Where Are We: Before the Millennium, After, or Somewhere In Between?

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

[Note: I do not believe the full preterist view is viable, as Satan has not been finally destroyed in the lake of fire. Or, we would not visibily still have princes and principalities running this world. I also do not really consider us to be in the Millennium nor after it as in "fully after it", but lean heavily towards us being before it. But, I do wish to be tested on this, and I am testing this by posting this. However, I do say "I do not know" on matters which the major systems argue are known, though do not believe this should be controversial as Jesus strongly taught us to say "I do not know" on prophetic interpretation. So, I post this here, expecting, as it has had in the past, people who can prove their various beliefs or provide something new.]


You can fire away without reading this, but the most *beneficial* response will be those which read this, first.

I am wary of hardened spirits, of traditionalist viewpoints, and of assumption of knowledge: I strive for high accuracy in my Christian life, and expect the same of others. We were given the examples of "how not to be" by Israel, including with how Israel was when Jesus testified to them.

That, specifically, in regards to eschatology were people who did embrace traditionalist viewpoints, and do say, "I know, I know" -- when they should have been wary of those very viewpoints, and seeking. Saying, "I do not know".

If you feel that is you, then you probably should not respond, nor read further.

At the same time, there were some truths to some of the viewpoints the Jews had at the time. So, I certainly do not wish to entirely discard people who are heavy in one major view or the other. Fact is, I have been heavy on Revelation for a good thirty years now. I think about it every single day. And, it can be torturous to be unwilling to simply 'give up' and accept one interpretation - new or old - over others. It is even worse to not do one's homework, and simply believe whatever one is told, like the cults do.

What we can believe what we are told is the Word, the Message of Christ. But, on prophecy, even the prophets themselves did not know what it meant, and we are warned of that when attempting to interpret it.

Here is what "I do not know", if you wish to counter me, feel free to simply paraphrase verses, but I do ask you rely on honest reasoning with scales and weights that are as unbiased as possible:

What I know:

-> There is plenty in Revelation for believers to take hold of. Without having to settle on this or that viewpoint. This can be very difficult to do.
-> Revelation predicts disaster for the spiritual prince and princes of this world, so you can be sure that it is something that very well may not be discerned by even them.
-> Heaven is much higher then earth, 'my ways are not your ways, as the heavens are higher then earth, so are my ways higher then man's ways'. Early on, however, we do see major celestial beings ignorant of prophetic interpretation, but coming to be informed. We also can consider that 'even angels long to look into these matters' can continue to be the case that even angels have to see how things unfold on earth. Though, at certain junctures in Revelation they do seem to have a firm grasp of what is going on, which earth is blind to.
-> Even believers, the Chosen, can be misled. There are limits to how far misled they can be, but they can be misled. In terms of prophetic interpretation, we are not given any guarantees there. There can definitely be significant errors in the major doctrines. Or ones that are well off the road.

-> A lot of the material of the major eschatological doctrines do reek of the flesh, at best. I do not mean 'the big picture' presented, necessarily, but it is typically in the all important details where they tend to fall apart.

-> Heaven comes to earth. Jesus said this, this is clearly stated in Revelation. One of the bigger details that tend to derail popular, traditional, major eschatological doctrines for me. That is a real big, obvious hole in many of these systems, though, on the surface, it tends to really be stuck in the details -- but because it is there and a pillar of it, it has me lose confidence in the entire viewpoint.

-> The Chosen, who are not asleep, are on earth. They are also of Heaven and in Heaven, but they are on earth, as well.

-> There is specific sequential ordering in the Seals, the Woes, the Trumpets, the two resurrections. In Revelation. On the first and second resurrection, I mostly do lean strongly lean towards these being sequential and the first being at the start of the Millennium. But, I have not yet entirely ruled out the possibility that the Millennium and the resurrections being something beyond our current understanding.



What I do not know:



-> How long are the time periods in Revelation. How long is the time period, overall, from the time of Jesus opening the seals to the start of the Millennium. I am certainly aware of many of the popular interpretations here, but remain unconvinced. As deeply encoded or metaphoric as Revelation is - for instance - and the apocalyptic sayings of Jesus, we can not even assume three and a half years is literally three and a half years.
-> What has passed and what is yet to come. I had been pretty comfortable with much of what happened before Revelation 11 (the two witnesses) as being possibly something which had come to pass already and we may just not know it on earth. In the 'not so distant' past, I have come to conclude even Revelation 11 could have already come to past, and earth simply not know of it. I do here mean "earth" including the Chosen. Three and a half years was how long the ministry of Christ Jesus was, so we might expect that there is a firm "three and a half year" period in there. But, we might also be able to see that as a metaphoric period.
-> Who are the "two witnesses". There was an excellent thread on this, which I needed, a number of months ago. The poster's conclusion - and my own - was that "nobody knows". This certainly makes sense, as it is these two who the prophet Zechariah seemed as if to surprise "Heaven", with the response, "You do not know who these two are?" That 'the world celebrates and give each other presents in celebration of their death' does not mean anything when you consider that they do this for Christmas. Some could take Christmas that way, certainly, many do. Perhaps this speaks of something else, and the world simply sees them as someone they were not.

-> Details on the first and second Resurrection. I lean towards both being very literal resurrections. The first seems most likely to also include 'those who are still living with us'. This is not a viewpoint I have ever had anyone else seriously explore with me on earth.

-> What 'where the carrions or eagles fly, there is where the body is' really means in terms of the return of Jesus. Little statements like this completely rip apart earthly theories. It, like other such details remain deeply mysterious.

-> What the symbolism of Zechariah's Joshua and Zerubabbel mean. Joshua was the High Priest of Israel returning from the Babylonian captivity, and Zerubabbel was the King. Yes, we can point to Jesus in this, but we can do that with everything. Zechariah gets specific here. And Moses is put into the place as Joshua here, via Jude and Peter.
-> When a literal mass transfiguration happens. Jesus hid his spiritual body, but showed it during the transfiguration. We have a good idea of what that sort of body looks like from Scripture. But, it well may be that this change happens without the physical form being discarded, at first.
-> Who the child is in Revelation 12. Satan has been all over this verse. The world states that Revelation 12 "happened long ago" and even try and claim it is speaking of the Garden.

-> Who the rider on the horse is, and who the horse is.
-> How long the Millennium will be, and what it will be like. Further, if it is past - I do strongly doubt this, but can not entirely rule it out, yet - or if it is yet to come. How far off. I do lean towards it being "soon".

-> How the initial holding of Satan as "the beast" - he is there identified as Satan, who is the Destroyer - is related to the holding of Satan in the Abyss during the Millennium. Or, why both before and after the Millennium you see the very same thing happen: Satan being in the Abyss and released, and then coming to attack the Body of Christ. One possibility has been stated on this forum before that 'maybe the two are the same thing', though this seems to throw everything out of order and unnecessary. But, this seems to break the sequential pace of Revelation, and "God is a God of order, not chaos", so that is really hard to fit anywhere unless the Millennium is just beyond our current understanding. Maybe even of time.

-> What the third woe is. What the first woe is. I already mentioned the second. I do not know what the trumpets are. I do not believe we are past the third woe, yet, as evil still is in rule of the world. While Satan has remained the prince of this world - somehow - though he was also said to be in the Abyss, does seem to indicate he and his angels had some manner of major revelation which enlightened them enough to torment the earth. He is the angel of darkness 'with no light in him', so he could be in the abyss, yet be symbolically released, and - at the same time - have access to Heaven, until just before the third woe and his final fall.



What I know I do not know remains more then all of this, but this is more then enough here.

 

[keras]

All we really need to know at present, is that very soon the Lord will cause a worldwide disaster that will dramatically change everything as we know it.
This will be the event Jesus predicted in Matthew 24:36-41 and the Sixth Seal, Day of the Lord's wrath. An event of the scale of Noah's Flood, but this time there will be more survivors. Luke 21:25-26, 2 Peter 3:7
It will be after this shaking of the nations, Hebrews 12:26, that all Christians will finally understand God's plans and purposes. Isaiah 29:23-24, Isaiah 32:3-4, Isaiah 42:18-19, Isaiah 35:4-5, Jeremiah 23:20
Ref; logostelos.info

 

[Douggg]

[Note: I do not believe the full preterist view is viable, as Satan has not been finally destroyed in the lake of fire. Or, we would not visibily still have princes and principalities running this world. I also do not really consider us to be in the Millennium nor after it as in "fully after it", but lean heavily towards us being before it. But, I do wish to be tested on this, and I am testing this by posting this. However, I do say "I do not know" on matters which the major systems argue are known, though do not believe this should be controversial as Jesus strongly taught us to say "I do not know" on prophetic interpretation. So, I post this here, expecting, as it has had in the past, people who can prove their various beliefs or provide something new.]


You can fire away without reading this, but the most *beneficial* response will be those which read this, first.

I am wary of hardened spirits, of traditionalist viewpoints, and of assumption of knowledge: I strive for high accuracy in my Christian life, and expect the same of others. We were given the examples of "how not to be" by Israel, including with how Israel was when Jesus testified to them.

That, specifically, in regards to eschatology were people who did embrace traditionalist viewpoints, and do say, "I know, I know" -- when they should have been wary of those very viewpoints, and seeking. Saying, "I do not know".

If you feel that is you, then you probably should not respond, nor read further.

At the same time, there were some truths to some of the viewpoints the Jews had at the time. So, I certainly do not wish to entirely discard people who are heavy in one major view or the other. Fact is, I have been heavy on Revelation for a good thirty years now. I think about it every single day. And, it can be torturous to be unwilling to simply 'give up' and accept one interpretation - new or old - over others. It is even worse to not do one's homework, and simply believe whatever one is told, like the cults do.

What we can believe what we are told is the Word, the Message of Christ. But, on prophecy, even the prophets themselves did not know what it meant, and we are warned of that when attempting to interpret it.

