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When will Jerusalem be devastated as in Daniel 9:2 Daniel 9:24?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Wills, Jul 30, 2003.

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  1. Wills

    Wills Member

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    The Millenial temple is referred to in Revelation 21:22

    There was no temple in the city of Jerusalem, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty

    and the Lamb.

    Pray, which millenial structure are you referring to? It says there is no structure

    as the temple.

    Could you please provide the scripture to explain what you mean by " the Holy of Holies in the mellennial temple that will stand in Jerusalem.?"
     
  2. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +66
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    This one will be a long one but please take the time to read it all at least twice so you can absorb all the info in it.

    Why should we believe it is a continual time line from Jesus' death to present day and into the future. Doesn't Daniel describe a break in the last week of his time line in his prophecies of the seventy weeks of years. Before we look at Daniel we should understand who is giving Daniel these prophecies. It is Jesus. As we have seen above only Jesus can open the scrolls and reveal the future. Daniel says the following in chapter 10

    16And behold, one in the likeness of the sons of men touched my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke. I said to him who stood before me, "O my lord, by reason of the vision pains have come upon me, and I retain no strength. 17How can my lord's servant talk with my lord? For now no strength remains in me, and no breath is left in me." 18Again one having the appearance of a man touched me and strengthened me. 19And he said, "O man greatly beloved, fear not, peace be with you; be strong and of good courage." And when he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, "Let my lord speak, for you have strengthened me."


    Did you catch it? Daniel is calling the messenger "My Lord" in verse 16,17 & 19 and in verse 19 the messenger even says Jesus' trade mark phrase "Peace be with you" This is clearly Jesus. Understanding this fact will help us understand Daniel, as Jesus tells us the future in plain language in Matthew 24. First, let’s not forget that Daniel 9: deals with Jerusalem and the Jewish transgressions that has resulted in Daniel's people's deportation. It is not a prophecy for the end times. We must keep in mind that Daniel has just read the prophet Jeremiah and wished to know the future of his HOLY CITY not the future of the world. The book of Daniel makes very clear distinctions between end time prophecy and other prophecy. Here are all the references to the end days in the book of Daniel

    Daniel 8:17, Daniel 8:19, Daniel11:27, Daniel 11:35, Daniel 11:40, Daniel 12:4 Daniel 12:9

    Notice that the term end of times or end days or time of the end is not used once in Chapter 9. Why is that? Baptist and Pentecostal Christians, to name just a few, believe that the final week is a prophecy for end times. Why, if it is a prophecy for end times, does Daniel not say so, Daniel and Jesus repeatedly say it about other end time prophecies (ie: chapters 8 and 11,12).

    It would seem that this prophecy does not deal with the end times. To say it does is to add your own meaning and understanding to Gods word. What about the abomination that causes desolation is it not in all four chapters of Daniel 8 - 9 - 11 - 12? Are they not the same Abomination? It would appear that they are the same abomination but a closer look reveals that they are not the same abominations.

    To understand this we need to find a common point with Jesus' prophecy of Matthew 24: So that we are not guessing, but are believing in what Jesus tells us.

    First we will look at the abomination in Daniel 8. Jesus tells Gabriel to explain the prophecy to Daniel, Daniel is told in very distinct language that this prophecy is for the end days "for it pertains to the appointed time of the end". This is clearly the abomination that causes desolation spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 2.4 We are even told in Daniel 8:25 that this last king will fight Jesus and be destroyed by God.

    We will now look at Daniel 11 verse 40 on. Daniel is given a starting point in this Prophecy and the prophecy runs in a continual time line through almost 2400 years of history. We will join at verse 40:

    "At the time of the end the king of the south shall attack him; but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through.

    Well as we can see this is the Time of the End. Notice in verse 32 is an abomination of desolation this is the abomination that would be that start of many abominations. That would lead to the end of the Prince.

    Now lets go back in time between verse 32 which I say is the Abomination of 168 BC. and the end times in verse 40.

    Well, should we not find mention of Jesus and the saints in there some where?


    [33] And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder, for some days. (Christians where the only ones burned the Romans did it so they could not be resurrected or so they thought).[34] When they fall, they shall receive a little help(Holy Spirit the helper). And many shall join themselves to them with flattery; (Jesus's first warning on the mount false teachers).[35] and some of those who are wise shall fall, (The Saints). to refine and to cleanse them and to make them white(Only the saints who have died in the name of Christ get white robes)., until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed.



