Where Abortion meets the Death Penalty

All Englands Skies

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Lock them up, like we do in most civilised countries.


Yeah, aslong as you "throw away the key", not release them to walk the streets again and pose a risk.

Also in our "Civilised Counties", we never seem to be able to get rid of foreign terrorists on our own soil, as the lodge appeal after appeal, even when they lose their final appeal, they can appeal against it!!!!!

"Civilised" or is it going soft?
 
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Lilly Owl

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Maybe I missing something but are not death row should be abolished and it should be on TV mutually exclusive concepts? I don't personally see Jesus as someone who would support the death penalty and generally I don't (though I might make an exception for Irish terrorists but only in a heat of the action application of rule 5.56); I also find the rather atavistic comments of some on this forum - not this particular thread(re how after the return of Jesus as Lord there will be world wide extermination and capital punishment on a grand scale) slightly chilling - not in that its up to God to decide how He applies justice, but that human beings should rather revel in mass extermination of all those heathens)


I think perhaps your confusing my point with someone elses?
I did not say the death penalty should be done away with. In fact, I said execution of sentence should be broadcast pay-per-view, so as to send the message as to the ultimate penalty for the most egregious of offenses.

I personally don't think humans have to concern themselves with how God would execute sentence in such matters.
God exterminated the entire world by drowning everyone save for the family of Noah. The capital offense? Sinning!
And then he repopulated the planet through inbreeding sinners, as if that would somehow insure a less corrupt planet.

There are some people that don't deserve to live till they're in their 70's, for instance, while incarcerated. The expenses to house someone in State custody for say 45 years unto that old age, far exceeds the total expense for all the death row appeals that ultimately stand to achieve nothing but putting off the inevitable.

Some people are so evil death is the best thing for everyone concerned.
For instance, right now in Arizona there's a death penalty trial going on for a Mormon woman named Jodi Arias.
This woman allegedly, and she took pictures of her victim so the alleged part is a matter of legal terminology, when she in fact now admits she did this horrific crime. Prior to the State finding the camera she used to document her ex-boyfriends slaughter, she claimed two men broke into the apartment and did the deed. While she was 'lucky' enough to escape with her purse and phone. Which she never used to call 911 so as to save him from his attackers.
However, Ms.Arias excuse now is it was in self-defense because of abuse. This is a woman who stabbed her ex 29 times,slit his throat ear to ear and then shot him in the temple.
She dragged his body to the bathtub and left him there, while she fled. He was found days later in a state of decomposition by friends who were concerned he'd not been in contact.
She took pictures prior to murdering him, during, and after.
She staged the theft of the gun she used, by robbing her own grandparents of their firearm. And when she was finished the slaughter of this man, she took the knife and gun but threw the camera with the damning evidence on the sim card, into the washer with various other bits of laundry and ran it through a cycle.

She's now in a death penalty case. And if anyone asks to be put down, it's her.
This is a woman who would not stay away from Travis, her victim. Even when he broke up with her. She went so far as to crawl through a pet door so as to get into his home and would get in bed with him so that he awoke to a woman he thought he was done with.
He even asked her to move hundreds of miles away so that his sexual temptation would be abated, because she was not someone he wanted to continue in a serious relationship with nor would he ever marry her.

That is a woman that will serve no other purpose alive in a prison cell than to cost the State, and his family, grief for her continuing to be survived by tax dollars for no good reason except to grow old behind bars.
She'll never get out of prison! We should all hope.
 
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Paradoxum

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Yeah, aslong as you "throw away the key", not release them to walk the streets again and pose a risk.

Sure.

Also in our "Civilised Counties", we never seem to be able to get rid of foreign terrorists on our own soil, as the lodge appeal after appeal, even when they lose their final appeal, they can appeal against it!!!!!

"Civilised" or is it going soft?

Isn't it normally about not sending someone to be tortured? We shouldn't have anything to do with that absolute evil.
 
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All Englands Skies

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Isn't it normally about not sending someone to be tortured? We shouldn't have anything to do with that absolute evil.


Its normally an excuse, even if the torture thing is dealt with, something else comes up.

Half the time these people attempt to claim they'll be "tortured", may aswell mean that just dont want to go back to face the justice they deserve. Basically meaning the longer they're here, the longer they stay out of prison there.
 
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Illuminaughty

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One of the interesting things about the abolition of the death penalty in medieval Russia was the fact that it was predicated on Christian ideas of mercy. Now it seems conservative Christians are some of the biggest death penalty advocates around.
 
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All Englands Skies

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O
ne of the interesting things about the abolition of the death penalty in medieval Russia was the fact that it was predicated on Christian ideas of mercy. Now it seems conservative Christians are some if the biggest death penalty advocates around.

The Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire also tried to avoid the death penelty in most cases, they're way of thinking was making the criminal pose no more future threat, like if they didnt stop, to blind them, etc, seems monsterous now, but back then they though it was more moral than resorting to death penalty.

Also it only seems that a sub-group of American Christians are for the death penelty, in the rest of the western world, Churches are pretty much against it.
 
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Paradoxum

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Its normally an excuse, even if the torture thing is dealt with, something else comes up.

Half the time these people attempt to claim they'll be "tortured", may aswell mean that just dont want to go back to face the justice they deserve. Basically meaning the longer they're here, the longer they stay out of prison there.

Well if it isn't true then we can get rid of them. If it is true then we probably can't.

This can't even be that common. Seems a little thing for people to get their knickers in a twist over.
 
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All Englands Skies

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Well if it isn't true then we can get rid of them. If it is true then we probably can't.

This can't even be that common. Seems a little thing for people to get their knickers in a twist over.

Well why do people get there knickers in a twist if they get sent back, if there isnt that many, when they hate the UK and want to kill British people?

You can flip any statement over on itself.
 
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Paradoxum

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Well why do people get there knickers in a twist if they get sent back, if there isnt that many, when they hate the UK and want to kill British people?

You can flip any statement over on itself.

You can flip any statement over, but that doesn't make it a good point. :p

Torture is a serious thing. So is murder, but we don't go round deporting every potential murderer. We can't necessarily even do anything about most murderers because they actually try to commit a crime. If we can't lock someone up for wanting to kill British people, then we can't send them off to be tortured, which is much worse.
 
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All Englands Skies

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You can flip any statement over, but that doesn't make it a good point. :p

Torture is a serious thing. So is murder, but we don't go round deporting every potential murderer. We can't necessarily even do anything about most murderers because they actually try to commit a crime. If we can't lock someone up for wanting to kill British people, then we can't send them off to be tortured, which is much worse.


Its a serious thing to have criminals, who undermime and plot against us and some who are a threat to National security to be allowed to stay here, aswell.

Its also a serious thing when any foreigner who commits a crime can attempt to say he'll be "tortured" and they have no choice but let him remain here.
 
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Illuminaughty

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Two problems with torturing terror suspects:

1. Torture is inhumane to the victim and even causes problems for the person ordered to do the torturing. It just isn't healthy psychologically.

2. The terror suspect is just that- a SUSPECT. They haven't even been found guilty via a fair trial in most instances.
 
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Bethesda

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I think perhaps your confusing my point with someone elses?
And then he repopulated the planet through inbreeding sinners, as if that would somehow insure a less corrupt planet.

No the points were all in your original posts. Your point about God seemingly from your tone getting it wrong re repopulating the planet seems a bit odd - His plan surely. Personally, working in law enforcement, though at a visceral level its easy on occasions to think yes this or that person should be done away with, overall given incidence of miscarriages of justice I am against it (along with the moral problems it causes in those involved - I have extreme doubts about people who want to take part in the execution or whipping of other people) - I also disagree with the whole resource based argument - on that basis those who are seriously mentally ill etc should be done away with too etc and we all in Europe know where that ended up. As to televising executions - well given that the UK which was pretty bloody judicially abolished public ones in 1867, i think thats a pretty retrograde step to put it very mildly.
 
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SolomonVII

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Two problems with torturing terror suspects:

1. Torture is inhumane to the victim and even causes problems for the person ordered to do the torturing. It just isn't healthy psychologically.
That's right. It is dehumanizing on all accounts.
There is always a question of what constitutes torture too though.
Solitary confinement, or even jailing, for examples, have elements of inhumanity and dehumanization involved.

2. The terror suspect is just that- a SUSPECT. They haven't even been found guilty via a fair trial in most instances.
Torture in general is not a punishment for guilt, but a means for extracting information. "Enhanced interrogation techniques" is about getting information from people that are in a position to know things that may ultimately save lives.

Torture always dehumanizes and is always inhumane. It should never be legalized, and it must be continuously defined in order to determine at what point interrogation becomes torture.

At the same time, the ends sometimes indeed will justify the means, even if the means are illegal. What would a good person not do, for example, if there was a possibility that a nuclear attack against Los Angeles hangs in the balance? It would be cold comfort for that good person to be left with intact principles, and five million preventable deaths on account of holding to those principles.
Christians are presented with this dilemma every Easter of course. "Better the one die than the many" was the considered opinion of the religious authorities, and indeed there is catharsis in the mob coalescing around a murderous event. Christians fully understand how horrible that kind of cold blooded reasoning is when an innocent man is murdered as a result. Eventually too, the rage was not contained and the whole nation was upturned in an orgy of blood, death and destruction cirqua AD 70.

It is always the devils bargain when these kind of calculations are being made.
 
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