WHEN WAS ISRAEL SET ASIDE ?

[Guojing]

So how were people saved before Paul?

By grace thru faith, like Hebrews 11 stated. But they have to show faith by believing in the revelation that God showed them at various times and it may involve work too.

For example, Noah had to build an ark, Rahab had to hide spies, Abel had to offer a "better sacrifice" etc

 

[PROPHECYKID]

By grace thru faith, like Hebrews 11 stated. But they have to show faith by believing in the revelation that God showed them at various times and it may involve work too.

For example, Noah had to build an ark, Rahab had to hide spies, Abel had to offer a "better sacrifice" etc

Well they were all being obedient. Don't be have to be obedient too?

 

[Danoh]

Paul was the first person to be saved under the grace dispensation. Here is my argument

Mark 3:28-29 (NLT) 28 “I tell you the truth, all sin and blasphemy can be forgiven, 29 but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This is a sin with eternal consequences.”

One might be curious, at least I was, on how exactly Saul was saved. If the Jews that stoned Stephen, blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, which Jesus said was an unforgivable sin, how in the world can God justify Saul? Remember, Paul was consenting to the stoning of Stephen. The latter was full of the Holy Spirit. By rejecting and stoning him, Paul was actually also committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I believed the dispensation of grace began during Stephen’s stoning. Under the grace dispensation, there is no longer any unforgivable sin. Jesus’s proclamation of the unforgiveable sin was under the law dispensation, and when God decided to save Saul, he could do that righteously because of the change in dispensation.

The key verse is what Paul reflected in his letter to Timothy,

1 Timothy 1:15-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

A pattern is the first of more to come. Paul is the “pattern” for us members of the Church, the Body of Christ; the Apostle Paul being the “pattern” means he was the first member of the Church, the Body of Christ. He was the first to be saved under the dispensation of grace. Even though he blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, he was forgiven because the dispensation has changed into grace.

Thus, the Gospel of Grace by which we were and are saved now, is the same Gospel message that saved the Apostle Paul. In short, after the stoning of Stephen, the gospel of the kingdom was put on hold, and the gospel of grace became the gospel of which everyone is to be saved under.

This was confirmed by Peter's proclamation at the Jerusalem council in Act 15
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

This proclamation, by Peter, is very significant to me. The Council was first discussing that the Gentiles must be saved "as the Jews are", which is thru Mosaic Law.

But now, Peter is saying, the Jews must now be saved "as the Gentiles are".

Great post.

Rom. 5:8

 

[Guojing]

Well they were all being obedient. Don't be have to be obedient too?

But under this grace dispensation, we are obedient by ceasing from all works and trusting that Jesus work is sufficient for salvation and justification.

The ot Saints did not enjoy that

 

[PROPHECYKID]

But under this grace dispensation, we are obedient by ceasing from all works and trusting that Jesus work is sufficient for salvation and justification.

The ot Saints did not enjoy that

What? You have just redefined obedience. So you're saying that because of grace there should not no works? We should now cease from all works? You look at things through the lens of "what must I do to be saved", well guess what, man was never saved by works.

 

[Guojing]

What? You have just redefined obedience. So you're saying that because of grace there should not no works? We should now cease from all works? You look at things through the lens of "what must I do to be saved", well guess what, man was never saved by works.

For your salvation, yes. But it does not mean it will not benefit you if you do works, there will be rewards in heaven waiting for you based on your works.

But in the past, as Hebrews 11 stated, many of the OT saints had to show their faith by their works.

Noah had to build an ark. Rahab had to hide spies. Abel had to offer the correct sacrifice.

For example, if Abel merely believe in God but did not offer a blood sacrifice, he would still have perished like Cain did.

As for Abraham, he had to believe, not about Jesus dying for his sins and rising again for his justification, but he had to believe that God will make him a "father of many", despite his advanced age. (Genesis 15:6)

Hope that is clearer the difference between what they had to believe in or/and do, versus what we have to believe in under the current grace dispensation.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

For your salvation, yes. But it does not mean it will not benefit you if you do works, there will be rewards in heaven waiting for you based on your works.

But in the past, as Hebrews 11 stated, many of the OT saints had to show their faith by their works.

Noah had to build an ark. Rahab had to hide spies. Abel had to offer the correct sacrifice.

For example, if Abel merely believe in God but did not offer a blood sacrifice, he would still have perished like Cain did.

