When was Jesus born ? In what way did he himself ask that followers remember him?

[cupid dave]

As for the second part of the thread title, the only way Jesus commanded us to remember Him is through the Lord's Supper.

Not that remembering Him in other ways is necessarily bad, but the Lord's Supper is the only way that He specifically sanctioned, which is undoubtedly also the best way to remember Him as well.

Yes, and the way he did this was to pass around the one cup, a fifh cup always set out on Seders.

This was either a strange coincidence, for Jesus to answer the question long set aside until Elijah would appear.

Or it was instruction for them, as Jesus was identifying himself as the Elijah, returned in 32AD

He wanted the Jews to remember him, i.e.; drinking the fifth cup.
He wanted the Jews to remember him, i.e.; answering the age old query.
He wanted the Jews to remember him, i.e.; to drink it, and remember.
He wanted the Jews to remember him, i.e.; as the Jews had long argued over to whether it ought be poured out or drank.

He wanted the Jews to remember him, i.e.; teaching the Rabbi to NOT pour out his blood as the did in 32AD.

 

[Huram Abi]

Except there was no fifth cup tradition at that time.

 

[strangertoo]

... despite the division of men even on something as straightforward as God's law , that law is straightforward, to love one another in order to live happily together and so glorify God as being right about what is good for us all... that God is worthy because He is correct ]and almost all men are wrong to sin against others continually through life]
... so one can understand Jesus' task to begin putting that right , to bring the first few men to understand God being right is for good of all... but to do that he knew the first few would suffer terribly in this world as he did, that they would face death for the truth and msot of them thus die in his name, for what God told mankind... that then is why the death of Jesus is what to celebrate, not his birth , and why the devil obfuscates the simple truth with diverse religious nonsensical ritual ... the 'cup' Jesus drank is symbolic of the death he faced , that is why it is the 'blood' for life is symbolised by blood :-

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

the ritual has been made meaningless by folks no longer understanding that the law of God is simply love of all others which they forget in sin ... it is man that turns this simple rule of following one's natural conscience of love in life into countless senseless interpretations and loses sight that our problem is our sin, that most are not listening to the simple truth of God's law for our happiness ...

Jesus had to die simply because most of us will not yet stop sinning, thus because of our blindness to the fact of god, that loving one another would solve all our problems but the only way we will accept that is by mankind first destroying itself and this earth for purpose of unsharing greed, because our governance and lusts are for more than we need , and so we have less [for none is happy with this way of life, even the rich get paranoid and inside their guilt is a fire, and the poor are disenfranchised and abused for no gain to anyone, only loss]

Jesus then seeks to remind us why he had to die and most turn it into nonsense , but even that he pointed out is inevitable , few will yet understand because of the way men understand [or rather misunderstand] even themsleves, their love, their god ...

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
...
1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus came then to BEGIN the work of destroying sin in man, to bring all to love so men can live happily, but he says that it cannot be done in this earth, his kingdom is not of this world, but that his saints will rule on earth [not just in heaven then is the law of God to be establishhed!]

but then which earth is it ? :-

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Why do men find it so hard to believe what Jesus, Peter, Isaiah are saying here ???

NOT this earth ... maybe because we very clearly are making life on this earth impossible for us , we are creating for ourselves the terrible wrath of God against ALL sinners ... God will take the FEW saints to the new earth, those few who follow Jesus is CEASING from sin so that they love everyone as COMMANDED by their LORD... we know MOST folks, even teh religious, do not even believe they CAN stop sinning, but scripture says folks can STOP and so become loving , just as Jesus showed a wholly loving life is possible , and died for that principle, yet few BELIEVE him, few actually believe in his words, in what he stood for, and even in what he died for ! ... but Jesus knew there would only be a FEW [Rev 7:3-8] and Matthew points out that everyone else dies, is destroyed, [in the 'wrath of God'] - Matt 7:13

So understand then that Jesus and the saints prophesy the utter corruption of MASS religion... God requires but a FEW as kings and priests in the kingdom in the new earth--- what then does that say for the many who make themselves 'priests' of divided religious traditions of men... understand that this mUST be so, Jesus prophesied it explicitly [Rev 20:13 for instance]

Thus if one actually wants to follow Jesus and ACCEPTS the blood [life] sacrifice it entails facing in 'drinking his cup' , symbolised in Passover, then one must be ready to believe what he said and implied about religious traditions of men ...reject the meaningless [most pagan] divided rituals and listen to the [only] COMMAND to love, not sin

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

So please stop debating on basis of mass religion and listen instead to the words of Jesus and the few saints ...

