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When was Jesus born ? In what way did he himself ask that followers remember him?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by strangertoo, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. strangertoo

    strangertoo sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

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    ... according to scripture, Jesus was born at a time of year when shepherds watched their flocks by night IN THE FIELDS :-

    Luke 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

    - just as in those times flocks are kept INDOORS in Winter in the Holy Land ... in other words the fact that the shepherds and flocks were in the fields at night PROVES it was LAMBING time in the Spring when Jesus was born , not mid-winter ...

    the LAMB of God was born at the start of the holy year still kept by Israel as set out in scripture for all who realise there is but ONE God of all men, not many gods of the many sects and denomination decreed by men, not God ... because there are countless differences in traditions of men we know they must almost all, perhaps all , be wrong, the bible PROVES they are indeed all wrong , none keep the right days ...

    the irony about Xmas though is that Jesus never had an annual birthday anyway, that is a pagan astrological [Babylonian] tradition not kept by Israel ... just see how far human religious tradition has strayed from the truth of scripture ...

    Let Jesus have the last say on this, what did he say folks who followed him truly should keep in memory of him ?

    Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

    NOT a weekly ritual, but the annual celebration of Passover :-

    Matthew 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

    so the LAMB of God [was born and] died in the Spring, at Passover , not at Xmas , nor at Easter... and so very few indeed do what Jesus said was the only way to remember him ...

    Jesus was lamb of God sacrificed for the few who follow him in this world [Matt 7:13-14] so that the many can be saved later [Rev 7:9-10] who are destroyed in this life [Matt 7:13] ... that is why his followers celebrate his death at Passover as he asked, it is the meaningful way to do so which he himself chose for good reason... those who disovbey him as Lord obviously cannot rightly claim he is their lord ... a 'lord' is someone whom one obeys, as Jesus also said clearly ... we see that few already obey Jesus as Lord and that this too was destined to be true, prophesied ... but know then what it means for the countless many who keep Xmas and Easter and harvest festival , adapted pagan god memorials, in place of the memorial days proclaimed by God for His purpose in the few ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
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  2. Senecharnix

    Senecharnix The Emissary

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    Yeshua was probably born around midnight on May 26, 7BC. Some so-called experts think he was probably born in late March or early 6BC. They base their claims on astrological aspects that they believe the Magi would have honored as meaning a Jewsih king-to-be had been born in the Holy Land. According ot others, the May 26 7BC date is more likely the right date....
     
  3. The Gnostic

    The Gnostic Newbie

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    I say he was born in late spring,most likely at the end of March.Whereas some say it was around the year 7 B.C.,I am more inclined to place the date around 3 B.C.

    Most likely we will never truly know the exact date of his birth.All we will ever have is our own personal beliefs but I do not believe it was December 25th.
     
  4. cupid dave

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    Christians do not know that every Passover the Jews have always set out an extra wine cup.
    This tradition was associated with Elijah since the rabbi had argued for centuries before Jesus in regard to whether the Elijah Cup of wine should be discarded or drunk.

    When Jesus answered this age old question by offering the wine cup to al at the table he was identifying hiself as The Elijah who had returned.

    Consider these facts:


    Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead.

    Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.

    Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain

    Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses.

    Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel

    Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.

    Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb

    Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days.

    Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water

    Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended

    Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.

    Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities.

    Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead.

    Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other

    Both asked that this "cup" be taken from them.

    Both had miraculous births

    Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd

    Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.[/

    Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter
     
  5. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

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    That is a lie, Cupid.
     
  6. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest

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    The Jewish Encyclopedia explains the same thing pretty much:

    Elijah's Cup (koso shel Eliyahu)
    In the Talmudic literature, Elijah would visit rabbis to help solve particularly difficult legal problems.
    Malachi had cited Elijah as the harbinger of the eschaton.
    Thus, when confronted with reconciling impossibly conflicting laws or rituals, the rabbis would set aside any decision until Elijah comes.[32] One such decision was whether the Passover seder required four or five cups of wine.
    Each serving of wine corresponds to "four expressions of redemption" in Exodus:
    Elijah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
    E2.80.99s_Cup_.28koso_shel_Eliyahu.29
     
  7. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

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    We've been over this. The lie is not in what transpired but WHEN. You know the inclusion of Elijah in the tradition is late (10th century AD) and that the argument was not until after Jesus was already dead. You KNOW this.