As for Abraham, he had to believe, not about Jesus dying for his sins and rising again for his justification, but he had to believe that God will make him a "father of many", despite his advanced age. (Genesis 15:6)

Hope that is clearer the difference between what they had to believe in or/and do, versus what we have to believe in under the current grace dispensation.

Faith is always demonstrated through works. All of those things the OT saints did, they were asked to do by God. It showed faith but also obedience. We also have to demonstrate faith by our works as this is just naturally what happens. If you have faith in God but have no works, is your faith real?

 

[Guojing]

Faith is always demonstrated through works. All of those things the OT saints did, they were asked to do by God. It showed faith but also obedience. We also have to demonstrate faith by our works as this is just naturally what happens. If you have faith in God but have no works, is your faith real?

The difference is that Jesus has now come and finished all the works required on our behalf. We just need to believe that he has, and we are saved. We no longer need to do works to show to God that our faith is real, that is honoring what his Son did for us.

That is something that none of the OT saints have, and they envy us for that, at least King David did if you believe what Paul stated about him in Romans 4:5-6.

 

[Dan Perez]

Well nowhere in the bible explicitly says that but that is where reasoning comes in. In the old testament, weren't there instances of non-jews being "grafted" into Israel? In fact, Jesus came through the lineage of Ruth who was not an Israelite.There was also a woman Rahab who was of the land of Jericho I believe. So the idea that outside people could be "grafted in" is an idea from the beginning because God's grace is for all people. So having said all that, the New Covenant is available to any member of the house of Israel which consists of all who believe.

Hi and in Heb 8:8 the New Covenant is only to Israel and to Judah < whta say you !!

dan p

 

[Stone-n-Steel]

If Israel has been set aside , was WATER BAPTISM and ANIMAL SACRIFICES also set aside ??

I believe the water was a required act to show faith until Paul (1 Cor 1:17). The animal issue was hadled at the cross (Heb 7:27).

 

[Dan Perez]

I believe the water was a required act to show faith until Paul (1 Cor 1:17). The animal issue was hadled at the cross (Heb 7:27).

Hi and have never seen a verse WATER was to show faith , an dplease show where that verse is ??

dan p

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Hi and in Heb 8:8 the New Covenant is only to Israel and to Judah < whta say you !!

dan p

Well I said that myself not to long ago. In the Old Testament who did Israel contain? It was made up of physical israelites but also those who joined themselves to the camp of Israel. In other words, they were grafted in. Its no different in the new testament. All who is in Christ is Abraham's seed.

 

[Dan Perez]

Well I said that myself not to long ago. In the Old Testament who did Israel contain? It was made up of physical israelites but also those who joined themselves to the camp of Israel. In other words, they were grafted in. Its no different in the new testament. All who is in Christ is Abraham's seed.

Hi and in Acts 2:10 the proper term is Proselytes , and have to do away with his Gentile heritage and put himself 100% under the Law of Moses and had to be Circumcised !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Hi brother Dan, read the scriptures provided to you. Gentiles BELIEVERS are grafted in after the death and resurrection of JESUS. All those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (the true church) are God's ISRAEL according to God's WORD under the NEW COVENANT.

Nope.

It is unsaved Gentiles that are grafted in.

In other words, ALL Gentiles, Acts 13:46, are now in the place of DIRECT access to God and or DIRECT blessing from Him that the NATION Israel ALONE had once occupied, Matt. 15:24; John 4:22; etc.

(Including unsaved Israelites as Uncircumcision WITH the Gentiles, see end of Romans chapter 2 and into Romans chapter 3)

Until God cuts this present acess off and things head towards His proceeding to "make a short work upon the Earth" in His Wrath, prior to and during the Lord's Return to the Nation Israel, Romans chapters 9 thru 11; which is why the warning to Gentiles in Romans 11 to "be not high minded, but fear."

Because there will come a point when God's DIRECT offer of blessing (salvation) to ALL Gentiles will be "cut off" by Him, Romans 11:25; etc.

2 Tim. 2:15-18.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Hi and many do not believe Israel was set aside as a NATION !

There were 70 years from when Jesus was born and when the temple was tore down and Israel was cut off as a nation. Some people feel they still have 7 years left. Daniel talks about most of this. He talks about 70 weeks which adds up to 490 years. Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

 

[joshua 1 9]

100% under the Law of Moses

The law contains 613 commandment. Not all of them are in the Bible. They add to the teachings of Moses. This is why Jesus says: "2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them" Matthew 23