When the Choir dominates the liturgy...

[GoingByzantine]

So there is a really lovely old Orthodox church in my region, with a rich history that spans more than a century. It used to be a a very vibrant and active community, as dozens of inspiring photographs in the church hall can attest to. Unfortunately, something seems to have gone horribly wrong. I have attended Divine Liturgy at this church 3 times now, and the pews sat about 80-90% empty each time I went.

The remaining parishioners are very friendly, the priest is charismatic and engaging, and the building is beautiful. "There is really no good reason why this church is so 'abandoned'", I thought and then during the middle of the liturgy I had a revelation. I was not singing, and I was not engaged, and a brief glance around the room revealed that nobody else was either. Forgive me brothers and sisters, but I am ashamed to say that I felt myself falling asleep near the tail end of service the last time I went to this church, which is COMPLETELY out of character for me.

The choir at this church fully dominates the liturgy, they sing from atop a protestant style choir loft, and they are so loud and pitchy that none of the lay people can follow along. Forgive me again, I do not want to be uncharitable, but to me it seems as though they were acting more like "performers" and less like "song leaders". If this church would breakup the choir, and bring the members down among the rest of the congregation, I think that it might help them revitalize their community. Has anyone else ever experienced something like this before? Is this a common phenomena in Orthodoxy?

 

[AKBlessings]

Never heard of this before. There is a church about an hour from us with a choir that basically engulfs the rest of the parishioners. But they are amazing and they are standing with the rest of the people so as to encourage everyone to sing along. I love it. But it would be another story if they were not a great choir. It would be interesting to know if others there feel the same as you. Do you have any relationship with the priest, where you could politely relay your concern? Not that one persons opinion would change things, but perhaps others have said something before and it just takes more people speaking up.

 

[Beloved Pure]

Yes.
20 years ago we had 12-20 in the choir and 75-150 in the pews.
Today we have 15 in the choir and 7-15 in the pews.

So there is a really lovely old Orthodox church in my region, with a rich history that spans more than a century. It used to be a a very vibrant and active community, as dozens of inspiring photographs in the church hall can attest to. Unfortunately, something seems to have gone horribly wrong. I have attended Divine Liturgy at this church 3 times now, and the pews sat about 80-90% empty each time I went.

The remaining parishioners are very friendly, the priest is charismatic and engaging, and the building is beautiful. "There is really no good reason why this church is so 'abandoned'", I thought and then during the middle of the liturgy I had a revelation. I was not singing, and I was not engaged, and a brief glance around the room revealed that nobody else was either. Forgive me brothers and sisters, but I am ashamed to say that I felt myself falling asleep near the tail end of service the last time I went to this church, which is COMPLETELY out of character for me.

The choir at this church fully dominates the liturgy, they sing from atop a protestant style choir loft, and they are so loud and pitchy that none of the lay people can follow along. Forgive me again, I do not want to be uncharitable, but to me it seems as though they were acting more like "performers" and less like "song leaders". If this church would breakup the choir, and bring the members down among the rest of the congregation, I think that it might help them revitalize their community. Has anyone else ever experienced something like this before? Is this a common phenomena in Orthodoxy?

 

[pdudgeon]

So there is a really lovely old Orthodox church in my region, with a rich history that spans more than a century. It used to be a a very vibrant and active community, as dozens of inspiring photographs in the church hall can attest to. Unfortunately, something seems to have gone horribly wrong. I have attended Divine Liturgy at this church 3 times now, and the pews sat about 80-90% empty each time I went.

The remaining parishioners are very friendly, the priest is charismatic and engaging, and the building is beautiful. "There is really no good reason why this church is so 'abandoned'", I thought and then during the middle of the liturgy I had a revelation. I was not singing, and I was not engaged, and a brief glance around the room revealed that nobody else was either. Forgive me brothers and sisters, but I am ashamed to say that I felt myself falling asleep near the tail end of service the last time I went to this church, which is COMPLETELY out of character for me.

The choir at this church fully dominates the liturgy, they sing from atop a protestant style choir loft, and they are so loud and pitchy that none of the lay people can follow along. Forgive me again, I do not want to be uncharitable, but to me it seems as though they were acting more like "performers" and less like "song leaders". If this church would breakup the choir, and bring the members down among the rest of the congregation, I think that it might help them revitalize their community. Has anyone else ever experienced something like this before? Is this a common phenomena in Orthodoxy?

i think you've got the right idea. I would talk with the choir director and let him/her know that the congregation needs help with the music, and would he/she mind lending a few voices each service, and making due with a quartet instead of a full choir for awhile until things pick up, especially for the Advent/Christmas season?
if you pitch it as a temporary thing it might go over well.

 

[JackRT]

i think you've got the right idea. I would talk with the choir director and let him/her know that the congregation needs help with the music, and would he/she mind lending a few voices each service, and making due with a quartet instead of a full choir for awhile until things pick up, especially for the Advent/Christmas season?
if you pitch it as a temporary thing it might go over well.

