When We Choose

[Reformationist]

I often hear the following statement expressed:

"Before a person makes the decision to put their trust in Christ, that person has a sin nature.  The moment he puts his trust in Jesus, he is a new creation.  The old evil nature, the old evil self is crucified in Christ."  This is a quote of the words of Slave2SinNoMore.  I am only quoting him because this seems to be the popular viewpoint and he summed it up in this statement.

My question is, if you agree with this, do you feel that man still has a sinful nature when this decision is made and then it changes upon making this decision, or, do you feel that man is regenerated the moment before he makes this decision?  Or, if you agree with the above statement of Slave2SinNoMore's, do you see an alternative understanding to this philosophy?

Thanks for your time.

God bless

 

[Gabriel]

Irresistible Grace- The response of God's Elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit.  All whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of Him (John 6:37)  The spirit of God leads His beloved to repentance(Romans 8:14).  We are called, then regenerate, then converted.  We must be regenerate before we see our sin and acknowledge our need for a Savior.

A dead man makes no choices.

The only difference of opinion that you and i may have based on what you wrote is that I believe and have seen evidence of people that are regenerate, but do not experience conversion for quite some time.  My wife is a perfect example.  She was feeling convicted of some of her behavior and ways of life a few months before she even stepped foot in a church, learned the gospel or acknowledged Christ.

 

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Gabriel
The only difference of opinion that you and i may have based on what you wrote is that I believe and have seen evidence of people that are regenerate, but do not experience conversion for quite some time.

Gabe, I don't believe that what I wrote above.  I was asking the reasoning behind the view from those who do believe that.

I believe what you believe bro!

God bless

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Reformationist
I often hear the following statement expressed:

or, do you feel that man is regenerated the moment before he makes this decision? 
Thanks for your time.

God bless

This is what I was talking about.  I was still not thinking clearly and read your thread wrong.

My apologies.

 

[ZiSunka]

I think that the sin nature is gone--that is, the desire to habitually sin. People who truly are in Christ don't want to keep offending God, they want to do what is right more than they want to do what is wrong. It may take a while to break those old habits, but the heart-drive to sin and rebel against God is gone.

 

[D-Lyte]

Paul often mention in his letters that we are in constant struggle with the flesh. That we should focus on the Spirit instead of on the lust of the flesh (etc). And seeing post after post of how our bros/sis' struggle to beat the flesh desires + my own experiences, I feel that we are still tempted here and there. The only difference now is that we have the Holy Spirit on our side and that gives us a better odds of winning this spiritual war.

 

[Flibertyjibbet]

I think it's a matter of timing. We are being regenerated, sanctified...we are not completed as yet. It's not that we are perfect, but that we are being perfected. So we are still living in our sinful flesh indwelt with the Kingdom of God. What a paradoxal existence we have!  Yet it is in this struggle against the flesh, the world and the devil that we learn to live through the grace of Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit, growing (again, a process, not an end) into completion.

We will not be totally free from the naturalness to sin, till we physically put off this ole flesh in death.

Blessings,

Robin

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by lambslove
I think that the sin nature is gone--that is, the desire to habitually sin. People who truly are in Christ don't want to keep offending God, they want to do what is right more than they want to do what is wrong. It may take a while to break those old habits, but the heart-drive to sin and rebel against God is gone.

Well, I obviously worded this question badly.  What I'm asking is do you think man is still in his fallen state when he makes the decision to serve Christ?  I'm not talking about saved people living in disobedience.  I'm talking about making the decision to "accept Christ" and receive salvation.  Do you believe man is in a fallen state when he makes that decision?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by D-Lyte
Paul often mention in his letters that we are in constant struggle with the flesh. That we should focus on the Spirit instead of on the lust of the flesh (etc). And seeing post after post of how our bros/sis' struggle to beat the flesh desires + my own experiences, I feel that we are still tempted here and there. The only difference now is that we have the Holy Spirit on our side and that gives us a better odds of winning this spiritual war.

Again, I'm not talking about Christians who struggle.  I'm talking about receiving salvation.  Do you believe man is in an unregenerate, unsaved state when he makes the decision to receive Christ.

Thanks,

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Flibertyjibbet
I think it's a matter of timing. We are being regenerated, sanctified...we are not completed as yet. It's not that we are perfect, but that we are being perfected. So we are still living in our sinful flesh indwelt with the Kingdom of God. What a paradoxal existence we have!  Yet it is in this struggle against the flesh, the world and the devil that we learn to live through the grace of Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit, growing (again, a process, not an end) into completion.

We will not be totally free from the naturalness to sin, till we physically put off this ole flesh in death.

Blessings,

Robin

Hey Robin, I totally agree with everything you said, but it wasn't really what I was asking.  I, too, feel there is a marked difference between salvation and sanctification.  What I'm asking is, if you agree that man makes the decision to choose Christ and that is what brings about his salvation, do you believe he is in a fallen state when he makes that decision?