Here is what "I do not know", if you wish to counter me, feel free to simply paraphrase verses, but I do ask you rely on honest reasoning with scales and weights that are as unbiased as possible:

What I know:

-> There is plenty in Revelation for believers to take hold of. Without having to settle on this or that viewpoint. This can be very difficult to do.
-> Revelation predicts disaster for the spiritual prince and princes of this world, so you can be sure that it is something that very well may not be discerned by even them.
-> Heaven is much higher then earth, 'my ways are not your ways, as the heavens are higher then earth, so are my ways higher then man's ways'. Early on, however, we do see major celestial beings ignorant of prophetic interpretation, but coming to be informed. We also can consider that 'even angels long to look into these matters' can continue to be the case that even angels have to see how things unfold on earth. Though, at certain junctures in Revelation they do seem to have a firm grasp of what is going on, which earth is blind to.
-> Even believers, the Chosen, can be misled. There are limits to how far misled they can be, but they can be misled. In terms of prophetic interpretation, we are not given any guarantees there. There can definitely be significant errors in the major doctrines. Or ones that are well off the road.

-> A lot of the material of the major eschatological doctrines do reek of the flesh, at best. I do not mean 'the big picture' presented, necessarily, but it is typically in the all important details where they tend to fall apart.

-> Heaven comes to earth. Jesus said this, this is clearly stated in Revelation. One of the bigger details that tend to derail popular, traditional, major eschatological doctrines for me. That is a real big, obvious hole in many of these systems, though, on the surface, it tends to really be stuck in the details -- but because it is there and a pillar of it, it has me lose confidence in the entire viewpoint.

-> The Chosen, who are not asleep, are on earth. They are also of Heaven and in Heaven, but they are on earth, as well.

-> There is specific sequential ordering in the Seals, the Woes, the Trumpets, the two resurrections. In Revelation. On the first and second resurrection, I mostly do lean strongly lean towards these being sequential and the first being at the start of the Millennium. But, I have not yet entirely ruled out the possibility that the Millennium and the resurrections being something beyond our current understanding.



What I do not know:



-> How long are the time periods in Revelation. How long is the time period, overall, from the time of Jesus opening the seals to the start of the Millennium. I am certainly aware of many of the popular interpretations here, but remain unconvinced. As deeply encoded or metaphoric as Revelation is - for instance - and the apocalyptic sayings of Jesus, we can not even assume three and a half years is literally three and a half years.
-> What has passed and what is yet to come. I had been pretty comfortable with much of what happened before Revelation 11 (the two witnesses) as being possibly something which had come to pass already and we may just not know it on earth. In the 'not so distant' past, I have come to conclude even Revelation 11 could have already come to past, and earth simply not know of it. I do here mean "earth" including the Chosen. Three and a half years was how long the ministry of Christ Jesus was, so we might expect that there is a firm "three and a half year" period in there. But, we might also be able to see that as a metaphoric period.
-> Who are the "two witnesses". There was an excellent thread on this, which I needed, a number of months ago. The poster's conclusion - and my own - was that "nobody knows". This certainly makes sense, as it is these two who the prophet Zechariah seemed as if to surprise "Heaven", with the response, "You do not know who these two are?" That 'the world celebrates and give each other presents in celebration of their death' does not mean anything when you consider that they do this for Christmas. Some could take Christmas that way, certainly, many do. Perhaps this speaks of something else, and the world simply sees them as someone they were not.

-> Details on the first and second Resurrection. I lean towards both being very literal resurrections. The first seems most likely to also include 'those who are still living with us'. This is not a viewpoint I have ever had anyone else seriously explore with me on earth.

-> What 'where the carrions or eagles fly, there is where the body is' really means in terms of the return of Jesus. Little statements like this completely rip apart earthly theories. It, like other such details remain deeply mysterious.

-> What the symbolism of Zechariah's Joshua and Zerubabbel mean. Joshua was the High Priest of Israel returning from the Babylonian captivity, and Zerubabbel was the King. Yes, we can point to Jesus in this, but we can do that with everything. Zechariah gets specific here. And Moses is put into the place as Joshua here, via Jude and Peter.
-> When a literal mass transfiguration happens. Jesus hid his spiritual body, but showed it during the transfiguration. We have a good idea of what that sort of body looks like from Scripture. But, it well may be that this change happens without the physical form being discarded, at first.
-> Who the child is in Revelation 12. Satan has been all over this verse. The world states that Revelation 12 "happened long ago" and even try and claim it is speaking of the Garden.

-> Who the rider on the horse is, and who the horse is.
-> How long the Millennium will be, and what it will be like. Further, if it is past - I do strongly doubt this, but can not entirely rule it out, yet - or if it is yet to come. How far off. I do lean towards it being "soon".

-> How the initial holding of Satan as "the beast" - he is there identified as Satan, who is the Destroyer - is related to the holding of Satan in the Abyss during the Millennium. Or, why both before and after the Millennium you see the very same thing happen: Satan being in the Abyss and released, and then coming to attack the Body of Christ. One possibility has been stated on this forum before that 'maybe the two are the same thing', though this seems to throw everything out of order and unnecessary. But, this seems to break the sequential pace of Revelation, and "God is a God of order, not chaos", so that is really hard to fit anywhere unless the Millennium is just beyond our current understanding. Maybe even of time.

-> What the third woe is. What the first woe is. I already mentioned the second. I do not know what the trumpets are. I do not believe we are past the third woe, yet, as evil still is in rule of the world. While Satan has remained the prince of this world - somehow - though he was also said to be in the Abyss, does seem to indicate he and his angels had some manner of major revelation which enlightened them enough to torment the earth. He is the angel of darkness 'with no light in him', so he could be in the abyss, yet be symbolically released, and - at the same time - have access to Heaven, until just before the third woe and his final fall.



What I know I do not know remains more then all of this, but this is more then enough here.

In regards to the topic question - the millennium is not more than 2037 away.

Where we are now end times wise is right before the ten kings and the little horn emerge in the EU. We are also on the doorstep of Gog/Magog.

Which following Gog/Magog, the 7 years begin in Ezekiel 39. And end in Ezekiel 39.

The 7 years following Gog/Magog is as concrete as anything we have as far as timing goes. Why so? Because the Armageddon feast is in Ezekiel 39:17-20. And it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, having returned to earth.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

All we really need to know at present, is that very soon the Lord will cause a worldwide disaster that will dramatically change everything as we know it.
This will be the event Jesus predicted in Matthew 24:36-41 and the Sixth Seal, Day of the Lord's wrath. An event of the scale of Noah's Flood, but this time there will be more survivors. Luke 21:25-26, 2 Peter 3:7
It will be after this shaking of the nations, Hebrews 12:26, that all Christians will finally understand God's plans and purposes. Isaiah 29:23-24, Isaiah 32:3-4, Isaiah 42:18-19, Isaiah 35:4-5, Jeremiah 23:20
Ref; logostelos.info

I do not disagree with this general stance, as must be clear, I am willing to suffer not knowing matters. I have good reason for keeping on this path. I do need answers, however, due to specific messages through my life. They will come, eventually.

 

[ToServe]

[Note: I do not believe the full preterist view is viable, as Satan has not been finally destroyed in the lake of fire. Or, we would not visibily still have princes and principalities running this world. I also do not really consider us to be in the Millennium nor after it as in "fully after it", but lean heavily towards us being before it. But, I do wish to be tested on this, and I am testing this by posting this. However, I do say "I do not know" on matters which the major systems argue are known, though do not believe this should be controversial as Jesus strongly taught us to say "I do not know" on prophetic interpretation. So, I post this here, expecting, as it has had in the past, people who can prove their various beliefs or provide something new.]


You can fire away without reading this, but the most *beneficial* response will be those which read this, first.

I am wary of hardened spirits, of traditionalist viewpoints, and of assumption of knowledge: I strive for high accuracy in my Christian life, and expect the same of others. We were given the examples of "how not to be" by Israel, including with how Israel was when Jesus testified to them.

That, specifically, in regards to eschatology were people who did embrace traditionalist viewpoints, and do say, "I know, I know" -- when they should have been wary of those very viewpoints, and seeking. Saying, "I do not know".

If you feel that is you, then you probably should not respond, nor read further.

At the same time, there were some truths to some of the viewpoints the Jews had at the time. So, I certainly do not wish to entirely discard people who are heavy in one major view or the other. Fact is, I have been heavy on Revelation for a good thirty years now. I think about it every single day. And, it can be torturous to be unwilling to simply 'give up' and accept one interpretation - new or old - over others. It is even worse to not do one's homework, and simply believe whatever one is told, like the cults do.

What we can believe what we are told is the Word, the Message of Christ. But, on prophecy, even the prophets themselves did not know what it meant, and we are warned of that when attempting to interpret it.

Here is what "I do not know", if you wish to counter me, feel free to simply paraphrase verses, but I do ask you rely on honest reasoning with scales and weights that are as unbiased as possible:

What I know:

-> There is plenty in Revelation for believers to take hold of. Without having to settle on this or that viewpoint. This can be very difficult to do.
-> Revelation predicts disaster for the spiritual prince and princes of this world, so you can be sure that it is something that very well may not be discerned by even them.
-> Heaven is much higher then earth, 'my ways are not your ways, as the heavens are higher then earth, so are my ways higher then man's ways'. Early on, however, we do see major celestial beings ignorant of prophetic interpretation, but coming to be informed. We also can consider that 'even angels long to look into these matters' can continue to be the case that even angels have to see how things unfold on earth. Though, at certain junctures in Revelation they do seem to have a firm grasp of what is going on, which earth is blind to.
-> Even believers, the Chosen, can be misled. There are limits to how far misled they can be, but they can be misled. In terms of prophetic interpretation, we are not given any guarantees there. There can definitely be significant errors in the major doctrines. Or ones that are well off the road.

-> A lot of the material of the major eschatological doctrines do reek of the flesh, at best. I do not mean 'the big picture' presented, necessarily, but it is typically in the all important details where they tend to fall apart.

-> Heaven comes to earth. Jesus said this, this is clearly stated in Revelation. One of the bigger details that tend to derail popular, traditional, major eschatological doctrines for me. That is a real big, obvious hole in many of these systems, though, on the surface, it tends to really be stuck in the details -- but because it is there and a pillar of it, it has me lose confidence in the entire viewpoint.

-> The Chosen, who are not asleep, are on earth. They are also of Heaven and in Heaven, but they are on earth, as well.

-> There is specific sequential ordering in the Seals, the Woes, the Trumpets, the two resurrections. In Revelation. On the first and second resurrection, I mostly do lean strongly lean towards these being sequential and the first being at the start of the Millennium. But, I have not yet entirely ruled out the possibility that the Millennium and the resurrections being something beyond our current understanding.