Good advice.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Has anyone else ever experienced something like this before?

yes.

Is this a common phenomena in Orthodoxy?

I don't think so. the point of the choir is to lead the people in their worship with them, not to be above them or the clergy. the most important thing is if the community is loving. all the rest will work itself out. I have been to a few parishes where the choir was grating, but the people loved each other.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Interesting.

I can't say that I know about this happening. If anything, perhaps the reverse.

When I first came to the parish I belong to, I noticed that there was relatively little singing in the congregation, and the choir was absolutely heavenly.

(I am being and have been in posting here - charitable. There was almost NO singing most of the time, but coming from a somewhat demonstrative non-denominational background most recently before that, I thought it was just wrong expectation on my part.)

There have been some small attempts to encourage singing in the congregation.

Now, a few years later, I'm in the choir, but that is only on Sundays, and also there have been a number of times lately I wasn't up to it, so stayed down with the congregation. And am very pleased to find that more people now sing than not - there is quite a bit of participation. On a weekday Liturgy, pretty much all usually sing.

I do find it vitally important that people participate. Having the choir be among the people, or even just a few choir members even, seems a good idea to me.

It's a good point you bring up.

 

[Anhelyna]

This is something I'm struggling with in my own Parish.

Our people have always sung - and you absorb the chant patterns easily because Ukrainians sing. However our men are all aging and Father thought that a few 'singers' would help. Soo a choir was formed for Liturgical and Social occasions. Someone chose the music they would use . I joined - and after 3 months of rehearsals gave up - it was a chat session with a bit of singing and the Hymns we had taken all that time to learn have still never been sung [ that was over a year ago !! ]. Now the Choir , sitting in the 'body of the Church' are singing beautiful Cathedral settings and the people no longer sing as they can't do these chants

If you are going to have a choir - then they need to lead , not take over.

 

[buzuxi02]

I'm not sure if it will help with church attendance, but you can try. If the priest is good, it may simply be a case of shifting demographic patterns and even lukewarm faith by those past generations. Many older Orthodox whose kids married in the heterodox spouse congregation and either attend there or have become nominal. But yes I have experienced overpowering choirs and it's too much. Personally I'm not even into choirs, I would prefer a good chanter for the entire liturgy.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone, it just makes me sad to see this church struggling. Buzuxi02 you are right in that they have probably lost many members to heterodox marriages and the secularization of younger generations, but this is true of many other churches in the area as well, and the other churches have started to regrow a young base of converts. This church has not for some reason, and I think that reason is that the choir takes people out of the liturgy.

I unfortunately do not know the members of this church well enough to make any suggestions, but it is my hope that they make some changes there soon.

 

[pdudgeon]

does the church have a drop box for anonymous questions/suggestions?
or if you're still in the process of going Byzantine, is there a church instructor that you could raise this question with?

 

[~Anastasia~]

You could even mail a letter anonymously and just say that as a visitor that was your experience, and wonder whether it might not better for the sake of drawing people into the Liturgy to move the choir around or something?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Funny. In my parish the parishioners can sing just as loud as the choir, sometimes louder sometimes softer. Frankly, I just don't care. It's for the Lord, not a pageant or presentation. It's a "liturgy" or "work of the people." The choir are people. The folks in the pews are people. The altar boys and priest are people. It's a collective work. As long as people are singing, the Lord hears. We have a reader who has a super soft voice. He's a great guy, but has a small voice. I wish he were louder. When I'm reader on Sunday, like I was yesterday, you can hear me down the block. Different styles. I want the epistle, prokeimenon, and alleluia HEARD. But with either of us the Lord's word is read. I've gotten good feedback here and there from folks, and it's much-appreciated, but the way I look at it is SOMEONE needs to make sure things are heard, absorbed, and given up to heaven in worship. Someone. Anyone. It's a work of the people. I wouldn't approach the priest or choir with concerns unless I have been at that parish a long time, have been Orthodox for quite a while, and feel it's appropriate. Personally I'd just go with the flow.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Long time everyone... Due to a lot of family problems, we havent been to church in a while. Please keep me and my family in your prayers...

I agree that some choirs and organists can take away from the congregation singing on their own. More often than not, a bad choir or organist can destroy a service. One choir is so slow that "Christos Anesti" sounds like a funeral dirge. You could hear the congregation trying to speed things up, but since the choir was using microphones, it dragged everything back down. On the other hand, a very good choir with a four part harmony can make the congregation very passive and go into listening mode as they dont feel "good enough" to join in. My own preference is now to have the chanters lead or a choir is used in points of the service where the congregation is moving around and not settled in such as the beginning of the service, cherubic hymn, during communion and during the end.