Thanks,

God bless

 

[LouisBooth]

"A dead man makes no choices. "

I would sort of disagree. God draws all to him. Thus your only choice is allowence, or nonallowence.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"A dead man makes no choices. "

I would sort of disagree. God draws all to him. Thus your only choice is allowence, or nonallowence.

All may be drawn, but all are not elect.  Until we are made alive throught the Spirit we are unable to truly acknowledge God. Ephesians 2:4&5 "But God who is rich in mercy, because of his great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and Ephesians 5:14Therefore he says: Awake you who sleep, Arise from the dead and Christ will give you light.

We were dead, unable to see our depravity.  He made us alive so we could see and understand that we need Him.  That only through Him may we truly live.

A dead man makes no choices, but a man made alive through the Spirit's call acknowledges his Savior.  We must be made alive (regenerate) before we can acknowledge (conversion) Him.  Is it our choice now?  No, It is by grace you are saved.....not by works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
God draws all to him. Thus your only choice is allowence, or nonallowence.

Let's look at this from a grammatical point of view.  If God draws everyone why does Scripture make such a blatant distinction? 

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, if God draws all why make a distinction as to those who can come being only those that are drawn.  That would be like saying, "Only those people who are breathing are alive."  Kind of a given, don't you think?  Do you think God would relay that type of information?

One more thing.  That verse says that only those that the Father draws to Christ (which you say is everyone) can come and those will be raised up on the last day.  Do you believe that everyone can come, or, do you support what this passage says that only those (and that obviously doesn't mean everyone) who the Father draws (drags) can come to Christ?

God bless

 

[LouisBooth]

"All may be drawn, but all are not elect. "

Agreed, because some allow God to work and others don't.

"Now, if God draws all why make a distinction as to those who can come being only those that are drawn. "

context ref. Statements before and after that imply that all are drawn. check verses 45 and 37. There is a choice in there, but it has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul, just allowence.

"Kind of a given, don't you think? Do you think God would relay that type of information? "

yup, he does that a lot in the bible. John 3 for example. Those that believe are not condemned, but then he says those that do not believe are condemned

"Do you believe that everyone can come, or, do you support what this passage says that only those (and that obviously doesn't mean everyone) who the Father draws (drags) can come to Christ?"

context. All are drawn, few come (come by allowing God to draw them).

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"All may be drawn, but all are not elect. "

Agreed, because some allow God to work and others don't."

What?  Allow God?  Dude, you or I do not allow God anything.  Sovereign, look it up.

If you are so sure of your point why didn't you address the scripture I used to back up mine?  How can people with the Armenian point of view always deny the truth of scripture?  Election is plainly written throughout the bible.  How can you deny it?    Oh wait, I know. 2 Timothy 4:3&4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
context ref.

I'm always amazed that when people disagree with each other their battle cry is that the proponant of the opposing view is citing out of context.  I know that I do that oftentimes as well.

yup, he does that a lot in the bible. John 3 for example. Those that believe are not condemned, but then he says those that do not believe are condemned

Okay bro.  This is getting a bit monotonous to me.  I'm going to bail on this line of discussion.  Hopefully something else will arise.

Thanks for sharing though.

God bless

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Reformationist
I'm always amazed that when people disagree with each other their battle cry is that the proponant of the opposing view is citing out of context.  I know that I do that oftentimes as well.



Okay bro.  This is getting a bit monotonous to me.  I'm going to bail on this line of discussion.  Hopefully something else will arise.

Thanks for sharing though.

God bless

Out of context is a valid arguement sometimes.  Quite often lately, actually.  Especially when arguing with an Armenian.

I, too, grow weary of this.  It seems that I am getting all worked up trying to do God's job.  I cannot make someone see the truth anymore than a dead man can make a choice.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Gabriel
Out of context is a valid arguement sometimes.

I agree fully.  It just seems overused.

It seems that I am getting all worked up trying to do God's job.  I cannot make someone see the truth anymore than a dead man can make a choice.

Very true brother.

God bless

 

[D-Lyte]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Do you believe man is in an unregenerate, unsaved state when he makes the decision to receive Christ.

Thanks,

God bless

Yes, if a man is in a "regenerate and saved" state, then our Lord wouldn't be needed.  But of course, we know that our salvation comes through Him.  Hope I answer the right question this time.

 

[D-Lyte]

Originally posted by Gabriel
Out of context is a valid arguement sometimes.  Quite often lately, actually.  Especially when arguing with an Armenian.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you mean by "especially when arguing with an Armenian?"  Please enlighten me with your knowledge.

I, too, grow weary of this.  It seems that I am getting all worked up trying to do God's job.  I cannot make someone see the truth anymore than a dead man can make a choice. [/B]

As a brother, I hope to remind you that we are here not to do "God's job," we are not Him.  Also, please try to help one another...not making each other feel bad or insulted.  Thanks