What I do not know:



-> How long are the time periods in Revelation. How long is the time period, overall, from the time of Jesus opening the seals to the start of the Millennium. I am certainly aware of many of the popular interpretations here, but remain unconvinced. As deeply encoded or metaphoric as Revelation is - for instance - and the apocalyptic sayings of Jesus, we can not even assume three and a half years is literally three and a half years.
-> What has passed and what is yet to come. I had been pretty comfortable with much of what happened before Revelation 11 (the two witnesses) as being possibly something which had come to pass already and we may just not know it on earth. In the 'not so distant' past, I have come to conclude even Revelation 11 could have already come to past, and earth simply not know of it. I do here mean "earth" including the Chosen. Three and a half years was how long the ministry of Christ Jesus was, so we might expect that there is a firm "three and a half year" period in there. But, we might also be able to see that as a metaphoric period.
-> Who are the "two witnesses". There was an excellent thread on this, which I needed, a number of months ago. The poster's conclusion - and my own - was that "nobody knows". This certainly makes sense, as it is these two who the prophet Zechariah seemed as if to surprise "Heaven", with the response, "You do not know who these two are?" That 'the world celebrates and give each other presents in celebration of their death' does not mean anything when you consider that they do this for Christmas. Some could take Christmas that way, certainly, many do. Perhaps this speaks of something else, and the world simply sees them as someone they were not.

-> Details on the first and second Resurrection. I lean towards both being very literal resurrections. The first seems most likely to also include 'those who are still living with us'. This is not a viewpoint I have ever had anyone else seriously explore with me on earth.

-> What 'where the carrions or eagles fly, there is where the body is' really means in terms of the return of Jesus. Little statements like this completely rip apart earthly theories. It, like other such details remain deeply mysterious.

-> What the symbolism of Zechariah's Joshua and Zerubabbel mean. Joshua was the High Priest of Israel returning from the Babylonian captivity, and Zerubabbel was the King. Yes, we can point to Jesus in this, but we can do that with everything. Zechariah gets specific here. And Moses is put into the place as Joshua here, via Jude and Peter.
-> When a literal mass transfiguration happens. Jesus hid his spiritual body, but showed it during the transfiguration. We have a good idea of what that sort of body looks like from Scripture. But, it well may be that this change happens without the physical form being discarded, at first.
-> Who the child is in Revelation 12. Satan has been all over this verse. The world states that Revelation 12 "happened long ago" and even try and claim it is speaking of the Garden.

-> Who the rider on the horse is, and who the horse is.
-> How long the Millennium will be, and what it will be like. Further, if it is past - I do strongly doubt this, but can not entirely rule it out, yet - or if it is yet to come. How far off. I do lean towards it being "soon".

-> How the initial holding of Satan as "the beast" - he is there identified as Satan, who is the Destroyer - is related to the holding of Satan in the Abyss during the Millennium. Or, why both before and after the Millennium you see the very same thing happen: Satan being in the Abyss and released, and then coming to attack the Body of Christ. One possibility has been stated on this forum before that 'maybe the two are the same thing', though this seems to throw everything out of order and unnecessary. But, this seems to break the sequential pace of Revelation, and "God is a God of order, not chaos", so that is really hard to fit anywhere unless the Millennium is just beyond our current understanding. Maybe even of time.

-> What the third woe is. What the first woe is. I already mentioned the second. I do not know what the trumpets are. I do not believe we are past the third woe, yet, as evil still is in rule of the world. While Satan has remained the prince of this world - somehow - though he was also said to be in the Abyss, does seem to indicate he and his angels had some manner of major revelation which enlightened them enough to torment the earth. He is the angel of darkness 'with no light in him', so he could be in the abyss, yet be symbolically released, and - at the same time - have access to Heaven, until just before the third woe and his final fall.



What I know I do not know remains more then all of this, but this is more then enough here.

30 years ha?
It just goes to show that God has a way of revealing things to the masses in good timing and you asking these inquisitive questions is proof positive of this.

I fall in the same boat as most people, yet what has been imparted to me is in my lifelong visions before I even picked up on Revelation in my 40s.

I know for certain that the 7th Trumpet is sounded by Jesus himself when it is declared "time is up".

I know for certain that New Jerusalem is a Heavenly City that caters for two parts the northern congregation that represent the Old Testament redeemed saints (Former Sea) and the southern congregation that represent the New Testament redeemed saints (Latter Sea).

I know for certain that before Jesus comes as the brilliant flash that erases the 1st earth and the 1st heaven that most people in the world will die and the planet is a barely habitable place.

I know for certain that Jesus is not going to transform this earth and that this realm will be no more.

What I do not know but have come to understand is that Satan after the Cross has been shut up as the accuser until the ministry of the two witnesses is complete.

What I do not know but have come to understand is that Daniel's 70th week (69 week to 70 week range) is comprised of Jesus ministering to the Jews (144,000) for the 1st half of the week until 69.5 weeks symbolic timeline marker and the Church (two anointed ones) ministering to the Gentiles within the outer court of the Gentiles at large for the remaining half of the week from 69.5 to 70th week expiry.

What I do not know but have come to understand is that the two witnesses who pour out the golden oil of salvation through the seven candlestick menorah of God are the two olive trees comprised of both Jews and Gentiles within the construct of the New Testament Church.

When the Church finishes her testimony from the Little Sweet Book the Gospel of Jesus Christ then Satan is given access to destroy the Church with the exception of a remnant Elect who are protected. Though at this time the door of Grace has been closed and the Commission completed.

The Church finishes her commission at the 1260 day marker, then Satan persecutes the Church at the 1290 day marker by removing the Living Stones (The Daily Sacrifice) within the New Testament Holy Spirit Temple Construct on the Great Day of Battle of God all Might mentioned in the opening paragraph of Zechariah 14. At the 1335 day marker, the blessed who remain on a completely condemned planet before the Lord's Brilliant Flash Coming are the remanent Elect. The Beast is portrayed as encircling the camp of the saints/elect and then fire coming down (Brilliant Coming) on top of the enemies.

The Millenium that Satan is chained or prevented from shutting down the Church's commission owing to the Living Stones from the two olive trees (two witnesses) is during the 69.5 to 70 weeks marker of time, times and half a time (1260) given to the Church (The Woman with the child/Gospel) to make disciples of the world within the outer gentile court until the Gentiles are fully accounted for in the Book of Life before the Final Judgement at Christ's Brilliant Coming.

Satan is realized at the 1290 day marker to remove the Church and those who remain until the 1335 day marker at Christ's Brilliant coming are the Elect who will be translated into their Heavenly Bodies within Christ's Father's House of Many Rooms/Dimensions.

The Millenium Reign of Christ commences to eternity after all the events above have concluded and the books are opened that accounts for every human that was ever born and the ones who are found in the Book of Life have entered the Gates of New Jerusalem and take part in the Wedding Supper of the Lamb reserved for his Bride and the others found in the Book of Death are cast into the Lake of Fire to be annihilated and Hell and Biological/Spiritual Death cannot continue past this point as Christ has delivered the Kingdom to God the Father and has destroyed the Final enemy Death and now becomes subject to the Father as God is all in all those who were to be found in the Book of Life and all are now accounted for.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 declares the order of the resurrection as Christ the forerunner then the 144,000 (Former Sea OT) firstfruits Jews who sing the song of Moses, than those Latter Sea NT Church members who belong to Him who sing the song of the Lamb having palm branches in their hands and who have made their garments white by the Blood of the Lamb of God.

When Jesus returns he comes to destroy Satan, Hell, Death (spiritual/biological), 1st heaven, 1st earth by dissolving the material realm our earthly bodies were created to habitat. The Lake of Fire is a metaphor for annihilation that is an eraser.

Jesus does not come and reign on earth with mortals amongst the earthly kingdoms of man, but merely destroys all those kingdoms by owning them through the winning of hearts and minds of peoples of all languages and nations that belong to those kingdoms. Jesus does this by stripping away at Satan's earthly kingdoms by reigning from his Cross and through his Cross until he puts down all rule, authority, and power. In this regard from the Cross, Satan has been powerless (chained) to do anything about it and he has been unable to halt this onslaught against his earthly kingdoms that he once offered to Jesus.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

30 years ha?
It just goes to show that God has a way of revealing things to the masses in good timing and you asking these inquisitive questions is proof positive of this.

I fall in the same boat as most people, yet what has been imparted to me is in my lifelong visions before I even picked up on Revelation in my 40s.

I know for certain that the 7th Trumpet is sounded by Jesus himself when it is declared "time is up".

I know for certain that New Jerusalem is a Heavenly City that caters for two parts the northern congregation that represent the Old Testament redeemed saints (Former Sea) and the southern congregation that represent the New Testament redeemed saints (Latter Sea).

I know for certain that before Jesus comes as the brilliant flash that erases the 1st earth and the 1st heaven that most people in the world will die and the planet is a barely habitable place.

I know for certain that Jesus is not going to transform this earth and that this realm will be no more.

What I do not know but have come to understand is that Satan after the Cross has been shut up as the accuser until the ministry of the two witnesses is complete.

What I do not know but have come to understand is that Daniel's 70th week (69 week to 70 week range) is comprised of Jesus ministering to the Jews (144,000) for the 1st half of the week until 69.5 weeks symbolic timeline marker and the Church (two anointed ones) ministering to the Gentiles within the outer court of the Gentiles at large for the remaining half of the week from 69.5 to 70th week expiry.

What I do not know but have come to understand is that the two witnesses who pour out the golden oil of salvation through the seven candlestick menorah of God are the two olive trees comprised of both Jews and Gentiles within the construct of the New Testament Church.

When the Church finishes her testimony from the Little Sweet Book the Gospel of Jesus Christ then Satan is given access to destroy the Church with the exception of a remnant Elect who are protected. Though at this time the door of Grace has been closed and the Commission completed.

The Church finishes her commission at the 1260 day marker, then Satan persecutes the Church at the 1290 day marker by removing the Living Stones (The Daily Sacrifice) within the New Testament Holy Spirit Temple Construct on the Great Day of Battle of God all Might mentioned in the opening paragraph of Zechariah 14. At the 1335 day marker, the blessed who remain on a completely condemned planet before the Lord's Brilliant Flash Coming are the remanent Elect. The Beast is portrayed as encircling the camp of the saints/elect and then fire coming down (Brilliant Coming) on top of the enemies.