    Yet, you still continue to say "every Passover the 1)Jews have always set out an extra wine cup. This tradition was associated with Elijah 2) since the rabbi had argued for centuries before Jesus in regard to whether the Elijah Cup of wine should be discarded or drunk."

    Since you know that these things have not always been a part of passover and happened after Jesus, you must be lying.
     
  8. eachallberg

    eachallberg N/a

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    Peace be to you,
    First.

    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
    (Col 1:15)

    To people he seemed to have born from human, same motif Paul uses in 1 Corin 9:20-22.

    Its offensive to put a x in place of Christ's name, I hope you have more respect than that.

    I like your partial discretion though. Annual celebrations are pagan because of the astrological tone. We should celebrate Christ daily as we die daily, and Christ is alive in us (1 Corin 15:31).

    Love.

    I thought daily?
    Acts 2:46

    Maybe Christ never died, although maybe it looked like it.

    Jesus laid his life down for everyone (John 3:16).

    The author of Matthew and Luke have different versions of the entrance to eternal life. One calls it a gate, the other a door.

    With so much discretion of the meaning of Christ as, "Lord". I tell you the truth I can't call him Lord. But can you?

    Do you love Christ more than your family, friends, or anyone else?

    Do you have no possessions?

    Have you left your home for Christ's sake?

    If anybody can answer yes to all three of these questions than I consider that person able to call Jesus Christ their Lord and savior.

    If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

    Peace and grace be to all of you.
     
  9. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest

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    We HAVE been over it.

    The fifth cup problem was argued long before 32AD.

    So complex were the arguments on both sides that LONG before 32AD, the rabbi agreed they must wait for Elijah to officiate.

    Elijah, aka Christ did so and we call it Eucharist.

    Every Passover at every table, that full glass of wine had people wondering whether t wqs right to drink it or discard it, and always the matter of waiting for Elijah was mentioned.

    This question existed for so long that the Cup gradually became special and rather ornate even called The Elijah Cup.

    The Jews still differ today on the matter and still await Elijah to answer them.
     
  10. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

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    Only your last 2 sentences are true. We already know that the conflict began with Tarfon, Cupid. You KNOW this. Was Tarfon around before or after Jesus? Your claim that Jesus resolved a tradition that wasn't even begun is nonsensical.

    And the first instance ever of the cup being referred to as "The Elijah Cup" wasn't until the 18th century.
     
  11. cupid dave

    cupid dave Guest

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    I doubt that the first incident of th cupo being called the Elijah cup really coincids withthe first written use of thatterm as far as we can tell.
    But that is not the issue at all.

    The ancient issue concerning five cups and whether to drink or discard was the lijah issue that awaited an answer.

    That was answered by Christ in 32AD.

    That cup is called the Eucharist chalice by the Christians, but it still is the same fifth cup and the same answer is to drink it.
     
  12. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

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    10th century AD, Cupid.

    Anachronisms are for bad fiction.
     
  13. Huram Abi

    Huram Abi Guest

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    The act Jesus performed when he said "Do THIS in remembrance of me" was not the entire passover, but a specific station of it.

    The 3rd Sedar cup of the passover was being performed where the men come together to share bread, bless the wine, and pass around and drink from the same cup.

    The 3rd cup represents the third expression of deliverence, "I will redeem."

    So we aren't really intended to focus on his death or life, except that both remind us of the promise made that comes from his death; the promise of redemption.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2012
  14. JoJo50

    JoJo50 Trying to do Jehovah's will

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    you Go! :thumbsup:
     
  15. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Jesus promised all have redemption Revelation 5:13 ? NO, Jesus said ALL that recognize God and him and that praise and honor him will be redeemed.
    Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    And that was written to those who already were redeemed!
    Rev 5:9
    And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
     
  16. strangertoo

    strangertoo sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

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    As your own quote of Jesus' revelation states ... EVERY creature will [voluntarily] accept Jesus in the end... so all will be saved , but not until all come around to accepting the law of God, to love all folks and thus show one's love of God...

    Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    Isaiah 50:2 Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver?

    Consider whom the few firstfruits saved [Rev 7:3-8] will rule over in the kingdom come, there is only the resurrected many unjust who later flock to New Jerusalem according to Revelation, after the resurrection of the unjust then and before judgment is passed on whose acts are loving and who is still a sinner against others ... note that only the few are saved by grace, the many destroyed in this earth [Matt 7:13] are saved from hell and death by works of love after resurrection according to Jesus own words of revelation :-

    Revelation 20:13 ...death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    again note that there is no-one else to rule by love in the kingdom come except the many destroyed in the wrath of God, who sleep in death a thousand years until the kingdom is ready for the salvation of the many [Rev 7:9-10] promised by Jesus for later than the salvation of the few saints at his return... again note Matt 7:13-14, the many are destroyed and few saved in this life . but Jesus promises the many of all nations are saved later [Rev 7:9-10] , not just the few firstfruit saints who are just the rulers in the kingdom come...
     
  17. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Sorry, Only those who accept Christ but not all people or all nations.
    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

    Psa 118:10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I destroy them.

    Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    10 ...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
    11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

    Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

    Jer 25:31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
    32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
    33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

    Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

    3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
    Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
    18 For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.
    19 Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
    20 Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.
    Psa 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
    5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
    6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
    7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
    8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
    Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

    14
    And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
     
  18. Seeking His Face

    Seeking His Face Guest

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    As for the second part of the thread title, the only way Jesus commanded us to remember Him is through the Lord's Supper. Not that remembering Him in other ways is necessarily bad, but the Lord's Supper is the only way that He specifically sanctioned, which is undoubtedly also the best way to remember Him as well.
     
  19. Seeking His Face

    Seeking His Face Guest

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    Then why did Jesus say of John the Baptist, "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come." Matthew 11:14

    Now notice the context this verse is found in, by reading from verse 7. Undoubtedly Jesus was speaking of John the Baptist, not himself.
     
  20. strangertoo

    strangertoo sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8

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    the lamb of God was sacrificed at Passover to save the firstborn of Israel [Rev 7:3-8] , the firstfruit saints born to reign in the kingdom come on earth :
    Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    so observe that the kingdom requires few priests and kings and consider who can be the many they rule , serve, minister to... then you may begin to see what Jesus is saying about the kingdom being progressive, that it grows like a tree from one seed [him] ... thus Matthew tells us how FEW are not DESTROYED with this earth with the MANY [Matt 7:13-14] , so we know FEW are saved at Jesus' return and Jesus tells us how many [Rev 7:3-8] are sealed , justified by grace of the new covenant, explicitly with the House of Judah ['Jews'] and the House of Israel [non-Jewish long-forgotten Israel scattered by God worldwide long before the Jews were, a forgotten nation , but God has not forgotten His promise that they will too be kings and priests of the kingdom] :-
    Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    This even the Jews have covered up, although written in their law, that the House of Israel is a greater nation than the Jews and the promise of God is to both nations , as Jesus says , he came ONLY FOR the House of Israel, not even for the Jews yet :-

    Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    and 1Peter 2:9-10 confirms the ancient truth of the Jewish Torah :-

    1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    there simply is only ONE holy nation who are no longer a people and who are destined to contribute the royal priesthood of kings to the kingdom come, it is NOT teh Jews although some few will be Jews of the tribes of Judah, Levi, Benjamin [Rev 7:3-8] , but the MOST firstfruits are of the lost House of Israel whom God scattered worldwide but whom He recalls and forgives ,EXPLICITLY them, inthe new covenant - read it! -Heb 8:8-12, Jer 31:31-34 ... confirm what God says then , that it is addressed to Israel but only to a remnant few who love all men in obedience to God's law , just 144, 000 out of perhaps over 12 billion who ever lived... and never was so much owed to so FEW by so MANY , but Jesus is the one who calls them out from amongst the gentiles :-

    Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Zechariah 8:13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.