    HERE IS THE TIE IN TO MATT 24:

    4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    Here Jesus talks about the fall of Judea and the Temple but he tells them that the end is not yet



    continued
     
  3. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +66
    Non-Denom
    Now on to Daniel 9:

    The most important thing to understand in Daniel 9: is what Daniel is asking for clarification on. Daniel, like every other Jew of the time, wanted to know if God was still going to fulfil his promise to David, that Jesus would be born of the Jews. This was the Jewish share of God's covenant with Abraham. Just as the northern Kingdom of Israel had a punishment time allotted, so here do the Jews, 490 yrs.

    24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy One.


    We are told that it will take 490 yrs. To finish the sin of the Jews
    "upon thy people"
    "to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity". And to seal up and finish this prophecy. It looks like Jesus knew that people would try and stretch this prophecy to over 2500yrs. So he clearly states this prophecy ends in 490yrs.

    We must remember he is writing in regards to Jeremiah's prophecy of seventy years, the chapter starts

    2: In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolation of Jerusalem.


    490 years to make an end of their sins to fulfil God's covenant with Abraham, and to reconcile them to God by Jesus "and to anoint the most Holy One. "This prophecy clearly states that the 490 years is a further punishment period of the Jews. In this prophecy at the end of 490 years Jesus arrives and this part of the covenant with Abraham is fulfilled. This abomination in these verses can not be the abomination that Jesus speaks of happening in the end times because this abomination happens during the 490 years., before Jesus arrives. Jesus comes at the end of the 490 years.

    Here is the verse from the King James.


    25: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



    Now the Revised Standard


    25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."



    It is clear these two translations are very different. While the King James Version translated from the Vulgate clearly implies this prince is Jesus by putting the first seven weeks and 62 weeks together, the Revised says it is just a Anointed One and separates the first seven weeks and the 62 weeks.

    More over the Revised version says the anointed one will be cut off and have nothing, that is the Septuagint translation, the Hebrew texts translate, "cut off and have no one left". this certainly was not Jesus.
    So which translation is correct. As I said at the start we will use the Septuagint and Hebrew versions, as they predate the Catholics who changed many verses in the Vulgate as they have admitted, "to make their meaning clearer"

    First we must look at a very large discrepancy in these dates. Jeremiah tells us the Jews would be held captive 70 years.

    Historians say Jerusalem fell first in 597BC then in 586 BC the Temple was destroyed. Well quick math will show you that 597 or 586 minus 70 years does not leave one at or 538 BC which is the historical date of Cyrus's edict to Rebuild Jerusalem.

    In 608 BC Babylon invades Judea and extracts a tribute from Jerusalem. In the first three months of Jehoiachin reign in 598BC. he stops paying tribute to Babylon. This infuriates Nebuchadnezzars and he takes the Jehoiachin his Sons and all the Nobles of Judea. Captive to Babylon and carries off all the Treasures of the temple
    (2Kings24:10-15). 608 - 70 years captivity leaves us at 538BC. This would seem to agree with the Biblical account.

    Early in Artaxerxes reign 7yr. 5th month Ezra arrives in Jerusalem sometime about 458BC not 398BC as Catholic history teaches

    So first thing that is noticed is the 490 years. Is broken up into 49 years. 434 years. And 7 years. And that the end will result in Jesus' arrival and the destruction of Jerusalem. It also says that war will continue until the end of Jerusalem. It clearly says, that there will be more than one desolation of the Temple "Desolations are decreed"


    It says an anointed one will come after 49 years. Who or what is an anointed one? All through Leviticus in at least six places by a quick count Priest are called anointed ones. In Kings, Saul is said to have been anointed by God, this is also true of other Kings including King Cyrus, Who Isaiah says is God's Anointed, and who Ezra clearly states fulfils Jeremiah's prophecy in the Bible. So it would appear that there are a few possible solutions it could be a Priest or a King or Cyrus.

