive trees, and two lamp stands. The Holy Spirit inspired Bible speaks of fire that will kill the wicked, fire coming from the mouth of a Holy Spirit inspired Bible, that is how they are doomed to be killed. But i suspect there is a missing component, the lampstands, which will be the human boots on the ground.

The two witnesses are probably also the 144,000, the holy people who, when the shattering of their power comes to an end, all these things would be finished. These are the Lamp STANDS, Your WORD is a LAMP for my feet, a light on my path. It reminds me of when Jesus sent out the 72 and told them they would not have finished going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. 72,000 pairs of the 144,000 spread out around the world.

Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their labor: If either of them falls down, one can help the other up. But pity anyone who falls and has no one to help them up. When they finish their testimony the beast, the one that came up out of the abyss, will make war on them and kill them. Their bodies will lay in the streets all around the world for three and a half literal days. That's why they're called the first fruits.

They make it to New Jerusalem before the rest. Just in time to turn back around and then return with Jesus to do the white horse Rider deal.

It's also like, lets say that it already began but not too many people noticed it. The prophetic time periods force another understanding other than the traditional. The apostasy, the rebellion, the man of sin taking his seat, the AofD standing in an all new holy place and the two witnesses. These things might not be what they told us they would be.

As we speed toward the "darkened" sun.

Follow the Lamb,
Wherever He goes.

 

[BABerean2]

Two olive trees, and two lamp stands.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

.

 

[Dave L]

By "millennium" we mean "the thousand years" written in Revelation. As the word "millennium" does mean a thousand year period, yes, there is a millennium.

Otherwise, you have to state that what is stated in Revelation 20 is a lie.

Rev 20

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison


Those are three testimonies right there that there is a special thousand year period.

Arguing about an entirely different subject to prove this point does not prove it to me.

I would like to know, specifically, how you back up your statement that there is no thousand year period. However, this is not necessary, if you agree that you did not mean to state that there is no thousand year period.

...

Regarding spiritual and physical, which is an entirely different subject, though it is related to the first resurrection:

If you wish to create a subthread about the nature of the new bodies, I am open to that, but I have not discussed those new bodies with you. I will state they are such as what Jesus had, which we can be very sure about -- because that is what was revealed Jesus always had at the mount of transfiguration, when he transfigured!

So, Jesus was in the flesh, but also was disguised in the flesh, as he had his full, perfect spiritual body underneath, all along.

I definitively believe that all believers will 'find that perfection when they see Jesus', but now they do not yet have it as they will have it. As a worm gestates in the cocoon, or a person gestates in the womb.

However, again, this does not mean the "thousand years does not happen" or "there is no millennium".

And all of this is very far removed from the topic of the first post.

The 1000 years in Revelation 20 is not the Kingdom. It is the binding of Satan. When Satan is loosed he attacks the kingdom.

 

[Dave L]

The Millenium signals the opening of the books and accounting for every human who is born and biologically died. Either they are written in the Book of Life or they are written in the Book of Death.

The 7th Trumpet signals the End and the End has not yet come, so long as the Gospel is being witnessed and people of all nations are coming to the knowledge and faith in Christ.

The Invisible Kingdom is one that has workmen ministering to the world and making disciples of the Gentile world until they come to full numbers of accounted for. The evidence shows us that it is work in progress and Paul does mention that Christ will continue to reign through His Cross until he has brought down all authority, power, and dominion and then he will be made subject to the Father when he accomplishes this where God will be all in All, meaning that all are accounted for in the Book of Life.

Once this happens then the Millenium is said to have commenced when death spiritual and death biological is no more, where Satan, hell, and death are annihilated in the Lake of Fire.

You say that there is no Millenium to come?

How so?

Are we not waiting on the hope that on that Day we will be raised and be reunited with Jesus Christ? Is this not what you solemnly hope for, more so than your loved ones around you?

Jesus knows our hearts my friend and there is no escaping that!

Revelation 20 does not mention a millennium. It mentions the binding of Satan from deceiving the nations. And when loosed, he attacks the kingdom. This means the 1000 years are not the kingdom, they represent Satan's binding.

