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When was Jesus born ? In what way did he himself ask that followers remember him?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by strangertoo, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

    john was born around Passover....
    Jesus was born 6 months after that.
  2. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest


    His birth was similar to that of Elijah.

    The ancient Tradition of the Jews (reported in a 12th century kabbalahistic writing) is attested to by another writer from the 3rd century, Epiphanius.
    Epiphanius tells us essentially the same story as we find in Luke2:
    The heavenly father observes the birth of Jesus similar to the birth of Elijah wrapped in swaddling clothes, and [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']angels of God around him.[/FONT]
  3. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

    First, I'd like to thank you, Cupid, for acknowledging that this "ancient tradition" comes from 12th century Kaballists. That may be a minor detail, but it's a big improvement for you. Things like this will be appreciated as long as you don't backslide.

    BUT.... (and you know where I'm going) Epiphanius does not tell the same story about Elijah as we hear about Jesus in Luke. Another minor detail you erred on... Epiphanius is 4th century.

    His account, as you know, is that Elijah's earthly father (which Jesus didn't have) had a vision of Elijah as a baby being swaddled with fire by angels and fed with flames.

    This did not happen to Jesus. No one would accept that it did. If Epiphanius' story was simply that Elijah was in swaddling clothes 1) It's not interesting enough to even bother telling, and b) millions of people have been wrapped in swaddling, so it has no special significance tying Elijah to anyone else, including Jesus.

    But thanks for acknowledging that the tradition of Elijah having a miraculous birth started in no later than the 12th century AD. You are headed in the right direction. Don't stumble.
  4. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest


    Are you suggesting that the Kabbalahists invented this idea and it became the tradition today?

    I wiuld prefer to believe the Kabbalahists merely reported the tradition because Kabbalah itself means "tradition," doesn't it?
  5. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

    Kaballah means "receiving."

    Something you struggle to do.
  6. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

    FWIW, I don't mean that in a harsh way.

    I tell you this because I hope it will help you refine yourself and grow.
  7. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest



    A Rabbi who denies his own esoteric insights is pretty funny.

    What is "received"of course is the teachings which are thus held by kabbalists to define the inner meaning of both the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible, תַּנַ"ךְ‎ ) and traditional rabbinic literature,...

    "The origins of the actual term Kabbalah are unknown... other terms have been used in many religious documents from the 2nd century up to the present day, the term "Kabbalah" has become the main descriptive of Jewish esoteric knowledge and practices.
  8. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest



    I am not unsympathic to the plight of Jews who will gradually face the evidence that Christ was their own Elijah:

    Zech. 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, (Christianity, [Rev 5:5]) and upon the (House of Nathan, the theocratic) inhabitants of Jerusalem,(the House of Judah), the spirit of grace and of supplications: and (the rabbi), they shall look upon me [Mal 4:5; Rev 22:4] whom they have pierced: [Ps 22:16] and they shall mourn for him, (Jesus), as one mourneth for his only son, (actually, their Elijah who returned in 32AD) and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn: [Gen 22:2,13]
  9. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest


    Do you remember when I said this to you?:

    "I also know that it is a mistake to extend an olive branch to you for a number of reasons. You don't value honesty, so innately, you don't value loyalty either. So you are quick to turn your back on people for the slightest disagreement. Secondly, you will see kindness for weakness and take that opportunity to be an aggressor. And thirdly, you want to lash out at me, anyway, for always calling you on your bluffs.

    So, I'm not going to extend an olive branch to you. "

    You don't know HOW to receive and, as such, you have not received. Having not received, you cannot know, and have no right to claim to know, what it is that is given.

    If I ever have sympathy enough to offer you an olive branch again, I suggest that you take it.
  10. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest


    I want no olive branches in compromise, but the intellectual honesty that leads the discussion to the Truth of what scripture actually says.

    I am not interested in followers nor adherents nor a constituiency of supporters.
    What I am doing is introducing the point of view that no one wants to entertain and from which all will flee, because their mind is set in erronous dogma and doctrines and paradigms that they love.

    There has been no argument introduced by you that would not have occurred to others.
    So you afford the opportunity to answer those questions which if unasked might remain as reasons to doubt what I say.

    It is an important thing that you do here.
    You critique and challange every statement which requires that I produce the evidence and support that is necessary to back up what I post.

    Continue and be ever so much more diligent in straining each point so that we, together, may lay it all out before these other readers.
  11. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

    Cupid, you aren't interested in truth or intellectual honesty.

    Otherwise you wouldn't continue ad nauseum that bacteria are plants or that there are 7 of this and 12 of that while you purposely leave out the rest.