    It is important to understand that the rebuilt Judea had Priest Kings, not separate High Priest and Separate Kings as before the deportation. Either way this is clearly the coming of a ruler 49 years after the word goes forth to rebuild and restore Jerusalem 538BC that puts us at 489BC

    Then for 434 years Jerusalem will be built but in a troubled time. After 434 years of rule, this ruling line, will be cut of and have nothing (no heir to the seat of authority). The total number of years since the order to rebuild is now 483 years. If you put Jesus as the Anointed One that is cut off then he was murdered 483 years after the order to rebuild Jerusalem which we know went out in around 538BC. Ezra clearly says it is Cyrus's edict that fulfils the words of Jeremiah. To say some other rulers like Artaxerxes I edict of 458BC is the start date is to call God and Ezra liars. 538BC - 483 yrs. puts us at about 55BC. How can this possibly be Jesus he wasn't even born yet. Further more Jesus was never cut off and had nothing.

    It is also important to understand that the last week is to be added in to the 62 weeks. Unlike the first seven weeks, which are clearly defined, the last week is not defined. The whole prophecy ends at the end of verse 26. "and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed" He then goes back in History to explain the first of many desolations of the Temple that will occur.

    27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

    Consider the phrasing he clearly end his thought at verse 26 and then verse 27 he speaks of this Prince who starts the desolation, he then continues on to the exact same end as in verse 26 he assumes the reader has read chapter 11.

    Now lets look at History and Scripture and see what we get. 49 years after the word 538BC would put us at about 489BC.

    Most Historians can not agree on any of the dates involved. However scripture says this in Zechariah 6:

    11: Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest; 12: And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 13: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.


    Here Joshua is named Priest King by God. Most historians believe this took place about 516BC. I am left wondering if this date of 516BC is not off by 27 years. Scripture says Joshua is the Priest King it also says in Daniel that he comes after 49 yrs from the edict, he must have arrived in about 489BC not 516BC unless the date of Cyrus's edict is wrong. I choose to believe Scriptural account and believe God's word rather that the confused historical account of this period. 538 - 49 = 489 ; 489 - 434 = 55 BC - 7years final week = 47BC

    Antipater an Arab of Jewish faith, the Father of Herod the Great, became Governor of the Judea in 55BC he was a Arab not a Jew. His son would soon be named King of the Jews by Rome. and his Ascension to the thrown was the beginning of the end to the Priest Kings of the Second Temple Era. In 47 BC the Roman entered the Temple murdered all the Priest including the High Priest and wrapped up the 490 years. No high priest from then on would dare to defy Rome.

    In fact Rome installed all the High Priests from 63BC on to 70 AD when Titus destroyed the Temple.. In 67 BC Pompey sided with Hyrcanus II for High Priest against Antigonus. Antigonus revolted and deposed Hyrcanus II Pompey Attacked Jerusalem Killing all the Priests in the Temple and desecrating the Temple by and entering the Holy of Holies.

    The final week, , is divided into two halves, which almost all Christian Churches say is Jesus' ministry on Earth and that Jesus is the Prince cut off in the middle of the week. He already was here and taught for three and a half years. They then say this Prince changes identity and turns on the temple for the last 3.5 years. I guess he will also trample the saints for 3.5years.

    This is not Jesus, this is one of the Kings of the North of Daniel 11. This week is the seven-year Maccabean war from 167 to 160BC.

    This was the start of War and Many Desolations of the Temple, which Daniel is told, will continue until the end of Jerusalem. Here are the dates of the desolation’s 167BC, 162 BC, 63BC, 47BC, 27BC down to 17 AD is the longest as pictures or plaques of Augustus where set up in every wall of the wing of the Temple and upon the wing of abominations. Tiberius pictures or busts replaced Augustus and were there when Jesus taught in the temple about 26AD.

    Jerusalem's end coming with a Flood.

    Which also matches with Jesus words in Rev 12:

    15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

    THIS IS THE TRUTH OF DANIEL 9:

    If you combine the 62 weeks and the 7 weeks and say Jesus is the anointed on that is cut off you are saying that Jesus was cut off in 55BC which is 483 years after Cyrus's Decree. It makes no sense at all, no matter which translation you use. While I admit it is tempting to move this last week to be the final week of tribulation, the prophecy, the question being asked, and its answer, make it clear that this is not the case. In fact the Great tribulation the time of Jacobs trouble only last for 1335 days not seven years as we will see.

    Just The Facts
     
  4. duster1az

    duster1az Member

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    Wills writes: "The Millenial temple is referred to in Revelation 21:22

    There was no temple in the city of Jerusalem, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty

    and the Lamb.