 

[gzt]

Yes.
20 years ago we had 12-20 in the choir and 75-150 in the pews.
Today we have 15 in the choir and 7-15 in the pews.

This is actually a very good situation - I think one would rather have half the people in the choir than a quartet. In such a case I'd recommend having the choir down from the loft and set up so that everybody is sort of forced to be near the choir but have a choice to join in or do their own thing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Long time everyone... Due to a lot of family problems, we havent been to church in a while. Please keep me and my family in your prayers...

Lord have mercy!

 

[All4Christ]

I like congregational singing, but I would point out that just because some don't sing doesn't mean they aren't participating. You can participate through silent prayer, singing, or in whatever way helps you focus on God most. I didn't understand this at first, but I really firmly believe that there is not one single way to worship God through the liturgy. I like having the choir on the side right next to the congregation because they are "a part" of the congregation.

 

[Anhelyna]

The problem really comes when the Choir Director chooses music that it is impossible for most folk in the Congregation to sing because the settings chosen require singers who can spend time each week rehearsing advanced music. Liturgical chant is not meant to be a performance by a few .

 

[All4Christ]

The problem really comes when the Choir Director chooses music that it is impossible for most folk in the Congregation to sing because the settings chosen require singers who can spend time each week rehearsing advanced music. Liturgical chant is not meant to be a performance by a few .

I agree in general, though I think a more complex piece for a cherubic hymn, or a hymns during the preparation of the Eucharist is fine, if the choir can handle it properly. But...that's just my opinion. The majority should be at least singable. A good choir can also sing pieces of moderate difficulty while still doing it in a way that the congregation can sing alongside them. I personally think it is good for the choir to practice together anyways, as it is important to have steady balanced voices to lead the others.

We have moderate difficulty for some songs, but the congregation still can join in. If a choir can do that, then that is fine. We also occasionally have a piece or two while the Eucharist is being prepared that is more difficult. We do practice regularly so that we can lead the congregation effectively. That said, the liturgy itself should be able to be sung by the congregation.

It is however 100% acceptable for someone to worship in another way than singing should they choose to do so.

Certainly it should not be a performance. I don't think any of us believe that.

 

[Rosie Q]

This was a very interesting thread to read.

I think there are different cultures here, in different EO churches. I understand from this thread that some (most?) EO churches encourage the people to sing out loud. What I have encountered is the opposite. The choir is like "playing the part" of the people. Some people in the congregation do sing, but most don't do it so much, and not terribly loud.

The church is small. It is not the case of a very fancy choir, singing stuff that is too difficult for most people. I think this simply is the culture in this church. This is what they are used to, and how they think it should be.

I find it puzzling BUT I do not feel the congregation is passive. Far from it. And I think a key, really, is that they stand. I am really surprised that so many of you mention pews. Here are benches and chairs along the sides, and you can sit down once in while and nobody seems to disapprove, but people mostly stand. They bow and cross themselves in amounts I have never before encountered. Certainly they know where in the liturgy they are, since they know when to cross and bow. They are not passive.

The Lutherans high mass OTOH - which is where I'm coming from - does IMHO require that the congregation sings. If the people in the pews don't sing, or sing very quietly, the whole mass kind of tips over, getting stuck in the sanctuary. In a couple of churches I have experienced congregations that really played their part, so to speak. It is wonderful. This is often not the case. When a Lutheran congregation is quiet, I feel they are passive.
I have certainly experienced organs drowning out the congregation's singing, creating this passive feeling even if it wasn't true!. There seldom is a choir "doubling", though (and if there is, it's terrible because you got to be soprano or tenor to handle the pitch).

When the congregation is quiet in Lutheran high mass, it makes me uneasy. I didn't grow up in church. I don't know all the liturgy, in including all those hymns, by heart. I need others to lean on. Once I learn the stuff I'm a decent singer, and then others can lean on me. But when stuff is new to me - and there are oh so many hymns in the hymn book! - I need people to lean on. The organ doesn't do it for me. If I hear just the organ and myself, I feel lonely, like there really isn't an congregation at all.

I'm learning to accept that the people in this EO church don't sing all that much. It somehow works anyhow. But I do think it would be disastrous if they installed pews, or *gasp* an organ. Don't get me wrong now - I realise some of you use organs in your EO churches. I am used to it, from my Lutheran background, and it can be a fantastic instrument. But I am encountering another concept than what I am used to. After all, the human voice is the primordial musical instrument. I'm learning to like it.

And I do like that the people have no hymn books in their hands, and no paper sheets with the liturgy on it. Those things are practical, but they also create a distance. This is more like ears, eyes and smells, plus all that bowing and crossing. More immediate, in a way, although of course I don't understand all that is going on. It's kind of a relief not having to ... I'll learn, in time.

So bottom line:
I don't think it necessarily is wrong if the congregation is fairly quiet. I think it depends.