    Your POV is implausible and irrespective of facts.

    The readers here all know, and have already established that you aren't a person to go to to learn something. Your conclusions aren't trustworthy. Even when you are on the right track or saying something grounded in established fact you can't help yourself but to ruin it by sticking in a non-fact or to abuse the language to poke in bare assertions, as if they will go unnoticed and then accepted as fact.

    Let me be clear, here. by "olive branch" I wasn't talking about compromise. I was talking about kindness and mutual respect as long as your responses are worthy of those things. There is no compromise here. You have to completely give up on the lying.
  12. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest



    Mutual respect...?
    Read back and see that I have said nothing personal about you.
    Nor have I termed your differences and opinions to be lies, nor called you a liar.

    These are the things you will find you have said to me.
    I have consistently responded to the substance of you answers and questions.
    I have mere presented response that show I am correct and your criticism of what I say wrong and unfounded.

    I have always shown my sources and referenced all the statements Ihave made, regardless of your bias rejection of those sources.

    Thoug I consider you opinionsatd and staunchly opposed to accepting what I say, regardless of the sources that confirm them, I leave the judge of who is intellectually dishonest to other readewr of what we post here.

    That Bacteria is a plant in the Two Kingdom System does not deter you from ignoring that point.
    That Genesis clear uses the Two Kingdom System since only plants and animals are mentioned does not deter your continued attempt to dismiss the facts.

    It is my opinion that you have no intention of being correct by the facts, will never concede directly that what I post has qualifying supportive evidence to upold it.

    For instance, you have failed to acknowledge that six durations of time ARE marked in the six layers of rocks to which I have drawn your attention.

    You have tried to confuse the matter by insisting that many other layers exist, yet you fail to recommend these other layers to us.

    You claim that the final authority in this matter is the International Commission on Stratigraphy.

    But when I demonstrate that this organization support my claim of seven "days" as the seven eras, you refuse to apologize and give in to the facts



    Chronologic measurement:

    The geologic time scale provides a system of chronologic measurement relating
    to time that is used by geologists, paleontologists, and other earth scientists to describe the timing and relationships between events that have occurred during the history of the Earth.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2012
  13. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

    The ICS does not support your claims, Cupid. I've clearly demonstrated this, among every other argument you've made, you either misrepresent the data or make things up, even going so far as to confine the original enumerations of lists that appear as 5s 8s and 11s to 7 and 12.

    I call you a liar because you ARE a liar.
  14. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest


    The wiki page that you got this image? Directly under it it reads:

    "This clock representation shows some of the major units of geological time and definitive events of Earth history The Hadean eon represents the time before fossil record of life on Earth; its upper boundary is now regarded as 4.0 Ga.[1] Other subdivisions reflect the evolution of life; the Archean and Proterozoic are both EONS!!!, the Palaeozoic, Mesozoic and Cenozoic are eras of the Phanerozoic eon. The two million year Quaternary period, the time of recognizable humans, is too small to be visible at this scale. "

    THIS is what makes you a liar. Your need to remove the context as well as relevant information so that the "readers" will come to a conclusion that they otherwise wouldn't if they had ALL the information.

    Material misstatements can be made on accident, but your unwillingness to correct them once it is brought to your intention clearly demonstrates that your fraud is intentional.

    THAT is why no one does now, or will ever, believe anything you say.
  15. Mark51

    Mark51 Newbie Supporter

    The popular date of December 25 as the day of Jesus’ birth therefore has no basis in Scripture. As many reference works show, it stems from a pagan holiday. Regarding the origin for the celebration of the day December 25, the Jesuit scholar Urbanus Holzmeister wrote:

    “Today it is commonly admitted that the occasion for the celebration of the day December 25 was the festival that the pagans were celebrating on this day. Petavius [French Jesuit scholar, 1583-1652] already has rightly observed that on December 25 was celebrated ‘the birthday of the unconquered sun.’

    “Witnesses for this festival are: (a) The Calendar of Furius Dionysius Filocalus, composed in the year 354 [C.E.], in which it is noted: ‘December 25, the B(irthday) of the unconquered (Sun).’ (b) The calendar of astrologer Antiochus (composed about 200 [C.E.]): ‘Month of December .[bless and do not curse].[bless and do not curse]. 25 .[bless and do not curse].[bless and do not curse]. The birthday of the Sun; daylight increases.’ (c) Caesar Julian [Julian the Apostate, emperor 361-363[bless and do not curse]C.E.] recommended the games that were celebrated at the end of the year in honor of the sun, which was called ‘the unconquered sun.’”—Chronologia vitae Christi (Chronology of the Life of Christ), Pontificium Institutum Biblicum, Rome, 1933, p.[bless and do not curse]46.