The Millenium that Satan is chained or prevented from shutting down the Church's commission owing to the Living Stones from the two olive trees (two witnesses) is during the 69.5 to 70 weeks marker of time, times and half a time (1260) given to the Church (The Woman with the child/Gospel) to make disciples of the world within the outer gentile court until the Gentiles are fully accounted for in the Book of Life before the Final Judgement at Christ's Brilliant Coming.

Satan is realized at the 1290 day marker to remove the Church and those who remain until the 1335 day marker at Christ's Brilliant coming are the Elect who will be translated into their Heavenly Bodies within Christ's Father's House of Many Rooms/Dimensions.

The Millenium Reign of Christ commences to eternity after all the events above have concluded and the books are opened that accounts for every human that was ever born and the ones who are found in the Book of Life have entered the Gates of New Jerusalem and take part in the Wedding Supper of the Lamb reserved for his Bride and the others found in the Book of Death are cast into the Lake of Fire to be annihilated and Hell and Biological/Spiritual Death cannot continue past this point as Christ has delivered the Kingdom to God the Father and has destroyed the Final enemy Death and now becomes subject to the Father as God is all in all those who were to be found in the Book of Life and all are now accounted for.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 declares the order of the resurrection as Christ the forerunner then the 144,000 (Former Sea OT) firstfruits Jews who sing the song of Moses, than those Latter Sea NT Church members who belong to Him who sing the song of the Lamb having palm branches in their hands and who have made their garments white by the Blood of the Lamb of God.

When Jesus returns he comes to destroy Satan, Hell, Death (spiritual/biological), 1st heaven, 1st earth by dissolving the material realm our earthly bodies were created to habitat. The Lake of Fire is a metaphor for annihilation that is an eraser.

Jesus does not come and reign on earth with mortals amongst the earthly kingdoms of man, but merely destroys all those kingdoms by owning them through the winning of hearts and minds of peoples of all languages and nations that belong to those kingdoms. Jesus does this by stripping away at Satan's earthly kingdoms by reigning from his Cross and through his Cross until he puts down all rule, authority, and power. In this regard from the Cross, Satan has been powerless (chained) to do anything about it and he has been unable to halt this onslaught against his earthly kingdoms that he once offered to Jesus.

Thanks for the description, I wrote out an in-depth response, but don't believe you need it.

(The system would not allow me to post what was going to be more then 18,000 characters. Modern technology for you. Lol.)

This was what I was looking for in this thread. Writing it out detailed responses gave me the explanations required for what you stated.

 

[Douggg]

What I do not know:



-> How long are the time periods in Revelation.

Revelation 6-19 is what takes place during the 7 years, the 70th week of Daniel 9.

2520 days long. Although there will be leap month years during that time, it is impossible to know where those fall, so it is not addressed in prophecy. A year, therefore, is considered 360 days.

1st half of the seven years (exactly to the day)
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

IN the second half of the seven years
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
time, times, half time - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

The 1260 days is to the day, exactly half of the seven years. Differently, the other timeframes of 42 months and time times half time are not EXACTLY equivalent to 1260 days - in Revelation.

day 1.......................day 1260 - exactly (the first) half of the 7 years.

day 1260....day 1263.5.... leaves 1256.5 days (expressed as 42 month) in the 2nd half.

day 1263.5... then earth time passes for the war in heaven.... leaves a time times half time in the second half.

 

[eleos1954]

[Note: I do not believe the full preterist view is viable, as Satan has not been finally destroyed in the lake of fire. Or, we would not visibily still have princes and principalities running this world. I also do not really consider us to be in the Millennium nor after it as in "fully after it", but lean heavily towards us being before it. But, I do wish to be tested on this, and I am testing this by posting this. However, I do say "I do not know" on matters which the major systems argue are known, though do not believe this should be controversial as Jesus strongly taught us to say "I do not know" on prophetic interpretation. So, I post this here, expecting, as it has had in the past, people who can prove their various beliefs or provide something new.]


You can fire away without reading this, but the most *beneficial* response will be those which read this, first.

I am wary of hardened spirits, of traditionalist viewpoints, and of assumption of knowledge: I strive for high accuracy in my Christian life, and expect the same of others. We were given the examples of "how not to be" by Israel, including with how Israel was when Jesus testified to them.

That, specifically, in regards to eschatology were people who did embrace traditionalist viewpoints, and do say, "I know, I know" -- when they should have been wary of those very viewpoints, and seeking. Saying, "I do not know".

If you feel that is you, then you probably should not respond, nor read further.

At the same time, there were some truths to some of the viewpoints the Jews had at the time. So, I certainly do not wish to entirely discard people who are heavy in one major view or the other. Fact is, I have been heavy on Revelation for a good thirty years now. I think about it every single day. And, it can be torturous to be unwilling to simply 'give up' and accept one interpretation - new or old - over others. It is even worse to not do one's homework, and simply believe whatever one is told, like the cults do.

What we can believe what we are told is the Word, the Message of Christ. But, on prophecy, even the prophets themselves did not know what it meant, and we are warned of that when attempting to interpret it.

Here is what "I do not know", if you wish to counter me, feel free to simply paraphrase verses, but I do ask you rely on honest reasoning with scales and weights that are as unbiased as possible:

What I know:

-> There is plenty in Revelation for believers to take hold of. Without having to settle on this or that viewpoint. This can be very difficult to do.
-> Revelation predicts disaster for the spiritual prince and princes of this world, so you can be sure that it is something that very well may not be discerned by even them.
-> Heaven is much higher then earth, 'my ways are not your ways, as the heavens are higher then earth, so are my ways higher then man's ways'. Early on, however, we do see major celestial beings ignorant of prophetic interpretation, but coming to be informed. We also can consider that 'even angels long to look into these matters' can continue to be the case that even angels have to see how things unfold on earth. Though, at certain junctures in Revelation they do seem to have a firm grasp of what is going on, which earth is blind to.
-> Even believers, the Chosen, can be misled. There are limits to how far misled they can be, but they can be misled. In terms of prophetic interpretation, we are not given any guarantees there. There can definitely be significant errors in the major doctrines. Or ones that are well off the road.

-> A lot of the material of the major eschatological doctrines do reek of the flesh, at best. I do not mean 'the big picture' presented, necessarily, but it is typically in the all important details where they tend to fall apart.

-> Heaven comes to earth. Jesus said this, this is clearly stated in Revelation. One of the bigger details that tend to derail popular, traditional, major eschatological doctrines for me. That is a real big, obvious hole in many of these systems, though, on the surface, it tends to really be stuck in the details -- but because it is there and a pillar of it, it has me lose confidence in the entire viewpoint.

-> The Chosen, who are not asleep, are on earth. They are also of Heaven and in Heaven, but they are on earth, as well.

-> There is specific sequential ordering in the Seals, the Woes, the Trumpets, the two resurrections. In Revelation. On the first and second resurrection, I mostly do lean strongly lean towards these being sequential and the first being at the start of the Millennium. But, I have not yet entirely ruled out the possibility that the Millennium and the resurrections being something beyond our current understanding.



What I do not know:



-> How long are the time periods in Revelation. How long is the time period, overall, from the time of Jesus opening the seals to the start of the Millennium. I am certainly aware of many of the popular interpretations here, but remain unconvinced. As deeply encoded or metaphoric as Revelation is - for instance - and the apocalyptic sayings of Jesus, we can not even assume three and a half years is literally three and a half years.
-> What has passed and what is yet to come. I had been pretty comfortable with much of what happened before Revelation 11 (the two witnesses) as being possibly something which had come to pass already and we may just not know it on earth. In the 'not so distant' past, I have come to conclude even Revelation 11 could have already come to past, and earth simply not know of it. I do here mean "earth" including the Chosen. Three and a half years was how long the ministry of Christ Jesus was, so we might expect that there is a firm "three and a half year" period in there. But, we might also be able to see that as a metaphoric period.
-> Who are the "two witnesses". There was an excellent thread on this, which I needed, a number of months ago. The poster's conclusion - and my own - was that "nobody knows". This certainly makes sense, as it is these two who the prophet Zechariah seemed as if to surprise "Heaven", with the response, "You do not know who these two are?" That 'the world celebrates and give each other presents in celebration of their death' does not mean anything when you consider that they do this for Christmas. Some could take Christmas that way, certainly, many do. Perhaps this speaks of something else, and the world simply sees them as someone they were not.

-> Details on the first and second Resurrection. I lean towards both being very literal resurrections. The first seems most likely to also include 'those who are still living with us'. This is not a viewpoint I have ever had anyone else seriously explore with me on earth.

-> What 'where the carrions or eagles fly, there is where the body is' really means in terms of the return of Jesus. Little statements like this completely rip apart earthly theories. It, like other such details remain deeply mysterious.

-> What the symbolism of Zechariah's Joshua and Zerubabbel mean. Joshua was the High Priest of Israel returning from the Babylonian captivity, and Zerubabbel was the King. Yes, we can point to Jesus in this, but we can do that with everything. Zechariah gets specific here. And Moses is put into the place as Joshua here, via Jude and Peter.
-> When a literal mass transfiguration happens. Jesus hid his spiritual body, but showed it during the transfiguration. We have a good idea of what that sort of body looks like from Scripture. But, it well may be that this change happens without the physical form being discarded, at first.
-> Who the child is in Revelation 12. Satan has been all over this verse. The world states that Revelation 12 "happened long ago" and even try and claim it is speaking of the Garden.

-> Who the rider on the horse is, and who the horse is.
-> How long the Millennium will be, and what it will be like. Further, if it is past - I do strongly doubt this, but can not entirely rule it out, yet - or if it is yet to come. How far off. I do lean towards it being "soon".

-> How the initial holding of Satan as "the beast" - he is there identified as Satan, who is the Destroyer - is related to the holding of Satan in the Abyss during the Millennium. Or, why both before and after the Millennium you see the very same thing happen: Satan being in the Abyss and released, and then coming to attack the Body of Christ. One possibility has been stated on this forum before that 'maybe the two are the same thing', though this seems to throw everything out of order and unnecessary. But, this seems to break the sequential pace of Revelation, and "God is a God of order, not chaos", so that is really hard to fit anywhere unless the Millennium is just beyond our current understanding. Maybe even of time.

