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When was Jesus born ? In what way did he himself ask that followers remember him?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by strangertoo, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Mr 4:29 "But when the fruit is delivered, at once he sends away for the sickle, to stand before the harvest."
    30 And he said, "How shall we resemble the kingdom of God? By what parable is the purpose of it?
    31 As a grain of mustard, [CHRIST] which, is the least of all the seeds of those upon the earth when it is sown in the ground,
    32 And when it is sown, it grows up, and becomes the largest of all the cole, and makes large boughs; so that the winged of the heavens can tabernacle under its canopy.

    And this is when the building of the tabernacle begins: Leviticus 23:9-14

    "And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed" (Romans 13:11).

    Psalm 90:12: "So teach us to number our days, that we may gain a heart of wisdom." see (Hebrews 4:4-10). "to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:13).
    I Corinthians 15:20 "But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep."
    "But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming" (verse 23).
    Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending
    to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
     
  2. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest

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    The English speaking Christians need to understand that what their Bible calls "Transfiguration" is really in the greek a biology terminology, "metamorphosis."

    What happen on that mountain is called Kenosis, or "the emptying out" of the spirit of Elijah, as Jesus returns again to a mere son-of-man.

    What the two apostles witnessed and could not tell the others was Elijah leaving and rejoining Moses.

    Both of these spirits would return to the tomb later to resurrect Jesus.
     
  3. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

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    So, according to you, Kenosis, the emptying out of one's own will to be 100% receptive to God's Will, in the case of Jesus is emptying out the spirit that God put into him in order to be under his own will as an ordinary man.

    That is completely backwards, you understand?

    You aren't describing Kenosis.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2012
  4. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Has your mind been transformed? Then quote the verses for those misaligned statements.

    Mr 9:2 And after six days Jesus takes Peter, and James, and John, up to a high mountain and relates to them alone, in private: and he was transformed in their presence;

    3 And his garments became shining, very white, such as upon the earth was not fully able to whiten in this way.

    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G3339 μεταμορφώθη μεταμορφώνω metamorphosis, transformed, transfiguration; result of a complete change in appearance[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed <G33339> by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
     
  5. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest

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    Phil 2:6-8, "...although He, (Jesus), EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, (morphing into the spirit of Elijah), did not regard (Elijah) equality with God a thing to be grasped (but merely the son-of-God), but (in that transfiguration), EMPTIED himself, (by morphing back, in a Ritual of Kenosis that did portray the evacuating of noxious and defiling effects leaving an ascetic form of behavior accompanied with austerities), taking the form (again) of a bond-servant, (a son-of-man) and being made in the likeness of MEN.
    And being found in appearance as a man, He HUMBLED Himself by becoming obedient to the point of DEATH, even death on a cross.
     
  6. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

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    I don't care what you put in parenthesis.

    The scripture says nothing about Elijah.
     
  7. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest

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    Yes, we all do have the power to become the sons of God.

    But Christ was not renewing his mind, obviously.
    The choice synonym here is metamorphing as if a worm turning into a butterfly.


    46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, (Elijah), Eli, (Elijah), lama sabachthani? that is to say,...

    My God, (actually, he calls for Elijah) my God, (Elijah), why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
    But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. (Ps 22)


    47Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elijah.
     
  8. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest

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    What would you say these parenthetical explanations mean if not what I explain???
     
  9. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

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    Do you mean "what does the scripture say?"

    When you aren't defiling it, Phil 2 is talking about Christ coming in the flesh and the rewards of humility.
     
  10. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    I think you missed home plate and were out at first base.
    So do you think they cut Elias's head off?
    Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
    Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
     
  11. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest

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    Yes.
    They erroneously understood.

    This discussion was AFTER Elijah had already left Jesus in that transfiguring metamorphosis, and returned to Moses.

    Jesus was now merely the son-of-man again.

    Remember that Jesus had told the three witnesses to that event not to tell the others.

    Hence the others assumed Jesus was referring to john.
     
  12. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

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    That is obviously not the context.
     
  13. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Mr 8:29 And he said to them, 'And you -- who do you say me to be?' and Peter answering said to him, 'You are the Anointed'


    What vision? Is Jesus resurrected?

    Mat 17:9
    And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
     
  14. strangertoo

    strangertoo sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

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    I have tried and tested all the free anti-virus software [over some twenty years] and AVG finds all the problems whereas none other do ...Adaware and SpybotSD are both close to being as good but not quite ... if you want other reviews of efficacy they are on the web and indeed most folks site these three and conclude AVG is the best by a small margin ... some advocate using all three because it used to be that AVG missed some things that the others found , but in my experience that is no longer true [and I still check]
    anyway this is utterly off-topic as has the rest of this hi-jacked thread become so I'll end here...
     