 

[cupid dave]

Except there was no fifth cup tradition at that time.

Though we have only the record of the argument between rabbi expressed in the 3rd century Talmuds, the tradition had been going on for some time and sparked the controversy.
(I suspect the tradition had been very old, since the idea of holding off decisions until Elijah returned would have started at least by 400BC, when Malachi said he would return.)


We can surmise this because the Mishna was the record of those traditions which the Talmud authors referred to.

The early first through early third centuries of the Common Era are commonly referred to as the Mishnaic Period,

This Mishnaic Period was the basis for the corpus of the Mishnah (a third-century Hebrew compilation of traditions
So clearly, the rabbi who wrote of the arguments about the tradition of the fifth cup were referring in the Talmud written around the year 200AD to First 1st Century through Third 3rd Century practices at the Seders.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah

Read pages 186 and 187 here.

Flocks for the Temple were kept in the fields year round at Migdal Edar near Bethlehem.

Clues in the gospels tend to point to Jesus' birth in the fall, probably at or near the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

[cupid dave]

Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah

Read pages 186 and 187 here.

Flocks for the Temple were kept in the fields year round at Migdal Edar near Bethlehem.

Clues in the gospels tend to point to Jesus' birth in the fall, probably at or near the Feast of Tabernacles.

Why not the Spring?

Notice that his birth was attended by angels much in the same way legend had told of the birth of Elijah, 800 years earlier:



13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

 

[cupid dave]

Only your last 2 sentences are true. We already know that the conflict began with Tarfon, Cupid. You KNOW this. Was Tarfon around before or after Jesus? Your claim that Jesus resolved a tradition that wasn't even begun is nonsensical.

And the first instance ever of the cup being referred to as "The Elijah Cup" wasn't until the 18th century.

Tye issue of what became the Elijah Cup was around, though:


]The early first through early third centuries of the Common Era are commonly referred to as the Mishnaic Period

This Mishnaic Period was the basis for the corpus of the Mishnah (a third-century Hebrew compilation of traditions

So clearly, the rabbi who wrote of the arguments about the tradition of the fifth cup were referring in the Talmud written around the year 200AD to First 1st Century through Third 3rd Century practices at. the Seders.


http://www.tzvee.com/Home/the-mishnaic-period

 

[cupid dave]

10th century AD, Cupid.

Anachronisms are for bad fiction.

It isn't an anachronism.

The cup was called the Holy Grail in 32AD.

By the 18th century even the Jews were acknowledging the special cup was tied to Elijah somehow.

 

[cupid dave]

Then why did Jesus say of John the Baptist, "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come." Matthew 11:14

Now notice the context this verse is found in, by reading from verse 7. Undoubtedly Jesus was speaking of John the Baptist, not himself.

Well remeber that the crowds were insisting that Jesus was the king from the house of David who would defeatthe Romans.
And take notice that as it is today, one can not claim to be a messiah or the Elijah or anby such a thing without becoming that object of personal attacks to the contrary and ridiculwe, assigbing such a statement to a mad man.

Neither John nor Jesus could specifically state what role theu were playing in the drama that was unfolding.

So, circled by an insistent crowd of zionist zealots, jesus says, "If"... ifnthey insist then...


But remeber that John had specifically told others he was no prophet, and not the Elijah.


John 1:21
And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elilah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?search=John+1:20-22&version=KJV

 

[Steve Petersen]

Why not the Spring?