-> What the third woe is. What the first woe is. I already mentioned the second. I do not know what the trumpets are. I do not believe we are past the third woe, yet, as evil still is in rule of the world. While Satan has remained the prince of this world - somehow - though he was also said to be in the Abyss, does seem to indicate he and his angels had some manner of major revelation which enlightened them enough to torment the earth. He is the angel of darkness 'with no light in him', so he could be in the abyss, yet be symbolically released, and - at the same time - have access to Heaven, until just before the third woe and his final fall.


What I know I do not know remains more then all of this, but this is more then enough here.

Impossible to address all your questions in depth. If you haven't, study the book of Daniel when studying Revelation. Hours and hours of study. Will touch on a couple things you asked about.

The first resurrection:

1st Thessalonians 4

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

At His 2nd coming

All are in the grave (saved & unsaved). 1st Resurrection (saved in the grave, saved living at the time ). The unsaved dead remain in the grave. The unsaved living at the time are destroyed and lay dead upon the earth. The saved dead and saved living at the time are taken to heaven and this begins the 1,000 (referred to as the Millennium) year reign with Him in heaven.

This is what is meant by satan being bound or chained, he has nobody to tempt. All "earthlings" are dead.

During the millennium, the thousand-year period of which the twentieth chapter of Revelation speaks, Satan's influence over the earth will be restricted (all are dead), and Christ will reign with His saints

Rev. 20:1-4.

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent , who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended

So ... no .... the millennium has not happened yet. It begins at the return of our Lord and we do not know the day or time He will return.

 

[Dave Watchman]

If you feel that is you, then you probably should not respond, nor read further.

I always feel like i should not have responded AFTER i have posted. It's like poster's remorse or why did i say that? But if i talk like a know it all, it's because i'm trying to go fast and see what i can tap out in 60 minutes or less. Too many questions and so little time.

-> How long are the time periods in Revelation. How long is the time period, overall, from the time of Jesus opening the seals to the start of the Millennium. I am certainly aware of many of the popular interpretations here, but remain unconvinced. As deeply encoded or metaphoric as Revelation is - for instance - and the apocalyptic sayings of Jesus, we can not even assume three and a half years is literally three and a half years.

2480 to 2481 years.

1260 + 217 + 1335 + 1000

538<----------------->3019

From the time of the opening of the 1st seal, until the end of the millennium is 1221 years.

1798 to 3019.

There can be the translation of prophetic time a day for a year prior to 1994, but all of the prophetic time periods are literal.

There's no such thing as symbolic time.

-> What has passed and what is yet to come. I had been pretty comfortable with much of what happened before Revelation 11 (the two witnesses) as being possibly something which had come to pass already and we may just not know it on earth. In the 'not so distant' past, I have come to conclude even Revelation 11 could have already come to past, and earth simply not know of it. I do here mean "earth" including the Chosen. Three and a half years was how long the ministry of Christ Jesus was, so we might expect that there is a firm "three and a half year" period in there. But, we might also be able to see that as a metaphoric period.

Much has already come to pass and we simply do not know of it.

Revelation 12 to 14.5 is one vision. It contains the 1260 years of the Foxe Book days, until the completion of the 42 months of Revelation 13 which is the same as the 1260 days of Revelation 11. Revelation 12 is done. We are about half way through the 42 months of chapter 13. I can hear the composite beast blaspheme God and His dwelling place and those who live in heaven. That means the dragon is here too giving it his power and his throne and great authority.

-> Who are the "two witnesses". There was an excellent thread on this, which I needed, a number of months ago. The poster's conclusion - and my own - was that "nobody knows". This certainly makes sense, as it is these two who the prophet Zechariah seemed as if to surprise "Heaven", with the response, "You do not know who these two are?" That 'the world celebrates and give each other presents in celebration of their death' does not mean anything when you consider that they do this for Christmas. Some could take Christmas that way, certainly, many do. Perhaps this speaks of something else, and the world simply sees them as someone they were not.

The Bible and the Holy Spirit. Power was given to them on July 26, 2015, 30 days after the Abomination stood where it ought not to be. The judgement of the living began. If anyone tries to hurt them, that is how they are to be killed in the presence of the Holy angels. John is measuring the Temple now. Through his written Word in the Gospel. We are the inner court. The outer court are the gentiles, they are lost. They are excluded by John's measuring rod. John's writings in the Bible. And so are the other Bible writers measuring the temple. Who will measure up? And you will be my WITNESSES in Israel and in Judea and to the ends of the earth. They are witnessing through their Gospel of the kingdom message written in the Bible, distributed to the ends of the earth. And then the end will come.

-> Details on the first and second Resurrection. I lean towards both being very literal resurrections. The first seems most likely to also include 'those who are still living with us'. This is not a viewpoint I have ever had anyone else seriously explore with me on earth.

It should be a shocker. We shoot up to the stratosphere at mach 92. The sign of the Son of Man and all the tribes of the earth will mourn the sight of it. Some will shine like the stars of heaven forever and ever. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The first resurrection is just before the millennium, blessed and holy are those that are there. Near the first weekend of January. The fig tree will shed it's winter fruit when shaken by a mighty wind.

The second resurrection is at the end of the millennium. Depending on the length of the vials, around February 3019. The rest of the dead will walk across the broad plain of the earth in an ill fated attempt to attack us, the beloved city, but will meet their fate with the second death. The Bible SPEAKS of fire that will fall from heaven and burn them up. That is how they are doomed to be killed in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. From the mouth of the two witnesses. Fire comes from the Bible's mouth, like the sharp sword that comes from the white horse Rider's mouth.

-> What 'where the carrions or eagles fly, there is where the body is' really means in terms of the return of Jesus. Little statements like this completely rip apart earthly theories. It, like other such details remain deeply mysterious.

It's not a good thing.

"And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.​

-> What the symbolism of Zechariah's Joshua and Zerubabbel mean. Joshua was the High Priest of Israel returning from the Babylonian captivity, and Zerubabbel was the King. Yes, we can point to Jesus in this, but we can do that with everything. Zechariah gets specific here. And Moses is put into the place as Joshua here, via Jude and Peter.

With the exception of Daniel, my OT knowledge is weak. So i'll skip this one. The high priest Joshua, Jeshua, is involved with Zerubbabel, the king, laying the foundation of the second temple.

They were preparing to build a temple. It's happening again now but in a different way. Each person represents a brick of this temple.

“This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty.​

And ultimately it's the Lord that's doing it. He's not going to trust fallible man to take the Gospel of the kingdom to every nation and then the end will come. Jesus started it by restoring the sanctuary to it's rightful state, the judgement of the dead. And now gives power to the two witnesses for the judgement of the living in real time.

-> When a literal mass transfiguration happens. Jesus hid his spiritual body, but showed it during the transfiguration. We have a good idea of what that sort of body looks like from Scripture. But, it well may be that this change happens without the physical form being discarded, at first.

I'm sure we won't be disappointed. Jesus walked around and ate and drank and nobody could tell any different. Except He could disappear and reappear. He said that He wouldn't drink of the fruit of the vine until He drank it new with us in His Father's kingdom. I'm sure we'll be able to eat and drink and ride a horse and pet a cat. And then change into a ball of light and shoot in swift flight through the heavens like Gabriel did. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has entered into the mind of man the things that God has prepared for those that love Him.

-> Who the child is in Revelation 12. Satan has been all over this verse. The world states that Revelation 12 "happened long ago" and even try and claim it is speaking of the Garden.

Necessity was the mother of invention. God's fallen people, the woman, gave birth to the Son of Man. If there were no congregation in need of a savior, there would not BE a woman to give birth to the Man child.

The dragon chased that same "woman" during the middle ages. Ask Anna Charboniere and the Waldensians who are beneath the alter now.

Waldensians - Wikipedia

-> Who the rider on the horse is, and who the horse is.

Jesus.

The horse is the message that salvation comes through faith in Jesus only. It began it's ride in 1798 after the 1260 years of pay pal persecution came to it's end.

-> How long the Millennium will be, and what it will be like. Further, if it is past - I do strongly doubt this, but can not entirely rule it out, yet - or if it is yet to come. How far off. I do lean towards it being "soon".

1000 literal years.

There's no such thing as symbolic time.

I think it's going to be different. I think it's going to be serious. A lot of work still is to be done. The Pauline judgement begins when ALL the saints are there. Do you not know that you are to judge the world? And to judge the angels? We're probably going to have to review the lives of the lost to figure out how many stripes they receive. The crime victims should play a prominent role.

It depends on how long the vials take. I think we'll be in the air for them. My counter says we're speeding towards the "darkened" sun and a moon that will not give her light.

Partial Solar Eclipse Countdown

-> How the initial holding of Satan as "the beast" - he is there identified as Satan, who is the Destroyer - is related to the holding of Satan in the Abyss during the Millennium. Or, why both before and after the Millennium you see the very same thing happen: Satan being in the Abyss and released, and then coming to attack the Body of Christ. One possibility has been stated on this forum before that 'maybe the two are the same thing', though this seems to throw everything out of order and unnecessary. But, this seems to break the sequential pace of Revelation, and "God is a God of order, not chaos", so that is really hard to fit anywhere unless the Millennium is just beyond our current understanding. Maybe even of time.

The two are not the same thing.

The thing that we traditionally call the "second coming" will in reality be the second VISITATION. Think about this. Jesus told Caiaphas that he would see him next at the right hand of the Father coming on the clouds of heaven.

"And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”​

Every EYE would see Him.

Even those who pierced Him.

But every eye is NOT going to be open at the second coming. The eyes of the wicked are going to remain CLOSED until the sea gives up it's dead at the END of the thousand years. I'm afraid that what Jesus was telling Caiaphas was that he was going to be one of the rest of the dead men walking across the broad plain of the earth as we return with or in the Father's house with many rooms.

Jesus said His Father's House has many rooms. He is coming back HERE to take us THERE to where He IS now.

"And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.​

Satan will be allowed to appear in our realm when the abyss is unlocked just before the end of the age.

