When will we be "taken up"?

[Rachel Rachel]

I was raised on pre-tribulation rapture teaching and I still listen to David Jeremiah on my way to work every morning. He taught on the book of Revelation a few months ago and restated the truth of the scripture 1 Thess. 5:9 - that God has not appointed believers to wrath.
I was taught that before the beginning of the 7 trumpets, Yeshua's bride will taken up to be with him in heaven enjoying the marriage feast.

But since becoming a "Messianic" and since I've been listening to Michael Rood, I've been taught that YHVH's wrath doesn't begin until the end of the 7th trump/beginning of the outpouring of the bowls, so those who are alive in those days will have to endure the horrors of the trumpets.

He says that when Yeshua begins to open the 7 seals, Satan becomes enraged and the tribulation of the 7 trumpets is his wrath upon the earth. So we must endure Satan's wrath but not God's wrath - the 7 bowls.

What do you think?

 

[visionary]

I would start with rapture, and ask... has God ever taken anyone away before the conflict that turns them into the gems He is looking for? We are to be refined seven times in the trials and tribulations. God's whole point of having us endure until the end is to be living proof that not only Yeshua can live perfectly, but we can also without sin.

 

[Ken Rank]

I was raised on pre-tribulation rapture teaching and I still listen to David Jeremiah on my way to work every morning. He taught on the book of Revelation a few months ago and restated the truth of the scripture 1 Thess. 5:9 - that God has not appointed believers to wrath.
I was taught that before the beginning of the 7 trumpets, Yeshua's bride will taken up to be with him in heaven enjoying the marriage feast.

But since becoming a "Messianic" and since I've been listening to Michael Rood, I've been taught that YHVH's wrath doesn't begin until the end of the 7th trump/beginning of the outpouring of the bowls, so those who are alive in those days will have to endure the horrors of the trumpets.

He says that when Yeshua begins to open the 7 seals, Satan becomes enraged and the tribulation of the 7 trumpets is his wrath upon the earth. So we must endure Satan's wrath but not God's wrath - the 7 bowls.

What do you think?

I am not a fan of Rood at all. That aside, my personal belief is that being "caught up in the clouds" is an idiom.... and I am not sure that there is much of a difference between what Paul was trying to explain and what we saw in the wilderness. There, Israel was caught up in the cloud, so to speak. The glory of the Lord was with them and when Yeshua returns, we'll be caught up in the glory of the Lord. The idea that we are raptured to heaven when the meek inherit the Earth is something the Jehovah's Witnesses probably have correct with their conclusion.

You know, the word for "rapture" is harpazo... and we see it used by Paul but it is also the same word used for the time Phillip was taken from the Eunuch and "transported" (so to speak) to the next town or so. His "rapture" was horizontal... and yet Christianity has ONLY a vertical mindset when it comes to this word. There appears to be a second exodus at the end of Isaiah 11 (and a few other places)... perhaps the "rapture" is the gathering of all of those in the nations to a central point where we (if we are alive) take part in this greater and second exodus?

Just some thoughts.

 

[royal priest]

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I think I'm going to face God through my own death way before the final day so I don't pay that much attention to the closing stages of the great tribulation and the eschatology itself.

My own end will come first.

 

[Ken Rank]

With Noach, he was not taken he was protected and when the water receded, Noach and his family were left behind. Lot was not taken he was protected and when all the dust settled he and his family were left behind. Yeshua likened the end to those two examples... so why do we want to be taken when the righteous were left behind?

 

[ewq1938]

Lot was not taken he was protected

Gen 19:16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

Lot was actually taken to safety, he and his family. The ones left behind were those that the fire rained down upon. Taken means to be accepted in the Greek, and left means to be forsaken.

taken
3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"



left
863

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute

"to send away"
"of a husband divorcing his wife"
"to expire"
"to disregard"
"neglect"
"keep no longer"
"to leave on dying"
"leave behind one"
"abandon, leave destitute"

That's the complete opposite as being "taken" and is very negative. Do you
want to be rejected at the return of Christ or do you want to be accepted?
Christ takes the first one from the field and the rest is "left" by him, and
are "kept no longer".






