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When was Jesus born ? In what way did he himself ask that followers remember him?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by strangertoo, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    A fellow named Macrobius--not Josephus--wrote that in the Fifth Century AD. Josephus never mentioned anything about the slaughter of the innocents. By the way, the date of Herod's death remains unverified. Much speculation places it between sometime in 4BC and sometime in 1BC....
     
  2. Righttruth

    Righttruth Regular Member Supporter

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    The wise men from East can only be from India. It had well versed astronomers and astrologers during the period of Jesus' birth. Roman empire had trade contacts with India. Jews were residing in India since Solomon's time for business. Apostles Thomas and Bartholomew came to India subsequently. Thomas was martyred in India.
     
  3. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

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    Macrobius also said it. What he said was "Five days before Herod's death, he killed his son when he killed the boys two years old and under in Bethlehem ..." There is no debate about when Herod died. The history books say he died on April 1, 4BC. (And I should have said the eclipse and appearance of Venus over Bethlehem on March 27th, 4BC was 5 days before Herod's death. I will correct my post).
     
  4. Zetlander

    Zetlander Member

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    Sorry for this but that is catholic mythology. The Maggi, were from babylon, whre daniel had set up a school of maggi, astromners etc who were watching the signs in the sky for the comming of the messiah……the answer about Yeshua's birth can be found in Scripture:

    Luke 2: 1. Now it happened in those days that a decree went out from Augustus Caesar that the names of all the people of his dominion should be written down. 2. This census first happened during the governorship of Qurinius in Syria. 3. And everyone went in his own city to be registered. 4. And Yosip was also going up from Nasrath, a city of Galeela into Yehuda to the city of Dawid, which is called Beth-Lekhem, because he was from the house and from the clan of Dawid, 5. With Maryam his bride while she was pregnant, that there they might be registered. 6. And it happened that while they were there, her days of pregnancy were fulfilled. 7. And she bore him a firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger because there was no room where they could lodge. 8. At this time shepherds were there in that region were they were lodging and keeping watch there at night over their flocks. (AENT)

    Miriam was forced to give birth in a stable because there was no room at the inn - because people from all over had gathered in Jerusalem for the census! Not to mention, it was also the festival of Sukkot - Tabernacles - when many pilgrims came to celebrate in Jerusalem....

    Bethlehem is only about 5 miles from Jerusalem and so Y'shua was born there because was no room at the inn. The name Bethlehem means "House Of Bread", with the strong connotation of House Of Battle. And as we all know, Y'shua is the Bread of Life" (John 6:43-51).


    YHWH (Yahweh/The Creator) arranged for His Son to be born in His timing - as revealed in His Mo'edim - Biblical Feasts/Appointed Times. Yeshua has so far fulfilled on the first FOUR of the SEVEN Biblical Feasts and there are just three more to go!

    One of the Feasts Yeshua fulfilled was His own birthday: The first day of Sukkot - the Feast of Tabernacles, which falls in the September/October timeframe on our man-made Gregorian calendars - three months before "Christmas"! This makes Christmas a lie on many levels, especially the "Santa Claus" lie we tell our children. Most know that lying is a sin....

    Shepherds do not "abide in the fields" in December with their sheep in Israel, not 2,000 years ago and not now. It is well known that shepherds stay in shelters starting in November, with the arrival of the rainy season.

    If you know what the Star of Bethlehem is (Jupiter) then you know when the Nativity was. The Magi told Herod "the time the star appeared" and Herod killed infants two years and under in response. That means the Magi were tracking the "king's star" for two years, because Herod didn't stop from killing his own children and his favorite wife, per Josephus. In fact, Josephus says that Augustus Caesar himself remarked that he would rather be one of Herod's dogs than one of his children. The only "star of kings" that Magi would have known was Jupiter. "Magi" refers to Zoroastrian priests from either Babylon or Persia (Iran or Iraq), both of which are EAST of Israel and both tracked a triple conjunction of Jupiter (the king's planet) and Saturn (the savior planet for the Jews) in Aries (the zodiac sing for Syria and Israel in their mythology). Zoroastrians had a myth that their version of Messiah, called "Saoshyant" in their scriptures, would be born "in the west, in a foreign land." When the triple conjunction, along with a comet and other things, all began in 7 BCE, they knew they had to grab the incense and go. Jupiter even went behind the sun and "died" - was invisible, for more than a year. It emerged triumphantly from behind the sun in mid 6 BCE and tracked west for 4 months, pausing over Bethlehem on Sept. 5 BCE.