  15. timbo3

    timbo3 Newbie

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    A close proximity of the birth date of Jesus can be established examining both secular history and the Bible. Luke 3:1, 2 says that "in the fifteenth year of the reign of Ti·be´ri·us Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Ju·de´a, and Herod was district ruler of Gal´i·lee, but Philip his brother was district ruler of the country of It·u·rae´a and Trach·o·ni´tis, and Ly·sa´ni·as was district ruler of Ab·i·le´ne, in the days of chief priest An´nas and of Ca´ia·phas, God&#8217;s declaration came to John the son of Zech·a·ri´ah in the wilderness."

    When was "the fifteenth year of the reign of Ti·be´ri·us Caesar" ? Secular history has established that Tiberius Caesar was named emperor on September 15, 14 C.E. by the Roman Senate, following the death of his stepfather Augustus Caesar on August 17, 14 C.E. Thus, fourteen years and some months later (or "in the fifteen year"), "God&#8217;s declaration came to John the son of Zech·a·ri´ah in the wilderness." The Romans did not use the accession-year system; consequently, the 15th year would run from the latter part of 28 C.E. to the latter part of 29 C.E.

    John was six months older than Jesus (Luke 1:35, 36) and began his ministry (evidently in the spring of the year) ahead of Jesus as Jesus&#8217; forerunner, preparing the way. Of Jesus, the Bible indicates he was born in the fall of the year, with the "shepherds living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks" (Luke 2:8), being about 30 years old when he came to John to be baptized.(Luke 3:21-23)

    Therefore he was baptized, most likely, in the fall, about October of 29 C.E. Counting back 30 years would bring us to the fall of 2 B.C.E. as the time of the human birth of the Son of God.

    At Daniel 9:24-27, it gives numerical information regarding the "Messiah", as to when he would "arrive" (not Jesus birth, but his becoming the Messiah). The angel Gabriel said to Daniel that "there are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. And you should know and have the insight that from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks......And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.....(of the seventieth week) and he must keep the (Abrahamic) covenant in force for the many for one week; at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease."

    These "weeks" are not literal weeks, but years. Thus, the beginning of the "seventy weeks" of years (or 490 years) was in 455 B.C.E, or "in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king" of Medo-Persia (Neh 2:1) when Nehemiah was allowed to go to Jerusalem, "to restore and rebuild Jerusalem".(Dan 9:25; Neh 2:3-5)

    Sixty-nine "weeks" of years (483 years from 455 B.C.E.) arrived in the year 29 C.E. (it need be remembered that there was no zero year between 1 B.C.E. and 1 C.E.) At this time, Jesus was baptized by John in the Jordan, most likely in the fall of the year.(Matt 3:13) Thirty years prior to this would bring Jesus birth to about the fall of 2 B.C.E.

    Though Jesus birth had significance, it was not his birth that God looked upon with favor, but rather his death. The principle is stated at Ecclesiastes 7:1, which says: "A name is better than good oil, and the day of death than the day of one&#8217;s being born." Why would the "day of death" be better " than the day of one&#8217;s being born" ?

    Simply put: At birth, no record of loyalty has been made, the slate is clean. On the other hand, at death, a person has shown whether or not he has a proven record of faithfulness toward God. It could be likened to buying a new car. It cannot be known as to how reliable that new car will be until perhaps a number of years has elapsed to show that it has been very dependable, and especially when there is a decision to replace it with another vehicle and having had a car that was trustworthy.

    Hence, Jesus death has far more importance than his birth, for at his death, he was able to provide the critical ransom for dying mankind.(Matt 20:28) Had he proven disloyal before death, as Adam had, then the ransom would have been null and void in God's eyes.