Who was TAKEN into the Ark?
Who was LEFT outside the Ark?
Who was TAKEN to a safe place to live?
Who was LEFT to die in an unsafe place?

Who was TAKEN out of Sodom?
Who was LEFT in Sodom?
Who was TAKEN to a safe place to live?
Who was LEFT to die in an unsafe place?

Why does TAKEN/paralambano¯ mean to accept as a companion and does NOT mean to reject and leave to die?
Why does LEFT/aphie¯mi means to reject and leave someone to die and does NOT mean to accept as a companion?

Why does TAKEN/paralambano¯ mean you survive?
Why does LEFT/aphie¯mi mean you do not survive?

 

[ewq1938]

I would start with rapture, and ask... has God ever taken anyone away before the conflict that turns them into the gems He is looking for?

Exactly! I also found a type of the taken and left in the OT and I thought you would find it interesting

Here we have a clear and accurate type of what the end brings for those taken and those left in the field when God's wrath comes.
Remember that Noah's flood came from God, and was a flood of Gods wrath against the wicked. Christs return will be
like that flood. Either we are like Noah's family and are taken into the ark and saved, or we are left outside of the ark and die.
Either we are like lot and his family and are TAKEN to safety or we are left behind in the city and die from the firery wrath.



Here is a foreshadow of the end times wrath of God complete with those that are TAKEN and those that are LEFT:

Exodus 9:14 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.
Exodus 9:15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.



God is going to pour his wrath upon the wicked



Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
Exodus 9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?
Exodus 9:18 Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now.



Here we have hail, and isnt that something we see happen when God rains down his wrath at the end?


Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


If you type "hail" in your computer bible search option, the first one is the exodus example and the last is the final hail. First the type is set, and it ends with the fulfillment of the types. Just thought that was worth mentioning.






Exodus 9:19 Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.



Gather
5756

05756 `uwz {ooz}

a primitive root; TWOT - 1578; v

AV - gather... 2, gather 1, retire 1; 4

1) (Hiphil) to take refuge, bring to refuge, seek refuge



"to take refuge" among other things. This word can easily be translated TAKE. This is the type of the one taken. Those not taken will suffer gods wrath which is also the lesson in Matthew.


Now check this out!



Exodus 9:19 Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.

"and shall not be brought home"


These are those NOT gathered from the field, NOT taken from the field.



Brought
622

0622 'acaph {aw-saf'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 140; v

AV - together 51, gather 86, assemble 15, rereward 5, misc 51; 200

1) to gather, receive, remove, gather in
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to gather, collect
1a2) to gather (an individual into company of others)
1a3) to bring up the rear
1a4) to gather and take away, remove, withdraw
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to assemble, be gathered
1b2) (pass of Qal 1a2)
1b2a) to be gathered to one's fathers
1b2b) to be brought in or into (association with others)
1b3) (pass of Qal 1a4)
1b3a) to be taken away, removed, perish
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to gather (harvest)
1c2) to take in, receive into
1c3) rearguard, rearward (subst)
1d) (Pual) to be gathered
1e) (Hithpael) to gather oneself or themselves

This is applied to the one gathered/taken from the field! the ones left in the field are not brought/gathered/taken


Compare that word's meaning to the greek meaning for "taken" in the verse we've been discussing

3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

they are nearly sister words in the two languages and that shouldn't be surprising as they speak of the same type of event, God's wrath and what happens to two types of people.








Exodus 9:20 He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:
Exodus 9:21 And he that regarded not the word of the LORD left his servants and his cattle in the field.



Those that "feared" the word of the Lord TOOK their animals into safety.
Those who did not regard God's word LEFT their animals in the field.




Exodus 9:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt.
Exodus 9:23 And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
Exodus 9:24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
Exodus 9:25 And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.




All left in the field when God's wrath comes shall be destroyed which is what Matthew 24:37-41 is talking about.
All that were taken out of the field were taken to safety, just as Lot was taken to safety.