Notice that his birth was attended by angels much in the same way legend had told of the birth of Elijah, 800 years earlier:



13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Read this.

 

[cupid dave]

Read this.

Please give me the bottom line.

I am reluctant to hit links that I do not know because viruses can be contaracted.

What is the point you would like to make???

 

[Huram Abi]

Why not the Spring?

Notice that his birth was attended by angels much in the same way legend had told of the birth of Elijah, 800 years earlier:



13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Keep twisting.

 

[Huram Abi]

Tye issue of what became the Elijah Cup was around, though:


]The early first through early third centuries of the Common Era are commonly referred to as the Mishnaic Period

This Mishnaic Period was the basis for the corpus of the Mishnah (a third-century Hebrew compilation of traditions

So clearly, the rabbi who wrote of the arguments about the tradition of the fifth cup were referring in the Talmud written around the year 200AD to First 1st Century through Third 3rd Century practices at. the Seders.


http://www.tzvee.com/Home/the-mishnaic-periodhttp://www.tzvee.com/Home/the-mishnaic-periodhttp://www.tzvee.com/Home/the-mishnaic-period

As I have said repeatedly: after Jesus died. And after Tarfon first introduced the fifth cup.

So your claim that the "rabbi had been arguing about the fifth cup for centuries before Jesus answered the questioned" is, now by your own admission, wrong.

 

[Huram Abi]

Well remeber that the crowds were insisting that Jesus was the king from the house of David who would defeatthe Romans.
And take notice that as it is today, one can not claim to be a messiah or the Elijah or anby such a thing without becoming that object of personal attacks to the contrary and ridiculwe, assigbing such a statement to a mad man.

Neither John nor Jesus could specifically state what role theu were playing in the drama that was unfolding.

So, circled by an insistent crowd of zionist zealots, jesus says, "If"... ifnthey insist then...


But remeber that John had specifically told others he was no prophet, and not the Elijah.


John 1:21
And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elilah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Fortunately Gabriel didn't have that problem when he told John's father, in private, without being asked and without any "ifs', that John was Elijah.

 

[Huram Abi]

It isn't an anachronism.

The cup was called the Holy Grail in 32AD.

By the 18th century even the Jews were acknowledging the special cup was tied to Elijah somehow.

These are 2 different cups.

 

[strangertoo]

Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah

Read pages 186 and 187

Flocks for the Temple were kept in the fields year round at Migdal Edar near Bethlehem.

Clues in the gospels tend to point to Jesus' birth in the fall, probably at or near the Feast of Tabernacles.[/quote]

make your point here please, folks can't be expected to buy a book just to understand your point of view...

 

[strangertoo]

Flocks for the Temple were kept in the fields year round at Migdal Edar near Bethlehem.

... but shepherds did not watch their flocks through the night except at lambing time ... the point is that it is bitterly cold in the Holy Land at night in Winter, shepherds need a very good reason indeed to miss their sleep all night and sit around freezing watching their flocks... the only time this is systematically done is lambing time, in the Spring ...

... the other evidence for Spring is the 'Lamb of God' analogy and the timing of Passover ... lambs are indeed born in the Spring ...

 

[Huram Abi]

John the Baptist was born in the spring, and Jesus 6 months thereafter.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah

Read pages 186 and 187

Flocks for the Temple were kept in the fields year round at Migdal Edar near Bethlehem.

Clues in the gospels tend to point to Jesus' birth in the fall, probably at or near the Feast of Tabernacles.

make your point here please, folks can't be expected to buy a book just to understand your point of view... [/QUOTE]

The link was to public domain copy of book you can read online.

 

[cupid dave]

Keep twisting.

You are more than twisting.

Clearly, both Elijah and Jesus have advocates who argue three separate cases.
Some say they were born miraculously.
Others that they were born of one tribe, while another claim a different tribe.


Elijah = 1) miraculous birth; 2) a levite; 3) a Benjaminite

Jesus = 1) virgin birth; 2) a Judahite; 3) a Levite