When is the CHURCH going to force the govt out of it's sacraments

[Almighty's humble servant]

Marriage.
A sacrament. A holy vow made between a man and a woman before God, and INCLUDING GOD.
Why does the Church allow the govt to define marriage, whether between heterosexuals following their faith and entering the sacrament or between sinners of the same sex, pretending to do the same, following the lusts of their flesh.
Why do WE allow for the govt to call a civil union a marriage?

We don't allow the govt to call Christmas, Christmas anymore. We don't allow the govt to call Thanksgiving Holy Communion.

We should take back marriage. We should take back Christmas and Easter and let the seculars have their vacations and their unions.

Where is the ACLU while the govt is instituting a religious ceremony, a sacrament?
Cmon ACLU ban marriage. It is NOT the govt's job to define it.

If a Church chooses to recognize an abomination like homosexuality as OK, then WE can excommunicate them can't we. Kick the whole church out of our midst. But, it needs to start with a stand.
Where do we stand?

 

[ebedmelech]

Marriage.
A sacrament. A holy vow made between a man and a woman before God, and INCLUDING GOD.
Why does the Church allow the govt to define marriage, whether between heterosexuals following their faith and entering the sacrament or between sinners of the same sex, pretending to do the same, following the lusts of their flesh.
Why do WE allow for the govt to call a civil union a marriage?

We don't allow the govt to call Christmas, Christmas anymore. We don't allow the govt to call Thanksgiving Holy Communion.

We should take back marriage. We should take back Christmas and Easter and let the seculars have their vacations and their unions.

Where is the ACLU while the govt is instituting a religious ceremony, a sacrament?
Cmon ACLU ban marriage. It is NOT the govt's job to define it.

If a Church chooses to recognize an abomination like homosexuality as OK, then WE can excommunicate them can't we. Kick the whole church out of our midst. But, it needs to start with a stand.
Where do we stand?

Your argument here is pretty pointless in light of Romans 13.

Marriage is given also to society. The government CANNOT force a church to hold a marriage ceremony.

You really have no argument. If the government allows same sex marriage, it cannot make a church accept it.

This is a non issue.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Marriage.
A sacrament. A holy vow made between a man and a woman before God, and INCLUDING GOD.
Why does the Church allow the govt to define marriage, whether between heterosexuals following their faith and entering the sacrament or between sinners of the same sex, pretending to do the same, following the lusts of their flesh.
Why do WE allow for the govt to call a civil union a marriage?

We don't allow the govt to call Christmas, Christmas anymore. We don't allow the govt to call Thanksgiving Holy Communion.

We should take back marriage. We should take back Christmas and Easter and let the seculars have their vacations and their unions.

Where is the ACLU while the govt is instituting a religious ceremony, a sacrament?
Cmon ACLU ban marriage. It is NOT the govt's job to define it.

If a Church chooses to recognize an abomination like homosexuality as OK, then WE can excommunicate them can't we. Kick the whole church out of our midst. But, it needs to start with a stand.
Where do we stand?

Whether you like it or not, this country has a SECULAR government, therefore the government can control the laws. Marriage is a state issue. If you choose not to approve of their lifestyle you have that right, but it is a STATE issue. Are you saying that Atheists cannot marry? If you say the marriage vows MUST include God then that is what youb are saying, as Atheists do NOT believe in God.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Your argument here is pretty pointless in light of Romans 13.

Marriage is given also to society. The government CANNOT force a church to hold a marriage ceremony.

You really have no argument. If the government allows same sex marriage, it cannot make a church accept it.

This is a non issue.

My point is that we, the CHURCH have allowed the govt to carry out OUR work of bringing marriage before God. It is NOT a govt duty to marry ppl.

Marriage is a sacrament, which the Church performs. The govt has NO right performing our practices. If someone wants to have a union with a woman or a man for all WE CARE, outside the Church, keep God out of it.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Whether you like it or not, this country has a SECULAR government, therefore the government can control the laws. Marriage is a state issue. If you choose not to approve of their lifestyle you have that right, but it is a STATE issue. Are you saying that Atheists cannot marry? If you say the marriage vows MUST include God then that is what youb are saying, as Atheists do NOT believe in God.

i AM saying that unless God is the pinnacle of the marriage, it is NOT a marriage, it is a civil union.

 

[dogs4thewin]

i AM saying that unless God is the pinnacle of the marriage, it is NOT a marriage, it is a civil union.

and I am saying that this is a SECULAR society. You can like it or you can not. If you choose to disapprove OK, but the fact is that this SECULAR government, thus the government makes the laws.