Here is the hebrew word for LEFT in these verses

5800

05800 `azab {aw-zab'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 1594,1595; v

AV - forsake 129, leave 72, leave off 4, faileth 2, fortify 2, help 2,
committeth 1, destitute 1, refuseth 1, surely 1; 215

1) to leave, loose, forsake
1a) (Qal) to leave
1a1) to depart from, leave behind, leave, let alone
1a2) to leave, abandon, forsake, neglect, apostatise
1a3) to let loose, set free, let go, free
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be left to
1b2) to be forsaken
1c) (Pual) to be deserted
2) to restore, repair
2a) (Qal) to repair



Compare that to the greek word for the one LEFT in the field!
863

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute


same exact meaning! Is it not perfectly clear what happens to the one left in the field at the time of the "coming of the son of man"?

Remember, the ones that were TAKEN were spared God's wrath and the ones that were LEFT were the ones to suffer God's wrath. It is the exact same in the examples of Noah and lot and the second coming.

The ones TAKEN are symbolic of the ones Raptured/caught up/taken up to safety. The ones LEFT are symbolic of the unsaved who are not Raptured/caught up/taken up to safety.


This truly is an amazing type and fits so perfectly with the scriptures. God is the author and naturally the pieces would fit perfectly.
God is laying out types and examples so we may learn of this and not misunderstand who the one taken and the one left are.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I am not a fan of Rood at all. That aside, my personal belief is that being "caught up in the clouds" is an idiom.... and I am not sure that there is much of a difference between what Paul was trying to explain and what we saw in the wilderness. There, Israel was caught up in the cloud, so to speak. The glory of the Lord was with them and when Yeshua returns, we'll be caught up in the glory of the Lord. The idea that we are raptured to heaven when the meek inherit the Earth is something the Jehovah's Witnesses probably have correct with their conclusion.

You know, the word for "rapture" is harpazo... and we see it used by Paul but it is also the same word used for the time Phillip was taken from the Eunuch and "transported" (so to speak) to the next town or so. His "rapture" was horizontal... and yet Christianity has ONLY a vertical mindset when it comes to this word. There appears to be a second exodus at the end of Isaiah 11 (and a few other places)... perhaps the "rapture" is the gathering of all of those in the nations to a central point where we (if we are alive) take part in this greater and second exodus?

Just some thoughts.

I used to not be a fan of Rood, either and there are still things about him that rub me the wrong way - mostly his style or presentation. He's kinda harsh and in your face. But I started watching his YouTube series, The Chronological Gospels, and I've gotten a lot out of them.
However I believe that Paul is the second witness that Yeshua's people will be caught up to meet him in the air. The only question is when.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

With Noach, he was not taken he was protected and when the water receded, Noach and his family were left behind. Lot was not taken he was protected and when all the dust settled he and his family were left behind. Yeshua likened the end to those two examples... so why do we want to be taken when the righteous were left behind?

So how do you think we (Gentiles) will be protected? I know that many believe that Israelis will flee to Petra but what about believers around the rest of the world?
The only protection I can see would be if we were taken up and at the wedding supper.

 

[gadar perets]

I was raised on pre-tribulation rapture teaching and I still listen to David Jeremiah on my way to work every morning. He taught on the book of Revelation a few months ago and restated the truth of the scripture 1 Thess. 5:9 - that God has not appointed believers to wrath.
I was taught that before the beginning of the 7 trumpets, Yeshua's bride will taken up to be with him in heaven enjoying the marriage feast.

But since becoming a "Messianic" and since I've been listening to Michael Rood, I've been taught that YHVH's wrath doesn't begin until the end of the 7th trump/beginning of the outpouring of the bowls, so those who are alive in those days will have to endure the horrors of the trumpets.

He says that when Yeshua begins to open the 7 seals, Satan becomes enraged and the tribulation of the 7 trumpets is his wrath upon the earth. So we must endure Satan's wrath but not God's wrath - the 7 bowls.