Perhaps you confuse the 1000 years with the New Heavens and Earth that remain forever, not merely 1000 years.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I do not know who the two witnesses are. I have some possible suspects. I have not closed that case, that is for sure. I would love that someone could persuade me, and I could chalk that one off the books.

11:3-4 “The two witnesses,” which are said to be “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks,” represent the Old and New Testaments. The olive trees represent the power of the Holy Spirit. The candlesticks symbolize the spiritual light of the scriptures. Psalm 119:105; Zechariah 4:1-14. The two witnesses were to “prophesy…in sackcloth,” symbolizing mourning. The Bible was not readily available to the common people. There are several reasons for this:

1. It was only available in Hebrew, Greek and Latin;
2. It had to be copied by hand so there were few copies;
3. During religious services both scripture reading and sermons were in Latin;
4. The church’s stance was that since the common people could not understand the Bible, the clergy must interpret it for them;
5. Even after the Bible was translated into the common language of the people, the church forbade them to read it.

Revelation 11 Commentary

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Jesus taught the spiritual nature of the Kingdom which solidly refutes any notion of a physical kingdom in the future.

So glad to see that you recognize that the Israel spoken of at the end of time is spiritual not physical.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[claninja]

[Note: I do not believe the full preterist view is viable, as Satan has not been finally destroyed in the lake of fire. Or, we would not visibily still have princes and principalities running this world. I also do not really consider us to be in the Millennium nor after it as in "fully after it", but lean heavily towards us being before it

It was 1000 years from the time of David until the time of Christ. Christ's, death, resurrection, and ascension is the fulfillment of God's promise to David that he would "never fail to have a man sit on the throne".
Jeremiah 33:14-18 ‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will fulfill the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah. “ ‘In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it c will be called: The Lord Our Righteous Savior.’ For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’ ”

David, knowing that God would place a descendent on his throne, prophesied of the resurrection of Christ. Therefore, the resurrection and ascension of Christ is equal to David's descendent sitting on the throne.
Acts 2:30-31 he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. SEEING WHAT WAS TO COME, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah

Notice, believers in the time of Peter, were ALREADY a kingdom of priests.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a ROYAL priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light
Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,and they reign b on the earth.”
Revelation 20:6 The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

These verb tenses (worshiped, received, lived, reigned) are all the same (aorist indicative active = past tense). With the "and" conjugations and the same exact verb tenses, Revelation 20:4 should be understood as coinciding events. The lived/reigned coincide with not worshiped/not received. These are not separated events
Revelation 20:4 I also saw those had not worshiped the beast or its image AND had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands AND they lived AND reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Thus the 1st resurrection is being born again


When the millennium was fulfilled (Christ ascending to the throne 1000 years after David, thus fulfilling David to "never lack a man on the throne), Satan's time was then short:
Revelation 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

When Jesus ascended to the throne, his kingdom, power, and authority came. Satan was then cast out and his time was then short:
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them!But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

There is no Christ reigning on earth for a literal 1000 years, and there are not scriptures outside of revelation 20 to confirm a literal 1000 year earthly reign.



Satan was soon about to be crushed during the time of Paul's generation.
Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

 

[parousia70]

You say that there is no Millenium to come?

How so?

A future literal "thousand years" period is taught nowhere in scripture. You can't find it in the Old Testament. You can't find it in the gospels or the epistles. The only mention of such is Rev 20, in which the "thousand years" is one of the book's many symbolic images.

It is crucial to note that the gospels and epistles explicitly teach that the resurrection, the "New Heavens/Earth," and the judgment all take place at the second coming of Christ. They are not separated out in any fashion by any future thousand-years period as millennialists would have it.

As to the "millennium," the bible proves it is not a real historic thing:

Since the resurrection occurs at the second coming (1 Cor 15:23)...

And since the judgment occurs at the second coming (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)...

And since the New Heaven/Earth occurs at the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)...

THEREFORE we know there is no literal historic millennium. The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." The "thousand years" is a typological symbol in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.