    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    No-one then can understand scripture then without knowing that the House of Israel are a lost antion, not a people, not the Jews , and no-one but God knows who their descendants are today, mixed in with the gentiles:-

    Deuteronomy 4:27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

    Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

    ... understand then that Ephraim led the House of Israel and ceased to be a people, but God also promised that they would be forgiven and called back to be priests and kings in the kingdom come, that is the actual new covenant , read it and weep at how men have lied about what it says in religious tradition, even the Jews will not admit its truth written by Jeremiah , their own prophet in their own law -Jer 31:31-34 - BECAUSE Jewish tardition is to pretend the House of Israel does not exist [because Israel was split into two nations, the Jews and the House of Israel, over beliefs ...

    Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

    Jews cannot abide this promise of God in their own 'Law and Prophets' but it cannot fail ....
    and Christians mostly ignore it too - so one can see why only few find the way of truth [Matt 7:14]... and remember that God requires only a few to be kings and priests in his kingdom, the MANY are first destroyed [Matt 7:13] as sinners , in the 'wrath of God', but as Jesus states, the many are later SAVED too [Rev 7:9-10] ... thus we know the many are saved after the resurrection of the unjust , BY the ministry of the FEW in the kingdom, but as Jesus says, the kingdom is NOT in this world although it is one earth, just not this earth then, but the new earth where righteousness of love rules :-

    2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

    SO that is why Jesus said to remember him at Passover , not Easter, not Xmas, not any of these pagan days, but because he is the lamb of god sacrificed for the FIRSTFRUIT saints OF ALL NATIONS [including some Jews] but only 144,000 [Jude:1:14 confirms literally only tens of thousands of saints from this earth with Jesus, the number is not symbolic as some claim] ... the FEW who will CREATE the kingdom in the new earth where the MANY are saved LATER [Rev 7:9-10]who are destroyed in this earth[Matt 7:13]

    that is WHY Jesus said to remember him that way because MOST have forgotten what Passover prophesies about his death for ALL, but first for the fEW required to BUILD the kingdom come in the new earth, a thousand years before the many are resurrected FROM HELL to WORK for their salvation :-

    Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    Thus again we see that the new covenant is EXPLICIT in saying it is with the Jews [House of Judah] and the House of Israel - read it yourself in YOUR bible, Heb 8:8-12, BECAUSE God has made promises but we do not knwo who are the House of Israel's descendants todayy, nor do we know which few Jews are to be saints ... no-one knows but God who will be kings and priests in the kingdom, but we know the kingdom NOW is ONLY in the hearts and minds of saints who OBEY God and love as Jesus commanded ALL who follow him... MOST do NOT obey God, mst are still sinners against fellow man , FEW then will be first because that is what Gd requires for His plan of PROGRESSIVE salvation, first the few and then the many are cONVINCED to love by example of the , but ONLY after DEATH as wages of sin and the resurrection of the unjust PROVES the love of God for ALL men, love includes forgiveness and the kingdom is the place for that forgiveness of the many when the REPENT this life of sin completely, just as the very few saints do now ... one is not forgiven until one STOPS sinning , most now do not STOP :-

    1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Jesus thus confirms that he will NOT take ANY that are still sinners ... all have sinned [excepting Jesus showed one does not have to sin] but a FEW find the way [matt 7:14] to STOP sinning, these are the FEW God requires for beginning the kingdom, His true priests and kings to rule under Jesus, but not NOW , not HERE ...so where does that leave the self-ordained divided sinner priesthoods of mankind's traditions in religion?

    The bible, if studied reveals the lies to the MANY and why FEW find the way in a world run by lies, by Satan even, just as Jesus said it would be... think on it and study God's word in greater depth to find the truth if one wants it enough...
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
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