What do you think?

We will not face YHWH's wrath, but we will face the Great Tribulation which is Satan's wrath against YHWH's people. The Great Tribulation precedes the heavenly signs of the 6th seal (Matthew 24:21, 29) and Day of YHWH (His wrath via the 7 trumpets and vials) follows those heavenly signs (Joel 2:30-31).

 

[Ken Rank]

Gen 19:16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

Lot was actually taken to safety, he and his family. The ones left behind were those that the fire rained down upon. Taken means to be accepted in the Greek, and left means to be forsaken.

taken
3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"



left
863

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute

"to send away"
"of a husband divorcing his wife"
"to expire"
"to disregard"
"neglect"
"keep no longer"
"to leave on dying"
"leave behind one"
"abandon, leave destitute"

That's the complete opposite as being "taken" and is very negative. Do you
want to be rejected at the return of Christ or do you want to be accepted?
Christ takes the first one from the field and the rest is "left" by him, and
are "kept no longer".






Who was TAKEN into the Ark?
Who was LEFT outside the Ark?
Who was TAKEN to a safe place to live?
Who was LEFT to die in an unsafe place?

Who was TAKEN out of Sodom?
Who was LEFT in Sodom?
Who was TAKEN to a safe place to live?
Who was LEFT to die in an unsafe place?

Why does TAKEN/paralambano¯ mean to accept as a companion and does NOT mean to reject and leave to die?
Why does LEFT/aphie¯mi means to reject and leave someone to die and does NOT mean to accept as a companion?

Why does TAKEN/paralambano¯ mean you survive?
Why does LEFT/aphie¯mi mean you do not survive?

Neither Lot nor Noach were taken from the Earth... they were simply protected. The disciples asked Yeshua, "Where were the ones taken, taken to?" (paraphrased) And he pointed to the scavenger birds eating the dead corpses and said, "there." (again, paraphrased) The ones "taken" all died... they ceased to exist. The ones left behind were the ones who lived. Christianity has had this, like many other things, backwards. The tares are taken FIRST and burned... then the wheat are gathered. Unless you are a tare, you are not taken first.

 

[Ken Rank]

So how do you think we (Gentiles) will be protected? I know that many believe that Israelis will flee to Petra but what about believers around the rest of the world?
The only protection I can see would be if we were taken up and at the wedding supper.

I don't see you as a gentile... I see us as PART OF Israel. Not the replacement like the church has concocted, but not less than the foreigners who came out of Egypt with Israel who were 1. told to be treated like native born 2. were to assimilate into the tribes they traveled with and 3. had the law given to them as well. Remember, the New Jerusalem doesn't have a 13th gate for gentiles, just 12 gates, one for each tribe.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I don't see you as a gentile... I see us as PART OF Israel. Not the replacement like the church has concocted, but not less than the foreigners who came out of Egypt with Israel who were 1. told to be treated like native born 2. were to assimilate into the tribes they traveled with and 3. had the law given to them as well. Remember, the New Jerusalem doesn't have a 13th gate for gentiles, just 12 gates, one for each tribe.

Oooooh..... I like that!

 

[ewq1938]

Neither Lot nor Noach were taken from the Earth...

No one said they were taken from the Earth. They were taken, and the others were left behind. They symbolize the "one taken" vs the ones that died as being the "one left".

they were simply protected. The disciples asked Yeshua, "Where were the ones taken, taken to?" (paraphrased) And he pointed to the scavenger birds eating the dead corpses and said, "there." (again, paraphrased) The ones "taken" all died... they ceased to exist.

No, they were taken to witness the ones not taken being killed.

The ones left behind were the ones who lived. Christianity has had this, like many other things, backwards.

Christianity that rejects the pre-trib rapture has it right.

The tares are taken FIRST and burned... then the wheat are gathered. Unless you are a tare, you are not taken first.

Yes but that is a different time frame and is unrelated to who is taken and left. You should study the Greek meanings of those words to better understand this topic.