He once was visible, now is not visible, will become visible again and then go to his destruction.

He was cast down into the earth, into the abyss.

Soon the man of sin will be revealed when the abyss is unlocked.

Then at the end of the tribulation he will be thrown alive into the lake of fire where his body will be burned.

During the thousand years he will have no one to tempt as we will be in the Father's house with many rooms.

At the end of the 1000 years New Jerusalem lands on earth. The rest of the dead are then brought back to life and march across the broad plain of the earth. This is where: "Every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him.

The man of sin will have an army of wicked to influence again for one more time. A short season to motivate the "nations'.

-> What the third woe is. What the first woe is. I already mentioned the second. I do not know what the trumpets are. I do not believe we are past the third woe, yet, as evil still is in rule of the world. While Satan has remained the prince of this world - somehow - though he was also said to be in the Abyss, does seem to indicate he and his angels had some manner of major revelation which enlightened them enough to torment the earth. He is the angel of darkness 'with no light in him', so he could be in the abyss, yet be symbolically released, and - at the same time - have access to Heaven, until just before the third woe and his final fall.

Still working on this Dreamer.

Or i don't wan't to say.

Might be too close for comfortable comment.

Be silent before the Lord,
Before the Day.

What I know I do not know remains more then all of this, but this is more then enough here.

You can say that again.

What I do not know:

If i am right.

Time will be the teller.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

30 years ha?
It just goes to show that God has a way of revealing things to the masses in good timing and you asking these inquisitive questions is proof positive of this.

I fall in the same boat as most people, yet what has been imparted to me is in my lifelong visions before I even picked up on Revelation in my 40s.

'Prophecy is not subject to the interpretation of the prophets'... I think, after some sleep, I do not think "the Church" can be the two witnesses. That is not new. It fits in a sense, as the Church provides harvest, as the two olive trees do... this is how people get paid... but, as many possibilities as I am open to, the "exegesis" or drawing out the real meaning of the "two witnesses" just really does not fit.

The only way the Church could fit is if they were resurrected from the dead and people saw them and were terrified.

The Catholic church, I think, is the first group who argued that the Church are the two witnesses, and this was picked up by the pre-tribulationist rapturists. These are not terrible theories, but they are far easier to believe then believing two people are "anointed by God".

Not that I have ever heard anyone argue they are resurrected from the dead and seen by people, and terrified.

Some were resurrected from the dead in Israel - maybe elsewhere, we do not know - this is in the Gospels. But, that is way out of the sequential order. While the two witnesses do fit the ministry of Christ, so much can be metaphoric there in weirder ways then people suppose -- no one argues this.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Impossible to address all your questions in depth. If you haven't, study the book of Daniel when studying Revelation. Hours and hours of study. Will touch on a couple things you asked about.

The first resurrection:

1st Thessalonians 4

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

At His 2nd coming

All are in the grave (saved & unsaved). 1st Resurrection (saved in the grave, saved living at the time ). The unsaved dead remain in the grave. The unsaved living at the time are destroyed and lay dead upon the earth. The saved dead and saved living at the time are taken to heaven and this begins the 1,000 (referred to as the Millennium) year reign with Him in heaven.

This is what is meant by satan being bound or chained, he has nobody to tempt. All "earthlings" are dead.

During the millennium, the thousand-year period of which the twentieth chapter of Revelation speaks, Satan's influence over the earth will be restricted (all are dead), and Christ will reign with His saints

Rev. 20:1-4.

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent , who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended

So ... no .... the millennium has not happened yet. It begins at the return of our Lord and we do not know the day or time He will return.

Like I noted, I do not think so, either. Though, I have seen prophecy fulfilled in weird ways that people do not see on earth, just in Heaven.

This is why this sometimes comes up with me, and I need to completely rule it out.

In regards to Satan not being gone, we have to remember -- Satan came up out of the Abyss already, in the first woe. The Destroyer, "Apollyon", is Satan.

Looking back across the past two thousand years, Satan definitely has remained the Prince of this World. Jesus did not state otherwise. Jesus stated he was thrown out of the Kingdom of Heaven.

We certainly see the Church and the world appearing to have become united. Yet, in the City of God, written while this happened, we see near the end Augustine explaining the changes going on and how even he was uncomfortable with it on matters which Protestants became uncomfortable with it. Such as effectively removing the Priesthood from believers. We also see such things as Hitler trying to set up a Millennium, the Catholic Church murdering countless people in national drives for conquest and elsewhere, the Inquisition, and such things as the crusade against the Orthodox Church.

There have and are believers who are Catholic, but the system is certainly corrupt.

Likewise, we have seen the same symptoms with Protestant and Orthodox, though there are and have been believers there.

Some argue, 'yes but they were trying to save the world', however, if we look around, was any of that really necessary? And the errors of some of these systems are very blatant and remained such to this day.

 

[eleos1954]

Like I noted, I do not think so, either. Though, I have seen prophecy fulfilled in weird ways that people do not see on earth, just in Heaven.

This is why this sometimes comes up with me, and I need to completely rule it out.

In regards to Satan not being gone, we have to remember -- Satan came up out of the Abyss already, in the first woe. The Destroyer, "Apollyon", is Satan.

Looking back across the past two thousand years, Satan definitely has remained the Prince of this World. Jesus did not state otherwise. Jesus stated he was thrown out of the Kingdom of Heaven.

We certainly see the Church and the world appearing to have become united. Yet, in the City of God, written while this happened, we see near the end Augustine explaining the changes going on and how even he was uncomfortable with it on matters which Protestants became uncomfortable with it. Such as effectively removing the Priesthood from believers. We also see such things as Hitler trying to set up a Millennium, the Catholic Church murdering countless people in national drives for conquest and elsewhere, the Inquisition, and such things as the crusade against the Orthodox Church.

There have and are believers who are Catholic, but the system is certainly corrupt.

Likewise, we have seen the same symptoms with Protestant and Orthodox, though there are and have been believers there.

Some argue, 'yes but they were trying to save the world', however, if we look around, was any of that really necessary? And the errors of some of these systems are very blatant and remained such to this day.

"And the errors of some of these systems are very blatant and remained such to this day"

Yep and will remain so, actually will get worse, until He returns.

Difficult to watch prophesy unfold.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I always feel like i should not have responded AFTER i have posted. It's like poster's remorse or why did i say that? But if i talk like a know it all, it's because i'm trying to go fast and see what i can tap out in 60 minutes or less. Too many questions and so little time.


2480 to 2481 years.

1260 + 217 + 1335 + 1000

538<----------------->3019

From the time of the opening of the 1st seal, until the end of the millennium is 1221 years.

1798 to 3019.

There can be the translation of prophetic time a day for a year prior to 1994, but all of the prophetic time periods are literal.

There's no such thing as symbolic time.


Much has already come to pass and we simply do not know of it.

Revelation 12 to 14.5 is one vision. It contains the 1260 years of the Foxe Book days, until the completion of the 42 months of Revelation 13 which is the same as the 1260 days of Revelation 11. Revelation 12 is done. We are about half way through the 42 months of chapter 13. I can hear the composite beast blaspheme God and His dwelling place and those who live in heaven. That means the dragon is here too giving it his power and his throne and great authority.


The Bible and the Holy Spirit. Power was given to them on July 26, 2015, 30 days after the Abomination stood where it ought not to be. The judgement of the living began. If anyone tries to hurt them, that is how they are to be killed in the presence of the Holy angels. John is measuring the Temple now. Through his written Word in the Gospel. We are the inner court. The outer court are the gentiles, they are lost. They are excluded by John's measuring rod. John's writings in the Bible. And so are the other Bible writers measuring the temple. Who will measure up? And you will be my WITNESSES in Israel and in Judea and to the ends of the earth. They are witnessing through their Gospel of the kingdom message written in the Bible, distributed to the ends of the earth. And then the end will come.


It should be a shocker. We shoot up to the stratosphere at mach 92. The sign of the Son of Man and all the tribes of the earth will mourn the sight of it. Some will shine like the stars of heaven forever and ever. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The first resurrection is just before the millennium, blessed and holy are those that are there. Near the first weekend of January. The fig tree will shed it's winter fruit when shaken by a mighty wind.

The second resurrection is at the end of the millennium. Depending on the length of the vials, around February 3019. The rest of the dead will walk across the broad plain of the earth in an ill fated attempt to attack us, the beloved city, but will meet their fate with the second death. The Bible SPEAKS of fire that will fall from heaven and burn them up. That is how they are doomed to be killed in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. From the mouth of the two witnesses. Fire comes from the Bible's mouth, like the sharp sword that comes from the white horse Rider's mouth.


It's not a good thing.

"And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.​

With the exception of Daniel, my OT knowledge is weak. So i'll skip this one. The high priest Joshua, Jeshua, is involved with Zerubbabel, the king, laying the foundation of the second temple.

They were preparing to build a temple. It's happening again now but in a different way. Each person represents a brick of this temple.

“This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty.​

And ultimately it's the Lord that's doing it. He's not going to trust fallible man to take the Gospel of the kingdom to every nation and then the end will come. Jesus started it by restoring the sanctuary to it's rightful state, the judgement of the dead. And now gives power to the two witnesses for the judgement of the living in real time.


I'm sure we won't be disappointed. Jesus walked around and ate and drank and nobody could tell any different. Except He could disappear and reappear. He said that He wouldn't drink of the fruit of the vine until He drank it new with us in His Father's kingdom. I'm sure we'll be able to eat and drink and ride a horse and pet a cat. And then change into a ball of light and shoot in swift flight through the heavens like Gabriel did. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has entered into the mind of man the things that God has prepared for those that love Him.


Necessity was the mother of invention. God's fallen people, the woman, gave birth to the Son of Man. If there were no congregation in need of a savior, there would not BE a woman to give birth to the Man child.

The dragon chased that same "woman" during the middle ages. Ask Anna Charboniere and the Waldensians who are beneath the alter now.

Waldensians - Wikipedia

Jesus.

The horse is the message that salvation comes through faith in Jesus only. It began it's ride in 1798 after the 1260 years of pay pal persecution came to it's end.


1000 literal years.

There's no such thing as symbolic time.