 

[ebedmelech]

i AM saying that unless God is the pinnacle of the marriage, it is NOT a marriage, it is a civil union.

I don't get that one. A marriage performed by the government is a marriage the only difference is in the "civil ceremony" the judge or justice of the peace recognizes no deity in the ceremony.

 

[Lovely Lane]

Right, the difference between civil union vs. holy matrimony (marriage).
The gov isn't in the business of forcing church to conduct marriage to same-sex types, yet. But if opposition to civil unions is so great in 50 States, I think the Federal gov will find a way to convince the church to accept same-sex marriages. Case in point is prior to government taking action, church supported slavery up until government outlawed it.
Then the clergy stopped using 'curse of Ham' rhetoric and turned over a new leaf, magically scripture was re-interpreted, the black man was no longer considered to be a mere servant/slave.

So, if the church won't learn from past practices of government power, they just may be find themselves preforming SSM's some day and another magical re-interpretation appears.

Best to let secular society have there civil unions than to lose out on the virtues of Holy Matrimony.

 

[ebedmelech]

Right, the difference between civil union vs. holy matrimony (marriage).
The gov isn't in the business of forcing church to conduct marriage to same-sex types, yet. But if opposition to civil unions is so great in 50 States, I think the Federal gov will find a way to convince the church to accept same-sex marriages. Case in point is prior to government taking action, church supported slavery up until government outlawed it.
Then the clergy stopped using 'curse of Ham' rhetoric and turned over a new leaf, magically scripture was re-interpreted, the black man was no longer considered to be a mere servant/slave.

So, if the church won't learn from past practices of government power, they just may be find themselves preforming SSM's some day and another magical re-interpretation appears.

Best to let secular society have there civil unions than to lose out on the virtues of Holy Matrimony.

Don't bank on the government getting the church to do anything...or just get ready to lock up a lot of Christians.

As for the rest of what you say you're not bringing full truth. there were plenty of people in the Church that rejected slavery, helped to form the Underground Railroad, and rejected "the curse of Ham"...so at least be fair.

 

[Lovely Lane]

Don't bank on the government getting the church to do anything...or just get ready to lock up a lot of Christians.

As for the rest of what you say you're not bringing full truth. there were plenty of people in the Church that rejected slavery, helped to form the Underground Railroad, and rejected "the curse of Ham"...so at least be fair.

Don't bank on it uh? Explain as to why the slave-support rhetoric disappeared from church pulpits. Waiting to hear this one.

Right, be fair. I'm from the North and know of the Railroad and of the churches who didn't interpret verse to justify the black man in servitude. But that wasn't the point I was making was it, be fair.

Lock up Christians? sure why not, wouldn't be the first time. In the South during Civil Rights freedom march/Riders, many nice white Christian men were jailed for savage acts. They tell me that many Christians today are locked up in State pen's, so there is nothing new about you proclamation of locking up Christians, or Secularist, or Muslim, or Jew, etc.

 

[ebedmelech]

Don't bank on it uh? Explain as to why the slave-support rhetoric disappeared from church pulpits. Waiting to hear this one.

Right, be fair. I'm from the North and know of the Railroad and of the churches who didn't interpret verse to justify the black man in servitude. But that wasn't the point I was making was it, be fair.

Lock up Christians? sure why not, wouldn't be the first time. In the South during Civil Rights freedom march/Riders, many nice white Christian men were jailed for savage acts. They tell me that many Christians today are locked up in State pen's, so there is nothing new about you proclamation of locking up Christians, or Secularist, or Muslim, or Jew, etc.

First one has to assume that was the rhetoric. No one denies that was the rhetoric of many churches in the South, but not all. There were many house churches that formed because they rejected their church. I guess they forgot those.

As for why slave rhetoric disappeared...does it really matter? There's no one reason but I thank God it did.

We still have those racist movements who *say* their Christian...so what's the point? Those who had Jesus crucified thought they were right with God too.

Nobody said Christian meant perfect...so yep there's no doubt Christians in jail.

 

[SearchingStudent]

Nobody said Christian meant perfect...so yep there's no doubt Christians in jail.

Ya know, that's the biggest cop-out on earth. As Christians, we should strive to be better, to show Christ in all we do. But, we use your statement to justify bad behavior, hypocricy, lies, and crimes.

Jesus told us to be PERFECT as his Father is perfect. Admittedly, as fallen humanity, we fall short, but that's no reason to justify actions with that tired old rhetoric. We are called to a higher standard...now, let's put pressure on each other to live to that higher standard instead of that tired old cop-out. Frankly, I have many atheist, gay, pagan friends who are better, more loving people that profess to be Christians.