    Perhaps the most obvious evidence of the incorrectness of the December 25 date is the Scriptural fact that shepherds were in the fields tending their flocks on the night of Jesus’ birth. (Luke 2:8,[bless and do not curse]12) Already by the autumn month of Bul (October-November) the rainy season was starting (Deuteronomy 11:14), and flocks were brought into protected shelters at night. The next month, Chislev (the ninth month of the Jewish calendar, November-December), was a month of cold and rain (Jeremiah 36:22; Ezra 10:9,[bless and do not curse]13), and Tebeth (December-January) saw the lowest temperatures of the year, with occasional snows in the highlands area. The presence of shepherds in the fields at night therefore harmonizes with the evidence pointing to the early autumn month of Ethanim as the time of Jesus’ birth.

    Also weighing against a December date is that it would be most unlikely for the Roman emperor to choose such a wintry, rainy month as the time for his Jewish subjects (often rebellious) to travel “each one to his own city” to be registered.—Luke 2:1-3; compare Matthew 24:20.

    Furthermore, the death of Jesus Christ took place in the spring, on the Passover Day, Nisan (or Abib) 14, according to the Jewish calendar. (Matthew 26:2; John 13:1-3; Exodus 12:1-6; 13:4) That year the Passover occurred on the sixth day of the week (counted by the Jews as from sundown on Thursday to sundown on Friday). This is evident from John 19:31, which shows that the following day was “a great” sabbath. The day after Passover was always a sabbath, no matter on what day of the week it came. (Leviticus 23:5-7) But when this special Sabbath coincided with the regular Sabbath (the seventh day of the week), it became “a great one.” So Jesus’ death took place on Friday, Nisan 14, by about 3:00 p.m.-Luke 23:44-46.

    Summing up, then, since Jesus’ death took place in the spring month of Nisan, his ministry, which began three and a half years earlier according to Daniel 9:24-27, must have begun in the fall, about the month of Ethanim (September-October). John’s ministry (initiated in Tiberius’ 15th year), then, must have begun in the spring of the year 29[bless and do not curse]C.E. John’s birth therefore would be placed in the spring of the year 2[bless and do not curse]B.C.E., Jesus’ birth would come about six months later in the fall of 2[bless and do not curse]B.C.E., his ministry would start about 30 years later in the fall of 29[bless and do not curse]C.E., and his death would come in the year 33[bless and do not curse]C.E. (on Nisan 14 in the spring, as stated).
  16. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

    Jesus was born on March 27th, 4 BC when the star in the east (Venus) appeared over Bethlehem during an eclipse. And yes, it was the start of the Jews holy year.
    And Venus, also called the Dayspring, appeared over the hill country of Judea six months earlier when John the Baptist was born. It was the start of the Jews secular year.
  17. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter


    How long did the star lead the Wise Men and where did it rest ?
  18. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

    LOL. The wise men were astronomers, and astronomers follow the stars by observing and charting them. By observing Venus for years, they knew that Venus always appeared near the sun, and they knew that a solar eclipse was coming up on the first day of the Jew's sacred calendar, and they knew Venus would be visible over the Holy Land. And stars do not rest in their path across the sky. Venus passed over Bethlehem in a few minutes, but it may have appeared to the naked eye to hover over what is now the Church of the Nativity. The wise men were probably the calendar keepers from the Qumran community east of Jerusalem. Anyone further east would have no interest in the birth of the Jew's Messiah.
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
  19. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

    Christian Seeker
    Interpreter, the wise men were Magi. That means they were both astronomers and astrologers. They might well have been interested in the birth of a king of Judea. They might well have known about and been interested in matters involving the Jews' Messiah. After all, they studied all sorts of matters and the Jews were part of Babylonian history. They were also neighbors. Many Jews live in Mesopotamia in those days. Nonetheless, the story of the Magi is highly suspect. Herod would have assigned spies to follow them. And so, he would have known where to find Yeshua and who his parents were. There is no mention of the so-called slaughter of the innocents in any known historical account other than the Gospel of Matthew. Most likely, it never happened. If it did occur, why was it not mentioned in the other gospels?....
  20. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

    Wrong. March 27th, 4 BC was five days before the death of Herod. And Josephus said that on that day Herod went mad following an eclipse and killed 300 innocents including his own son prompting Caesar to say "I would rather be one of Herod's swine than one of his sons."

    (edited to say March 27th, 4BC was five days before Herod's death)
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2015