I think it's going to be different. I think it's going to be serious. A lot of work still is to be done. The Pauline judgement begins when ALL the saints are there. Do you not know that you are to judge the world? And to judge the angels? We're probably going to have to review the lives of the lost to figure out how many stripes they receive. The crime victims should play a prominent role.

It depends on how long the vials take. I think we'll be in the air for them. My counter says we're speeding towards the "darkened" sun and a moon that will not give her light.

Partial Solar Eclipse Countdown


The two are not the same thing.

The thing that we traditionally call the "second coming" will in reality be the second VISITATION. Think about this. Jesus told Caiaphas that he would see him next at the right hand of the Father coming on the clouds of heaven.

"And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”​

Every EYE would see Him.

Even those who pierced Him.

But every eye is NOT going to be open at the second coming. The eyes of the wicked are going to remain CLOSED until the sea gives up it's dead at the END of the thousand years. I'm afraid that what Jesus was telling Caiaphas was that he was going to be one of the rest of the dead men walking across the broad plain of the earth as we return with or in the Father's house with many rooms.

Jesus said His Father's House has many rooms. He is coming back HERE to take us THERE to where He IS now.

"And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.​

Satan will be allowed to appear in our realm when the abyss is unlocked just before the end of the age.

He once was visible, now is not visible, will become visible again and then go to his destruction.

He was cast down into the earth, into the abyss.

Soon the man of sin will be revealed when the abyss is unlocked.

Then at the end of the tribulation he will be thrown alive into the lake of fire where his body will be burned.

During the thousand years he will have no one to tempt as we will be in the Father's house with many rooms.

At the end of the 1000 years New Jerusalem lands on earth. The rest of the dead are then brought back to life and march across the broad plain of the earth. This is where: "Every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him.

The man of sin will have an army of wicked to influence again for one more time. A short season to motivate the "nations'.


Still working on this Dreamer.

Or i don't wan't to say.

Might be too close for comfortable comment.

Be silent before the Lord,
Before the Day.


You can say that again.

What I do not know:

If i am right.

Time will be the teller.

Peaceful Sabbath.

I tend to see us also as shortly before the Millennium...

As for there 'is no such thing as symbolic time', I am not so sure about that. That, certainly, is the first answer one comes to. But, for instance, with the two witnesses, we see this pattern - and it repeats - of the time of the ministry of God. There can be such a thing as symbolic time, as the "weeks" were not literal weeks, as in a literal seven days.

Stating there could be gaps, or three and a half years may refer to the ministry of Christ, is also something that *may* not be able to be entirely ruled out.

You state, for instance, as many do, that the events of Revelation 12 happened "long ago", which certainly would be out of order of the *seemingly* otherwise very sequential nature of Revelation. I do not think that is entirely uncalled for and felt it was 'the most likely suspect' in the past...

But, that is just the much, much easier to believe possibility, as well.

Satan was driven out of the Church, at the murder of Jesus Christ -- put in that term here, as this is exactly how and why Satan was driven out. His realm is darkness, and we can not imagine the abyss in the slightest without considering it pure darkness. "Satan has no truth in him" -- truth is light.

I do think Satan is "the Destroyer", that is what he is all about, though he is the prince of this world, that is exactly what this world does. When Jesus overpowered him in the wilderness, Satan backed off, and Jesus was 'able to take from him what is his', which Jesus spoke of in healing people who had varieties of destruction on them such as serious illnesses, even death.

We saw the term "the Destroyer" once before, as the one who was sent to kill the firstborn of Egypt. Satan is the one who has the power of death (of the body, only).

It seems strange, certainly, that he could have been in the abyss all these years, but we certainly see an abysmal past in history -- by anyone's account.

But, there have been believers, too.

Speaking of symbolic time, I have to go. My "one minute" to my youngest here was not exact, as we often use time in such language.

Certainly, there is some manner of timing, but how do we really know for sure, when even the angels, and even the Son does not know?

I do believe the wicked powers of this world do figure out some matters at some juncture, likely this happens from revelations from God on earth. Which effectively releases them from the Abyss.

And would be why they are then in a war with Michael and his angels. Not long after the death and resurrection of the two witnesses.

As for the rider on the horse, it does not say it is Jesus, when it could have been. Jesus is the one who is in all the saints and elect angels. So, it can be Jesus but also someone or something else.

Moses figures into Joshua, in Zechariah, and Joshua figures into the happens of the end, along with Zerubabbel. Joshua is the high priest returning from Babylon, and Zerubabbal is the king. Jesus said that he was not the accuser of the sons of Satan, but Moses is. However, that does not mean Moses is the rider on the horse.

The word "moses" does mean something like "branch", which also figures into those key verses of Zechariah, however.

And Moses is brought up as the song of the survivors. All believers are tied into Moses because of the 'spiritual bond created through the water and the cloud', and for the believers before him, because of the Revelation from Michael Moses imparted in the first books of the Bible.

Jesus noted "Elijah", whom the three saw on the mount of transfiguration just beforehand was "John the Baptist" -- and that does not figure into many theories.

So, who knows how these matters might actually transpire? People have been working with material from earth, despite being of the Kingdom. The normalities of Heaven are far stranger.

 

[ToServe]

The only way the Church could fit is if they were resurrected from the dead and people saw them and were terrified.

It specifically says after 3.5 days they were raised. Maybe 3.5 is pointing to the remaining half of Daniel's 70th week.

They are preaching to the Gentiles, yet they are counted as being martyred where our Lord was crucified. This suggests a continuity of the preaching of the Gospel from the founding Apostolic Jewish Church and her initial preaching to the Jewish house under Christ's ministry when he had sent them out in twos. Why twos?

The NT Temple is spoken of as being an outer court for preaching to the Gentile nations. Yet we see the inner court is accounted for as it is measured. In another place we have New Jerusalem being without a Temple, as the Lord is said to be its Temple.

The redeemed would be measured and counted to be with the Temple Jesus Christ. Does this point to the 144,000 OT Jews under Christ's ministry being the firstfruits to be raised as in the resurrection accouny of Matthew 27:52-53?

So one poster mentioned two resurrections. Could there be one at the start immediately after Christ's resurrection as the firstfruits as Paul gave us the order of the resurrection where Christ is the forerunner, then the firstfruits (144,000 Rev 14) and then those that belong to him towards the gleaning of the harvest.

If the second woe ushered in the NT Church's resurrection then the 1st woe must have immediately followed the resurrection of Jesus after there was an earthquake to usher in the OT 144,000.

Figurative language is pointing to two resurrection woes before the third woe which is the 7th trumpet sounded in declaring time is up, the end.

These are not terrible theories, but they are far easier to believe then believing two people are "anointed by God".

Most people think that it is two people, but two people doing what and for such a short time?

If the anointed two stand before God and continually minister by pouring out the golden oil of Zechariah 4, then how could two people be accounted with the responsibility of the gospel they are preaching for the past 1988 years?

Not that I have ever heard anyone argue they are resurrected from the dead and seen by people, and terrified.

Because the 2nd woe has yet to pass, whereas the 1st woe back in the 1st century does as documented Matthew 27:52-53.

It follows that the two olive trees must have continuity with preaching the gospel to the Gentile world within the symbolic 3.5 day ministry (42 months / 1260 days of Zechariah 4).

While the two witnesses do fit the ministry of Christ, so much can be metaphoric there in weirder ways then people suppose -- no one argues this

Yes. But two in it self symbolizes the witness of two binding in heaven. These two must be both Jews and Gentiles ministering the Gospel to the Gentile world at large and pouring out the golden oil through the 7 candlestick menorah of God mentioned also in Zechariah 4 as the 7 lamps. The 7 eyes 7 spirits that go out in the world is suggesting continuity. Two people in a short time has no continuity or purpose in the greater scheme of things that follows the 1st woe.

If we look at Rev 14 we note the 144,000 firstfruits are sealed first according to Rev 7 then the gospel goes out to the many Gentile nations abroad. Continuity from the 1st woe to the 2nd and the 3rd as your opening post asked suggests that a gap in ministry cannot be warrented to two individuals who are disjointed from the 1st woe earthquake of Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection of the firstfruits of the harvest.

Three woes to me appear from understanding your post to be as follows

Christ raised as the forerunner to the resurrection.

1st Earthquake Woe

The Firstfruits of Rev7 and Rev14 are raised as those who are present with the Temple of New Jerusalem who is Jesus and are measured because they are redeemed and accounted for, meaning they are sealed through the 1st woe resurrection (Rev 7).

The Church ministry to the Gentile nations (Gentiles come to Full) under NT and within outer unmeasured court without Temple ends and then the Church is martyred and raised 3.5 days after her commission.

The 2nd Earthquake Woe

The door of Grace is closed and the world is judged according to Rev5 request of those once under the altar of God.

The 1335 day marker of the translating of the remnant Elect at Christ's brilliant coming is signalled by the 3rd Woe the 7th Trumpet in declaring time is up, the End as Jesus would say.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

It specifically says after 3.5 days they were raised. Maybe 3.5 is pointing to the remaining half of Daniel's 70th week.

They are preaching to the Gentiles, yet they are counted as being martyred where our Lord was crucified. This suggests a continuity of the preaching of the Gospel from the founding Apostolic Jewish Church and her initial preaching to the Jewish house under Christ's ministry when he had sent them out in twos. Why twos?

The NT Temple is spoken of as being an outer court for preaching to the Gentile nations. Yet we see the inner court is accounted for as it is measured. In another place we have New Jerusalem being without a Temple, as the Lord is said to be its Temple.

The redeemed would be measured and counted to be with the Temple Jesus Christ. Does this point to the 144,000 OT Jews under Christ's ministry being the firstfruits to be raised as in the resurrection accouny of Matthew 27:52-53?

So one poster mentioned two resurrections. Could there be one at the start immediately after Christ's resurrection as the firstfruits as Paul gave us the order of the resurrection where Christ is the forerunner, then the firstfruits (144,000 Rev 14) and then those that belong to him towards the gleaning of the harvest.

If the second woe ushered in the NT Church's resurrection then the 1st woe must have immediately followed the resurrection of Jesus after there was an earthquake to usher in the OT 144,000.

Figurative language is pointing to two resurrection woes before the third woe which is the 7th trumpet sounded in declaring time is up, the end.



Most people think that it is two people, but two people doing what and for such a short time?