Time to stand up and set the standard, not be idiots and do whatever then claim "well, we're not perfect"...

 

[ebedmelech]

Ya know, that's the biggest cop-out on earth. As Christians, we should strive to be better, to show Christ in all we do. But, we use your statement to justify bad behavior, hypocricy, lies, and crimes.

Jesus told us to be PERFECT as his Father is perfect. Admittedly, as fallen humanity, we fall short, but that's no reason to justify actions with that tired old rhetoric. We are called to a higher standard...now, let's put pressure on each other to live to that higher standard instead of that tired old cop-out. Frankly, I have many atheist, gay, pagan friends who are better, more loving people that profess to be Christians.

Time to stand up and set the standard, not be idiots and do whatever then claim "well, we're not perfect"...

You can call it a copout if you wish. I call it a fact!

I grant that as Christians we should strive to be better but we will fall sometimes.

That's why I'm glad the bible shows us the failure of other Christians so we understand there's forgiveness...as Peter's sin when he denied Christ, and several other examples.

When you say "we fall short" you're saying the same thing. Is that a copout? So to be clear, I'm not justifying anything. I'm just saying how it is.

When was the last perfect day you had? So what I said is true. We are not perfect. We as Christians fail everyday. It's becomes a big problem if we simply copout as you say and give up the fight against our wrong thoughts and desires and actions...but I trust and know that God will discipline those of us that do that.

I agree we should challenge one another to live to a higher standard I'm all for that. However let's face it...there will be Christians who fail and fail miserably.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Best to let secular society have there civil unions than to lose out on the virtues of Holy Matrimony.

That's basically my point in a nutshell.

Marriage, as it's understood, is a HOLY MATRIMONY. I fail to understand how some are NOT making this connection.

Being that it is a RELIGIOUS institution, the govt, by it's own laws, has NO BUSINESS being involved or carrying out such practices. If the govt decides it wants to create secular unions, detestable or not, they should not CALL them marriages. Let them have their civil unions whether they be man and woman, atheists, homos, or man and dog for all we care. They're going to hell in a handbasket anyways, so let that ship sail already and sue the govt for using a religous term to define their unions.

 

[IisJustMe]

We don't allow the govt to call Christmas, Christmas anymore. We don't allow the govt to call Thanksgiving Holy Communion.

I don't think we had any desire, as Christians, for them to drop the images and impressions of faith from those holidays. It was the "politically correct" atheists who insisted that using those terms was an "insult" to "others not sharing in the Christian faith" when in fact it was the atheists who were insulted and didn't want to hear the name of Jesus or His good news.

Why do WE allow for the govt to call a civil union a marriage?

Again, not our choice. We don't recognize "civil unions" as anything other than government red tape.

We should take back marriage. We should take back Christmas and Easter and let the seculars have their vacations and their unions.

I do. I pay no attention to how the rest of the world celebrates the time off they take on these Christian holidays.

Why do WE allow for the govt to call a civil union a marriage?

Where is the ACLU while the govt is instituting a religious ceremony, a sacrament?

Applauding them for removing the trappings of faith from a holy ceremony that cannot be holy without those "trappings" which point to Christ.

If a Church chooses to recognize an abomination like homosexuality as OK, then WE can excommunicate them can't we. Kick the whole church out of our midst. But, it needs to start with a stand.
Where do we stand?

I don't think we should do that any more than we should banish those Christians who are trapped in the lifestyle of homosexual behavior any more than we banish drug addicts, alcoholics, adulterers, thieves, liars or murderers from the church. Those are the people who desperately need to be in church.

 

[Lovely Lane]

That's basically my point in a nutshell.

Marriage, as it's understood, is a HOLY MATRIMONY. I fail to understand how some are NOT making this connection.

Being that it is a RELIGIOUS institution, the govt, by it's own laws, has NO BUSINESS being involved or carrying out such practices. If the govt decides it wants to create secular unions, detestable or not, they should not CALL them marriages. Let them have their civil unions whether they be man and woman, atheists, homos, or man and dog for all we care. They're going to hell in a handbasket anyways, so let that ship sail already and sue the govt for using a religous term to define their unions.

The ship has sailed for sure.

 

[Yarddog]

Marriage.
A sacrament. A holy vow made between a man and a woman before God, and INCLUDING GOD.
Why does the Church allow the govt to define marriage, whether between heterosexuals following their faith and entering the sacrament or between sinners of the same sex, pretending to do the same, following the lusts of their flesh.
Why do WE allow for the govt to call a civil union a marriage?

We don't allow the govt to call Christmas, Christmas anymore. We don't allow the govt to call Thanksgiving Holy Communion.