    Pray, which millenial structure are you referring to? It says there is no structure

    as the temple.

    Could you please provide the scripture to explain what you mean by " the Holy of Holies in the mellennial temple that will stand in Jerusalem.?"

    Read Ezekiel chapters 40-44.

    In Christ,
    Tracey
     
  5. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi dusteriaz,

    Could you explain what this is about? I don't follow this at all. What should we get from Ezekiel?
    Justme
     
  6. Wills

    Wills Member

    286
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    The earth swallowed the flood. Revelation 12:16.

    It did not create a disaster and the woman was saved.
     
  7. Wills

    Wills Member

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    You could be right on the cut off part especially the part that says HAD NOTHING.

    CHRIST defeated death and ascended to the throne of God.

    Mark 16:19 Taken up into Heaven and sat down on the right hand of God

    Matthew 28:18 All authority in Heaven and Earth has been given to me.

    Now Christ HAD EVERYTHING after He was crucified and resurrected..... not nothing.

    Yes, Christ did not lose anything after His victory on the cross.

    He gained everything.
     
  8. Wills

    Wills Member

    286
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    Just The Facts
    THE COMMAND TO BUILD THE TEMPLE

    Does Haggai fit into the timeline you state, for Joshua son of Jehozadak is also mentioned here. You mentioned this same Joshua in your post.

    1 In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the
    month, came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet unto Zerubbabel
    the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the
    high priest, saying,
    2 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, This people say, The time is not
    come, the time that the LORD's house should be built.
    3 Then came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet, saying,
    4 Is it time for you, O ye, to dwell in your cieled houses, and this house lie
    waste?

    12 Then Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Joshua the son of Josedech, the
    high priest, with all the remnant of the people, obeyed the voice of the LORD
    their God, and the words of Haggai the prophet, as the LORD their God had
    sent him, and the people did fear before the LORD.
    13 Then spake Haggai the LORD's messenger in the LORD's message unto the
    people, saying, I am with you, saith the LORD.
    14 And the LORD stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel,
    governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest,
    and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and did work in
    the house of the LORD of hosts, their God,
    15 In the four and twentieth day of the sixth month, in the second year of Darius
    the king.
     
  9. Wills

    Wills Member

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    Pray, is this temple in the future? I see a goat being sacrificed in Ezekiel 43:22

    I see a prince supervising SIN offerings. Why is there SIN around this temple of future?

    EZEKIEL 45:17 WHICH PRINCE IS THIS?
    17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings,
    and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in
    all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the SIN offering, and the
    meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make
    reconciliation for the house of Israel.

    Why SIN HERE?
    Ezekiel 46:13 Thou shalt daily prepare a burnt offering unto the LORD of a lamb of the
    first year without blemish: thou shalt prepare it every morning.
    14 And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of
    an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a meat
    offering continually by a perpetual ordinance unto the LORD.
    15 Thus shall they prepare the lamb, and the meat offering, and the oil, every
    morning for a continual burnt offering.

    Ezekiel 46:20 Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the
    trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering;
    that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.
     
  10. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    1: Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
    2: Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
    3: Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.

    No GOD SAYS IT IS CYRUS WHO FULFILS THE PROPHECY AND ISSUES THE DECREE
     
  11. Wills

    Wills Member

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    Hi JTF
    I am wondering why this is not valid in your eyes. God was direct here.

    Was a kingdom (small one) established here. God ACTUALLY annointed a priest-king as stated in Zechariah 6. This was not just a vision, it actually happened under Zerubbabel.

    Does the dates make it not fit the time line in Daniel?

    14 And the LORD stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel,
    governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest,
    and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and did work in
    the house of the LORD of hosts, their God,
    15 In the four and twentieth day of the sixth month, in the second year of Darius
    the king.
     
  12. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +66
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    Hi

    Yes Joshua is the priest King that comes after seven weeks of years.

    But the Decree is that of Cyrus in 538 BC it is that date that decree because God says this is the decree Ezra:1.

    What amazes me is that when you take the 490 years starting at 538 BC you get 47 BC which is when the last independent high priest was Murdered by the Romans. Not only that it also marks the year Herod's son was name King of Judea,

    It truly was the end of this line of Priest Kings cut off and they had nothing. As the prophecy states, after the 490 years Jesus will be born then the Roman will destroy Jerusalem.

    Just The Facts
     
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