If the anointed two stand before God and continually minister by pouring out the golden oil of Zechariah 4, then how could two people be accounted with the responsibility of the gospel they are preaching for the past 1988 years?

I am not entirely sure if "most people" believe it is two people, as the Catholic church has it is the church, as does pre-tribbers...

There is nothing that says anything about 1988 years in Revelation 12.

Did you just turn 40?

 

[ToServe]

I am not entirely sure if "most people" believe it is two people, as the Catholic church has it is the church, as does pre-tribbers...

There is nothing that says anything about 1988 years in Revelation 12.

Did you just turn 40?

Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church and others believe it to be two people.

Please tell me who believes it to be the Church and if you can show me their web site for me to read up on it.

No, I am older.

So you said that you struggled with Revelation in particular for 30 years.

I have only looked at revelation when I had the vision of Jesus blowing the trumpet at the age of 18 and then a relative pointed out to me that it is in scripture that's all. I also saw New Jerusalem in Heaven partition across the northern and southern hemipheres.

I saw two white balls circling around each other before they collided and the Big Flash. What us this called in scientific terms when two stars/systems collide?

Neutron star collision possibly.

I saw and believed and believe to this very day as something I know for certain.

 

[JackRT]

I do not engage in any sort of rapture/tribulation debate because I believe it to be intellectually, emotionally and spiritually unhealthy to live your life in constant expectation of the "end times". It is far better to live your life in such a way as to make this a better world, not just for today but into the far distant future.

 

[BABerean2]

So ... no .... the millennium has not happened yet. It begins at the return of our Lord and we do not know the day or time He will return.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


The verse above proves that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

.

 

[eleos1954]

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


The verse above proves that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

.

The verse above proves that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

You are correct Revelation is not in chronological order.

I do not watch videos, sorry, uses too much of my internet data, so can't speak to that, whatever it is.

God Bless.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I always feel like i should not have responded AFTER i have posted. It's like poster's remorse or why did i say that? But if i talk like a know it all, it's because i'm trying to go fast and see what i can tap out in 60 minutes or less. Too many questions and so little time.


2480 to 2481 years.

1260 + 217 + 1335 + 1000

538<----------------->3019

From the time of the opening of the 1st seal, until the end of the millennium is 1221 years.

1798 to 3019.

There can be the translation of prophetic time a day for a year prior to 1994, but all of the prophetic time periods are literal.

There's no such thing as symbolic time.


Much has already come to pass and we simply do not know of it.

Revelation 12 to 14.5 is one vision. It contains the 1260 years of the Foxe Book days, until the completion of the 42 months of Revelation 13 which is the same as the 1260 days of Revelation 11. Revelation 12 is done. We are about half way through the 42 months of chapter 13. I can hear the composite beast blaspheme God and His dwelling place and those who live in heaven. That means the dragon is here too giving it his power and his throne and great authority.


The Bible and the Holy Spirit. Power was given to them on July 26, 2015, 30 days after the Abomination stood where it ought not to be. The judgement of the living began. If anyone tries to hurt them, that is how they are to be killed in the presence of the Holy angels. John is measuring the Temple now. Through his written Word in the Gospel. We are the inner court. The outer court are the gentiles, they are lost. They are excluded by John's measuring rod. John's writings in the Bible. And so are the other Bible writers measuring the temple. Who will measure up? And you will be my WITNESSES in Israel and in Judea and to the ends of the earth. They are witnessing through their Gospel of the kingdom message written in the Bible, distributed to the ends of the earth. And then the end will come.


It should be a shocker. We shoot up to the stratosphere at mach 92. The sign of the Son of Man and all the tribes of the earth will mourn the sight of it. Some will shine like the stars of heaven forever and ever. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The first resurrection is just before the millennium, blessed and holy are those that are there. Near the first weekend of January. The fig tree will shed it's winter fruit when shaken by a mighty wind.

The second resurrection is at the end of the millennium. Depending on the length of the vials, around February 3019. The rest of the dead will walk across the broad plain of the earth in an ill fated attempt to attack us, the beloved city, but will meet their fate with the second death. The Bible SPEAKS of fire that will fall from heaven and burn them up. That is how they are doomed to be killed in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. From the mouth of the two witnesses. Fire comes from the Bible's mouth, like the sharp sword that comes from the white horse Rider's mouth.


It's not a good thing.

"And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.​

With the exception of Daniel, my OT knowledge is weak. So i'll skip this one. The high priest Joshua, Jeshua, is involved with Zerubbabel, the king, laying the foundation of the second temple.

They were preparing to build a temple. It's happening again now but in a different way. Each person represents a brick of this temple.

“This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty.​

And ultimately it's the Lord that's doing it. He's not going to trust fallible man to take the Gospel of the kingdom to every nation and then the end will come. Jesus started it by restoring the sanctuary to it's rightful state, the judgement of the dead. And now gives power to the two witnesses for the judgement of the living in real time.


I'm sure we won't be disappointed. Jesus walked around and ate and drank and nobody could tell any different. Except He could disappear and reappear. He said that He wouldn't drink of the fruit of the vine until He drank it new with us in His Father's kingdom. I'm sure we'll be able to eat and drink and ride a horse and pet a cat. And then change into a ball of light and shoot in swift flight through the heavens like Gabriel did. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has entered into the mind of man the things that God has prepared for those that love Him.


Necessity was the mother of invention. God's fallen people, the woman, gave birth to the Son of Man. If there were no congregation in need of a savior, there would not BE a woman to give birth to the Man child.

The dragon chased that same "woman" during the middle ages. Ask Anna Charboniere and the Waldensians who are beneath the alter now.

Waldensians - Wikipedia

Jesus.

The horse is the message that salvation comes through faith in Jesus only. It began it's ride in 1798 after the 1260 years of pay pal persecution came to it's end.


1000 literal years.

There's no such thing as symbolic time.

I think it's going to be different. I think it's going to be serious. A lot of work still is to be done. The Pauline judgement begins when ALL the saints are there. Do you not know that you are to judge the world? And to judge the angels? We're probably going to have to review the lives of the lost to figure out how many stripes they receive. The crime victims should play a prominent role.

It depends on how long the vials take. I think we'll be in the air for them. My counter says we're speeding towards the "darkened" sun and a moon that will not give her light.

Partial Solar Eclipse Countdown


The two are not the same thing.

The thing that we traditionally call the "second coming" will in reality be the second VISITATION. Think about this. Jesus told Caiaphas that he would see him next at the right hand of the Father coming on the clouds of heaven.

"And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”​

Every EYE would see Him.

Even those who pierced Him.

But every eye is NOT going to be open at the second coming. The eyes of the wicked are going to remain CLOSED until the sea gives up it's dead at the END of the thousand years. I'm afraid that what Jesus was telling Caiaphas was that he was going to be one of the rest of the dead men walking across the broad plain of the earth as we return with or in the Father's house with many rooms.

Jesus said His Father's House has many rooms. He is coming back HERE to take us THERE to where He IS now.

"And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.​

Satan will be allowed to appear in our realm when the abyss is unlocked just before the end of the age.

He once was visible, now is not visible, will become visible again and then go to his destruction.

He was cast down into the earth, into the abyss.

Soon the man of sin will be revealed when the abyss is unlocked.

Then at the end of the tribulation he will be thrown alive into the lake of fire where his body will be burned.

During the thousand years he will have no one to tempt as we will be in the Father's house with many rooms.

At the end of the 1000 years New Jerusalem lands on earth. The rest of the dead are then brought back to life and march across the broad plain of the earth. This is where: "Every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him.

The man of sin will have an army of wicked to influence again for one more time. A short season to motivate the "nations'.


Still working on this Dreamer.

Or i don't wan't to say.

Might be too close for comfortable comment.

Be silent before the Lord,
Before the Day.


You can say that again.

What I do not know:

If i am right.

Time will be the teller.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Anyway, thanks, apologies did not have the time to get to the rest of that, but will address some of it now.

You did go the extra mile in your response, being relatively lengthy, and open. And, you are willing to admit that you do not know some things. This can be hard, because admitting this can open you up to people thinking you do not know what you are talking about. When they are used to believing what they are told without critical thinking (or testing having gone on).

However, I do have some issues with your responses, but will raise that in your response to my first response.

Edit: PostScript: I do not see that response, so will go ahead and add here:

Time is symbolic and considered as such, as I already argued in my response to you. That is, it can be. You take it the same way. I did not add that.

I think what stands out the most in your response, which I did not address was "the Bible and the Holy Spirit" as the two witnesses. I do not believe that is accurate. There are multiple problems with this. One being how specific seeming the timing of the ministry of the two witnesses is. Others being how specific it gets into the details of their death and resurrection.

Sure, "specific" does not mean it is not symbolic. This is one place where you very much take the passage of time as symbolic. As this is not three and a half years by any measure. Further, the Bible was initially written well over a thousand BC by estimates on the time of Moses.

That is, of course, the first part of it.

We do not know where some books come from. For instance, Job. It is remotely possible Job was discovered later, and written even earlier. Unlikely, but possible. There is nothing hinging on Job, nothing which states where he was, and he does not refer back clearly to any previous works.

All of the Bible can be considered prophecy, even if it is clear that it is filtered through the particular souls of those who wrote it. Such as Moses. (Who also was likely dictated everything, or otherwise given everything to write in the tent by Michael, the archangel, who was with him there.)

While it may be true that the Bible did not testify to a wider audience then it received before Jesus, we do have some evidence that it did certainly get read by people of other nations.

Further, Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected. But this is not true for either the Bible nor the Holy Spirit, the later of whom could never be killed, but did go with Jesus down to the grave.

So, how would you explain this?

Similar problem I found with another poster, who posited that the two witnesses are the Jews and the Gentiles.

These readings, which are not entirely strange, do require really, deeply taking matters as symbolic beyond what has ever been proven in prophecy well beyond what I was meaning by saying certain segments of time stated may be "symbolic".

(Something which I did mean how you mean it to be "symbolic", as in a year not being a year, with the two witnesses. Though, I more accurately see it as *perhaps* just referring to the time of the ministry of Christ. Or, *perhaps* having delays on days testified. Unlikely, but I can not yet entirely rule this out. Especially as many, such as your self, and the other forementioned poster, do not see those three and a half years as literally what is stated.)