We should take back marriage. We should take back Christmas and Easter and let the seculars have their vacations and their unions.

Where is the ACLU while the govt is instituting a religious ceremony, a sacrament?
Cmon ACLU ban marriage. It is NOT the govt's job to define it.

If a Church chooses to recognize an abomination like homosexuality as OK, then WE can excommunicate them can't we. Kick the whole church out of our midst. But, it needs to start with a stand.
Where do we stand?

Well, do you want to change the Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self evident , that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creatorhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creator_deity with certain unalienable Rights , that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happinesshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_liberty_and_the_pursuit_of_happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

As long as our government is based on these words, our policy makers should be bound to adhere to maintaining equality for all, and not follow the belief system of any particular religion.

An Atheist is equal to a Christian, a Muslim is equal to a Christian, a Buddhist is equal to a Christian, a homosexual is equal to a heterosexual, under the law of the land.

Marriage is not only a religious ceremony. It is also a civil union. Our Churches do not have to recognize the religious aspect of any marriage ceremony and most will not recognize gay marriages, though some will.

Christmas is a holy day for most Christians but not all recognize it on the same day or even at all.

We are a nation of diversity. It takes us all to make us great and to maintain our freedoms.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

I don't think we should do that any more than we should banish those Christians who are trapped in the lifestyle of homosexual behavior any more than we banish drug addicts, alcoholics, adulterers, thieves, liars or murderers from the church. Those are the people who desperately need to be in church.

Very true. We should welcome heterosexuals who are repentant of their abominable acts of indecency with open arms. Prodigal son.

We should welcome addicts and alcoholics who are repentant of their indecent acts with open arms. Prodigal son.


We should welcome back murderers and liars and thieves back with open arms when they are repentant of their indecent acts. Prodigal son.

Now. We don't often get to talk with a murderer who has repented since he is usually sitting on death row or serving out a life sentence in a prison, but we certainly pray for these that the Lord will strengthen them and carry them through until we all have our embrace at His Coming.
But we all know thieves and liars since we are ALL in that category. I, for one, am wholly sorry and repentant when I fall into sin. A white lie, telling my master I was sick when I overslept. Painful to admit, but repentance is key to forgiveness. Same goes for our adulterous nature, lusting after woman who are not our bride simply by looking at her and admiring her curves or her beauty. Repentance is KEY.

What saddens me so is the utter disrespect for our Master's sacrifice for us by the homosexuals among us. They make a mockery of His sacrifice and recrucify Him with each unrepentant act. It is, IMO, time for Christians to make a stand. Tell the govt that marriage is a HOLY UNION, and since Christian "ceremonies" are no longer allowed to be practiced by the govt, it is time to bring marriage back to God ALONE.

Let's see where the govt stands soas we can stand against it on this issue.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Well, do you want to change the Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self evident , that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creatorhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creator_deity with certain unalienable Rights , that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happinesshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_liberty_and_the_pursuit_of_happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

As long as our government is based on these words, our policy makers should be bound to adhere to maintaining equality for all, and not follow the belief system of any particular religion.

An Atheist is equal to a Christian, a Muslim is equal to a Christian, a Buddhist is equal to a Christian, a homosexual is equal to a heterosexual, under the law of the land.

Marriage is not only a religious ceremony. It is also a civil union. Our Churches do not have to recognize the religious aspect of any marriage ceremony and most will not recognize gay marriages, though some will.

Christmas is a holy day for most Christians but not all recognize it on the same day or even at all.

We are a nation of diversity. It takes us all to make us great and to maintain our freedoms.

Everything I've read on the subject of Marriage is that it is a Holy Matrimony. A sacrament, in which Christ Jesus, and through Him, God, is the head of.

It is my argument, that the US govt, and ALL secular govts across the globe, STOP, any union sanctioned solely by the govts, from being called a MARRIAGE.

Let the govt have it's civil unions and get them out of the business of marriage.

 

[Yarddog]

Everything I've read on the subject of Marriage is that it is a Holy Matrimony. A sacrament, in which Christ Jesus, and through Him, God, is the head of.

It is my argument, that the US govt, and ALL secular govts across the globe, STOP, any union sanctioned solely by the govts, from being called a MARRIAGE.

Let the govt have it's civil unions and get them out of the business of marriage.

I would agree but marriage does not mean a religious ceremony. Christians or other religions make it that way. We take our vows before God while a man of the cloth presides,but for the most part, most gay marriages go before an employee of the government. Their vows are to each other and not God.

The government, by this, takes God out of ceremony and there is no sacrament.