    As if that isn't compelling enough, remember Luke tells us Zechariah, John the Baptist's father, served 15 months in the Temple before Messiah was born. Luke gives us the name of the course: Abijah (Luke 1:5). Guess what? We know when Abijah served during this time, and when we add 15 months it comes again to Sept, 5 BCE.

    Likewise we can date the first census of Qurinius as well, as Romans counted folks every 14 years and people in Egypt - like Josef and Mary - were forced to return to their ANCESTRAL HOMES to pay the tax. This is verified in the Bible; it is not open to interpretation!

    Luke and John synch on the same year for the beginning of Messiah's ministry: 27 BCE. How do we know that? Forty-six years from the beginning of Herod's temple and the 15th year of Tiberius bring us to the same year. Co-regencies were counted as part of Roman rule, so Tiberius co-ruled with Augustus starting in 12 CE. Josephus says Herod began building the Temple in 19 BCE. Then Luke says Y'shua was "about 30" when he began his ministry. By this clock, he would be 30 years exactly and a few months. (No year 0 in the timeline so 4 years to 1 BCE +26 to get to Rosh hashanna = 30).
     
  5. Righttruth

    Righttruth Regular Member Supporter

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    Catholic or Protestant doesn't support that Magi were from India. I doubt your inference too because Daniel's period is far back from the birth of Jesus. Astrologers thrive under the support of kings of the land. There was no such kingdom of Persia at that time. The recognized kingdom to the East of Jerusalem was India where well learned men in astronomy and astrology grew in royal patronages. Hinduism's great contribution of '0' to mathematics helped them in their precise calculations!
     
  6. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    Macrobius wrote--not Josephus. I have read what Josephus said. He did not mention anything about boys in Bethlehem being murdered. So, unless you magically came across some writings by Josephus that nobody else has ever discovered, I suggest you stop making false assertions. As for the date of Herod's death. I agree that it probably occurred in 4BC. But the date of his death remains a matter of debate for historians and scholars. There are no records from the period specifying it. By the way, the eclipse that you are referring to took place on March 16th.....
     
  7. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    Magi most certainly did reside in Mesopotamia at the time of Yeshua's birth. Whomever the author or authors of Matthew might have been referring to, the chances of Magi or so-called wise men showing up as claimed are highly unlikely. As I pointed out, Herod, being a paranoid megalomaniac, would have assigned spies to follow them. Herod would have then known exactly where to find Yeshua....
     
  8. Righttruth

    Righttruth Regular Member Supporter

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    Your guess may be as good as mine!
     
  9. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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    Pretty good stuff
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
  10. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

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    There was no solar eclipse on March 16th, 4 BC. There was a solar eclipse on March 27th that year. I saw it with my own eyes when running a star tracking program called Distant Suns. And I saw the Star in the East (Venus) pass over Bethlehem during the eclipse. There can be no doubt that Jesus was born on March 27th, 4 BC.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You make a lot of claims but present no evidence to back up those claims. let's see what Alfred Edersheim a 19th century Jewish convert to Christianity had to say about this.

    The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 1883, Alfred Edersheim, Appendix VII Vol I, p. 264

    But as we pass from the sacred gloom of the cave out into the night, its sky all aglow with starry brightness, its loneliness is peopled, and its silence made vocal from heaven. There is nothing now to conceal, but much to reveal, though the manner of it would seem strangely incongruous to Jewish thinking. And yet Jewish tradition may here prove both illustrative and helpful. That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, [1 In the curious story of His birth, related in the Jer. Talmud (Ber. ii. 3), He is said to have been born in 'the royal castle of Bethlehem;' while in the parallel narrative in the Midr. on Lament. i. 16, ed. W. p. 64 b) the somewhat mysterious expression is used But we must keep in view the Rabbinic statement that, even if a castle falls down, it is still called a castle (Yalkut, vol. ii. p. 60 b).] was a settled conviction. Equally so was the belief, that He was to be revealed from Migdal Eder, 'the tower of the flock.' [a Targum Pseudo-Jon. on Gen. xxxv 21.]

    This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah [b Shek. vii. 4.] leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices, [2 In fact the Mishnah (Baba K. vii. 7) expressly forbids the keeping of flocks throughout the land of Israel, except in the wilderness, and the only flocks otherwise kept, would be those for the Temple-services (Baba K. 80 a).] and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism, [1 This disposes of an inapt quotation (from Delitzsch) by Dr. Geikie. No one could imagine, that the Talmudic passages in question could apply to such shepherds as these.] on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life, which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not absolutely impossible.

