WHEN WAS CHRIST CRUCIFIED?

Yeshua HaDerekh

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John does not say that it was a great Sabbath. The adjective in that statement modifies "day," not "Sabbath." Great was the day of that Sabbath. And the 16th is a great and important day.

παρασκευὴ is used in John, Friday. No it was the 15th...the weekly Sabbath AND the 1st day of Hag HaMatzot.
 
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AFrazier

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No I am not. I am understanding it within its context. It is how Paul and John understood it and the prophets foretold it. You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with them...no bone broken, drew lots for His garments, etc... fulfillments...
But not drained of blood into a bowl. Blood not sprinkled on the altar fire. Remainder of body not burned. Not roasted.

If one thing has to be exact, then all things have to be exact. You don't get to pick and choose. And neither Paul nor John specified a day. The closest inference is John saying the priests wanted to eat the Passover. But that's just the Passover of the 15th—the Haggigah—as a matter of context.

The actual context is that on the afternoon leading up to the last supper, it was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed, and his disciples asked where they should prepare for him to keep the festival. He sent Peter and John to make ready for them, and the two disciples went and made ready the passover.

THAT is the context. Until you address this reality, nothing you say holds any water.
 
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AFrazier

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παρασκευὴ is used in John, Friday. No it was the 15th...the weekly Sabbath AND the 1st day of Hag HaMatzot.
I didn't say the day following the crucifixion was anything other than the Saturday Sabbath. But that Saturday was the 16th, not the 15th, per Mark and Luke.

Argue all you want. You cannot get around those two passages with your theological symbolism. He died on the 15th. The weekly Sabbath was the 16th.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I didn't say the day following the crucifixion was anything other than the Saturday Sabbath. But that Saturday was the 16th, not the 15th, per Mark and Luke.

Argue all you want. You cannot get around those two passages with your theological symbolism. He died on the 15th. The weekly Sabbath was the 16th.

The 15th was the feast "Sabbath", the 1st of Hag haMatzot, not the 16th...argue all you want, it will not change that fact...Mark 14:2 says they did NOT want to arrest Him during the Feast for fear of a riot...you have Him being arrested on the 15th Sabbath...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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But not drained of blood into a bowl. Blood not sprinkled on the altar fire. Remainder of body not burned. Not roasted.

If one thing has to be exact, then all things have to be exact. You don't get to pick and choose. And neither Paul nor John specified a day. The closest inference is John saying the priests wanted to eat the Passover. But that's just the Passover of the 15th—the Haggigah—as a matter of context.

The actual context is that on the afternoon leading up to the last supper, it was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed, and his disciples asked where they should prepare for him to keep the festival. He sent Peter and John to make ready for them, and the two disciples went and made ready the passover.

THAT is the context. Until you address this reality, nothing you say holds any water.

I already did...it was a Seudah haMafsekhet...so in your opinion it is either all or nothing regarding fulfillments...or only those fulfillments that relate only to the theory you believe? Did the Prophets say He needed to be roasted? You will never convince me...
 
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AFrazier

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The 15th was the feast "Sabbath", the 1st of Hag haMatzot, not the 16th...argue all you want, it will not change that fact...Mark 14:2 says they did NOT want to arrest Him during the Feast for fear of a riot...you have Him being arrested on the 15th Sabbath...
No I don't. I have no idea what you're going on about. Jesus was arrested on the night of the Passover. I have never said otherwise. You just have your days confused because you are trying to date the historical events by symbolic theology instead of facts.
 
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AFrazier

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I already did...it was a Seudah haMafsekhet...so in your opinion it is either all or nothing regarding fulfillments...or only those fulfillments that relate only to the theory you believe? Did the Prophets say He needed to be roasted? You will never convince me...
Acknowledged. Yeshua HaDerekh will never be convinced that the disciples came to Jesus on the 14th day of the month, the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed. I acknowledge that you refuse to give any credence to two passages of scripture.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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No I don't. I have no idea what you're going on about. Jesus was arrested on the night of the Passover. I have never said otherwise. You just have your days confused because you are trying to date the historical events by symbolic theology instead of facts.

Yes you do. You have him being arrested, put on trail and crucified on the 15th...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Acknowledged. Yeshua HaDerekh will never be convinced that the disciples came to Jesus on the 14th day of the month, the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed. I acknowledge that you refuse to give any credence to two passages of scripture.

No, Frazier fails to prove his case, won't answer inconvenient problems with his scenario and has to twist and ignore scriptures and prophecies to try and make his scenario all work out...

Yeshua said: Do not think I came to abolish the Torah and the Nevi'im, I have not come to abolish but to FULFILL"
 
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Yes you do. You have him being arrested, put on trail and crucified on the 15th...
By calendar date, yes, that is where the Gospel authors put the arrest, trial, and crucifixion. The 14th becomes the 15th at sunset. So in a technical sense, he was arrested, tried, and crucified on the 15th. You have a problem with what the Gospels are saying?
 
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AFrazier

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No, Frazier fails to prove his case, won't answer inconvenient problems with his scenario and has to twist and ignore scriptures and prophecies to try and make his scenario all work out...

Yeshua said: Do not think I came to abolish the Torah and the Nevi'im, I have not come to abolish but to FULFILL"
Mark and Luke. That's all. Answer to what they said, or just drop it. You're wrong.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Mark and Luke. That's all. Answer to what they said, or just drop it. You're wrong.