    With his perfect shed blood, Jesus was able to inaugurate the "new covenant" that replaced the "old Law covenant", for the apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrew Christians: "In his saying &#8220;a new [covenant]&#8221; he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away."(Heb 8:13)

    The door to heavenly life, those selected by God as "kings and priests" of God's kingdom (Rev 5:9, 10), was now opened following his death, for Paul said: "Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh."(Heb 10:19, 20)

    Thence, on the night of Nisan 14, 33 C.E, hours before his death, Jesus "took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: &#8220;This means my body which is to be given in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.&#8221; Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: &#8220;This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf."(Luke 22:19, 20; 1 Cor 11:23-26)
     
  16. strangertoo

    strangertoo sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

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    The fact is that shepherds only lose sleep by watching their flocks at night in the fields in the Spring, at lambing time ... that is what the Bible describes , and you have cited no biblical evidence for the fall at all ... there is no evidence that Jesus was baptised at the same time of year as his birth either, indeed the whole idea of a 'birthday' is astrological, Jesus did not have annual 'birthdays' and the date of birth is not an annual celebration in that Jewish tradition , it was pagan , heathen, to them...
    As for the date of his death, that is what Jesus specified as the annual remembrance of him , because he had satisfied the prophesies implicit in Passover, it could only continue as a remembrance day for him... but again the modern 'churches' of sinners' keep pagan days instead of the holy ones specified by God... one can understand people who understand the meaning of the days not keeping the days sometimes whn it is not possible , but to keep other days than God specified is very obviously a concession to traditions of people following pagan gods , as in Easter, Xmas, harvest festival, Eucharist, etc ... note taht none of the days kept in the apostate churches of sinners are the holy days which God stses are for all time and will be re-established in the new earth kingdom of Christ where the many are saved [because a few obey God even in this world of sinners in charge of mass religion] ... note that the 'congregation' of Jesus' church are the saints , there is no separate 'clergy' and every saint is EQUAL ... and Jesus leads his own chuch of sainst with none who do not stop being sinners being acceptable as members of his church ... it matters not that all were sinners, only that they stop sinning against others and love as commanded by Jesus... note that sin of clergy and congregation in modern apostate sinner churches is against the very foundation of God and Jesus states he will take none who ate still sinners at his return ... there is then importance indeed in seeing the deceptions in teh churches of mankind's traditions unacceptable to God, contrary to God's explicit directions on what days to keep [if one is going to keep any days, why choose pagan days just to fit in with sinners ?] :-

    2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [Jesus speaking of the time of his return - none who are still sinners can be 'raptured' with the dead and alive saints]

    Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
     
  17. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest

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    It is the context when one accepts the evidence that Jesus was indwelled with the Elijah who reappeared in 32AD.

    We see then that the mere son-of-a-man, Jesus, was ntransfigured at the baptism by John as the spirit of God came upon him.

    Transformed by that event, Jesus becomes the son-of-God thereafter, until Elijah leaves him in the transfiguration back again to the son-of-man.

    Jesus dies on the Cross, a mere man, suffering as we all would.

    Elijah and Moses return to the Tomb, and they resurrect Jesus.
     
  18. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest

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    Posted by cupid dave [​IMG]
    Yes.
    They erroneously understood Jesus, now returned to the state of the son of man.

    Remember that Jesus had told the three witnesses to that event not to tell the others.






    Matt. 17:2 And was transfigured, (i.e.; in the original Greek= metamorphized, as he emptied himself of the Holy Ghost of Elijah in the ritual of Kenosis: [Matt 28:19]), right before them, (the soul of Elijah, now departing from him: [Ps 22:1]): and his face did shine as the sun, (as had the face of Moses in the presence of God, on the mountain), and his raiment was white as the light: [Rev 1:13-15].



    Also...

    Phil 2:6-8, "...although He, (Jesus), EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, (morphing into the spirit of Elijah who is the son of God), did not regard (Elijah) equality with God, a thing to be grasped, (but merely the son-of-God), but (in that transfiguration), EMPTIED himself, (by morphing back, in a Ritual of Kenosis that did portray the evacuating of noxious and defiling effects leaving an ascetic form of behavior accompanied with austerities), taking the form (again) of a bond-servant, (a son-of-man) and being made in the likeness of MEN.
    And being found in appearance as a man, He HUMBLED Himself by becoming obedient to the point of DEATH, even death on a cross.

    ...and...
     
  19. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

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    Circular logic.
     
  20. timbo3

    timbo3 Newbie

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    Jesus died on Nisan 14, 33 C.E. as the "passover lamb", which was slaughtered on Abib 14 (March-April, Ex 12:6), that following the Babylonian exile in 539 B.C.E was changed to Nisan.(see Neh 2:1) He was 33 1/2 years old, being put to death "at the half of the (seventieth) week" that ended in 36 C.E.(Dan 9:27) Nisan 14 equates to around the 1st of April, Gregorian Calendar. Thus, going back 6 months, brings us to around the 1st of October, being in the year 2 B.C.E. for Jesus birth.
     
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