    The same Mishnaic passage also leads us to infer, that these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover, that is, in the month of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest. [2 The mean of 22 seasons in Jerusalem amounted to 4.718 inches in December, 5.479 in January, and 5.207 in February (see a very interesting paper by Dr. Chaplin in Quart. Stat. of Pal. Explor. Fund, January, 1883). For 1876-77 we have these startling figures: mean for December, .490; for January, 1.595; for February, 8.750, and, similarly, in other years. And so we read: 'Good the year in which Tebheth (December) is without rain' (Taan. 6 b). Those who have copied Lightfoot's quotations about the flocks not lying out during the winter months ought, at least, to have known that the reference in the Talmudic passages is expressly to the flocks which pastured in 'the wilderness'.

    But even so, the statement, as so many others of the kind, is not accurate. For, in the Talmud two opinions are expressed. According to one, the 'Midbariyoth,' or 'animals of the wilderness,' are those which go to the open at the Passovertime, and return at the first rains (about November); while, on the other hand, Rabbi maintains, and, as it seems, more authoritatively, that the wilderness-flocks remain in the open alike in the hottest days and in the rainy season, i.e. all the year round (Bezah 40 a). Comp. also Tosephta Bezah iv. 6. A somewhat different explanation is given in Jer. Bezah 63 b.] Thus, Jewish tradition in some dim manner apprehended the first revelation of the Messiah from that Migdal Eder, where shepherds watched the Temple-flocks all the year round. Of the deep symbolic significance of such a coincidence, it is needless to speak.

    It was, then, on that 'wintry night' of the 25th of December, [3 There is no adequate reason for questioning the historical accuracy of this date.​
     
  12. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    Your program is screwy. There was no solar eclipse on March 27, 4BC. I am looking at an ephemeris chart. According to it, the sun was at 3 degrees Aries and the moon was entering Aries. The problem is that the lunar ascending node was at 11 degrees/twenty-four minutes Pisces. That means there was no solar eclipse since the node placed the moon too far way from the eclipse point. Then there is the Venus problem. On March 27, 4BC, Venus began the day at 2 degrees Aries. It would have been eclipsing the sun or passing close to it, meaning that it would have been invisible. That is beside the fact that neither Venus nor any other planet or astrobody cans pass over any particular place on our planet. They pass over all of the planet....

    Nonetheless, I miswrote about the March lunar eclipse. It took place on
    March 13, 4BC.

    Even so, we have one other little problem. If Magi or so-called wise men actually did show up and honor the birth of Yeshua and if Herod sent agents to murder all of the infant boys in Bethlehem, why would Mary and Joseph have skedaddled to Egypt if Herod had died within days of Yeshua's birth? Them fleeing to Egypt suggests Herod must have still been alive at least a few weeks after Yeshua was born. Yet you seem to claim he died five days after Yeshua's birth. Surely, the news would have caught up to Joseph and Mary long before they could have arrived in Egypt. Besides, it seems likely God would have spoken to them or sent an angel to let them know the danger had passed. Thus, no escape to Egypt would have been necessary....

    Lastly, there is a lot of hoopla about Herod's goons slaughtering dozens or even hundreds of infants. The truth is that Bethlehem was such a small community that there could not have been more than a handful of infant boys in it. From that perspective, it is easy to see why the incident escaped the notice of the era's chroniclers. More than likely, though, they failed to record it because it probably never actually happened....

    If the star was in the east, how could it be said to pass over Bethlehem? If it did pass over Bethlehem or hover above it, how come nobody other than the Magi or so-called wise men seemed to have noticed it?...By the way, Venus never travels more than 72 degrees away from the sun. It cannot be seen overhead at any time--even during eclipses....

    So many holes in the story and in interpreters' reckonings....
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  13. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    Der Alter, I agree with Zetlander's assertion that shepherds did not and do not take their sheep into the field in December in the Holy Land. First, the weather is generally cold then, especially toward the end of December. Secondly, what would they eat in the field at that time of the year? The grasses would be dead. All herbs would be dead. Even most weeds would be dead...Those Church big shots that chose December 25th as the birth date for Yeshua did so arbitrarily to snooker pagans into believing Yeshua was born on one of their holy days....
     
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