Already proved you wrong...too many twists to force events into your theory and unanswered questions from you...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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By calendar date, yes, that is where the Gospel authors put the arrest, trial, and crucifixion. The 14th becomes the 15th at sunset. So in a technical sense, he was arrested, tried, and crucified on the 15th. You have a problem with what the Gospels are saying?

I have a problem with what YOU say, not with the scriptures. You are oblivious to even why that could never happen on the 15th...
 
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AFrazier

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Already proved you wrong...too many twists to force events into your theory and unanswered questions from you...
You haven't proved anything. You haven't answered to what Mark and Luke plainly say. No twists or forcing of anything.

And feel free to name one question or statement of substance that I haven't answered.
 
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AFrazier

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I have a problem with what YOU say, not with the scriptures. You are oblivious to even why that could never happen on the 15th...
Negative. I'm just quoting the scriptures directly. You have a problem with what Mark and Luke are saying. They say that the afternoon preceding the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed. You are disagreeing with that. That's not my error. It's yours. The last supper followed the afternoon of the 14th, unless you have an argument to explain how some other day is the first day of unleavened bread, or an argument to show the passover being killed on a day other than the 14th.

Just give up. You can't win this. You're wrong. You will continue to be wrong.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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You haven't proved anything. You haven't answered to what Mark and Luke plainly say. No twists or forcing of anything.

And feel free to name one question or statement of substance that I haven't answered.

Sure I have. You still havent answered regarding all problems on the 15th...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Negative. I'm just quoting the scriptures directly. You have a problem with what Mark and Luke are saying. They say that the afternoon preceding the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed. You are disagreeing with that. That's not my error. It's yours. The last supper followed the afternoon of the 14th, unless you have an argument to explain how some other day is the first day of unleavened bread, or an argument to show the passover being killed on a day other than the 14th.

Just give up. You can't win this. You're wrong. You will continue to be wrong.

So am I. No, that is YOUR interpretation, which is wrong. That is the only thing you have to hang your hat on...many problems with the 15th and you cant even see them...oh well, the blind fall in the ditch.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Negative. I'm just quoting the scriptures directly. You have a problem with what Mark and Luke are saying. They say that the afternoon preceding the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed. You are disagreeing with that. That's not my error. It's yours. The last supper followed the afternoon of the 14th, unless you have an argument to explain how some other day is the first day of unleavened bread, or an argument to show the passover being killed on a day other than the 14th.

Just give up. You can't win this. You're wrong. You will continue to be wrong.

It is not the scriptures you post, I have a problem with your interpretation of them...I could say the same thing you do but at the beginning of the 14th...after sunset...no leavening, 1st day...the day the lambs were killed...that would solve your problem, yet you would still have all the problems your scenario has on the 15th.
Shavuah Tov
 
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AFrazier

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It is not the scriptures you post, I have a problem with your interpretation of them...I could say the same thing you do but at the beginning of the 14th...after sunset...no leavening, 1st day...the day the lambs were killed...that would solve your problem, yet you would still have all the problems your scenario has on the 15th.
Shavuah Tov
You're talking in circles again.

Is there some day other than the 14th that can be considered the "first day" of unleavened bread?

Is there some day other than the 14th that can be considered the day "when the passover must be killed"?

You keep criticizing my "interpretation" of these things. I don't see the error.

YOU are wanting to put this event on the 13th. But the 13th isn't the first day of unleavened bread by any stretch of the imagination. Nor is the 13th the day when the passover must be killed. That would have been illegal.

THAT is what Mark and Luke both say the afternoon leading up to the last supper was. The "first day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed."

If you have a different "interpretation" to that, feel free to express it and provide source material to support it.

As for my "15th" problems, I have answered every single objection you have raised. You just don't like my answers. He was tried following the passover feast. The Talmud, in Sanhedrin, says that was legal, just not common, because in a capital case resulting in a death sentence, the sentence had to be carried out within twenty-four hours. The holiday Sabbath of the 15th prevented that. But in this case, the guilty verdict in a capital case was brought to the Romans to have them carry out the death sentence. That's why they had him crucified instead of stoned for blasphemy.

You said that the Jews weren't allowed to execute anyone, but Pontius Pilate gave them permission. He told them to see to it. They said they could not. That's because it was the 15th, and a day of rest. Later, Stephen was stoned to death for blasphemy. Numerous times, the people tried to stone Jesus. They clearly had no impediment to executing him themselves, except that it was the 15th.

As for what day the lambs were killed versus Jesus versus the 15th ... just because you want to apply theological symbolism to Christ's death, it doesn't change the historical fact of what day it was. Mark and Luke are explicit in stating precisely what day it was when they celebrated the passover. Our symbolic passover or not, he still died on the 15th.

Whatever your other objections were, I don't recall them at the moment. Feel free to list them. I'm happy to answer to them.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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YOU are wanting to put this event on the 13th. But the 13th isn't the first day of unleavened bread The Talmud, in Sanhedrin, says that was legal, just not common, because in a capital case resulting in a death sentence, the sentence had to be carried out within twenty-four hours. The holiday Sabbath of the 15th prevented that. But in this case, the guilty verdict in a capital case was brought to the Romans to have them carry out the death sentence. That's why they had him crucified instead of stoned for blasphemy.

I have never said anything about the 13th. That is in your imagination like everything else. BTW, the Talmud also states it is "illegal" to hold a trial at night. Your scenario discounts almost any and all fulfillments of prophecy, yet Yeshua Himself said that He came to fulfill...
 
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