When is personal criticism not an Ad Hominem Fallacy during debate?

2PhiloVoid

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For some reason or other, it seems the Ad Hominem "complaint" is dragged out quite often and applied to Christians who make character judgements about their interlocutors during debate.

Because the identification of an ad hominem seems to have become a hobby for various atheists, I thought it'd be good to inject a little deeper thought into differentiating and discerning those moments when it is proper to criticize another person's character from those moments where it may not be.

So, here's a little article by Yvonne Raley that briefly elucidates a few additional considerations about when it's proper to complain about ad hominem statements ... and when it's not.

Feel free to discuss this and the ways in which it may apply to rhetorical interactions which take place in Christian Apologetics. :cool:
 
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childeye 2

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I believe the correct definition is when the credibility of a person's character is attacked rather than the substance of the argument that the person is making. This is similar to the sentiment behind "killing the messenger" since it seeks to defeat the message by discrediting the messenger.

Unfortunately due to the circumstance of semantics, a person who engages in ad hominem attacks does have what could be construed as a character flaw congruent with the fallacy of their reasoning. So when this fallacy is addressed, it can then be misconstrued as a "personal attack", incorrectly branded as an "ad hominem attack", followed up with an accusation of hypocrisy. In such a scenario, the process of killing the messenger who brought the message to not kill the messenger is repeated. This flaw in reasoning is due to vanity.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I believe the correct definition is when the credibility of a person's character is attacked rather than the substance of the argument that the person is making. This is similar to the sentiment behind "killing the messenger" since it seeks to defeat the message by discrediting the messenger.

Unfortunately due to the circumstance of semantics, a person who engages in ad hominem attacks does have what could be construed as a character flaw congruent with the fallacy of their reasoning. So when this fallacy is addressed, it can then be misconstrued as a personal attack, incorrectly branded as an ad hominem attack, followed up with an accusation of hypocrisy, and the whole process of killing the messenger who brought the message to not kill the messenger begins anew.

I like that response, childeye 2, but let's see how many others are on board with it. ;)
 
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childeye 2

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I like that response, childeye 2, but let's see how many others are on board with it. ;)
I would add that it doesn't matter what we think as far as opinion goes. Truth is actually authoritative, not subjective. Wherefore anytime a person treats someone in a way they would not want to be treated, they are reasoning upon falsehood whether they see it or not. It is therefore not hypocritical to seek to correct someone who engages in ad hominem attacks even though such correction can be construed as a personal attack.
 
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childeye 2

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Good post. I personally believe the question we must ask is, are we dealing with a spiritual entity that uses deception to make what is true seem to be false? In psycho linguistics, it is sometimes difficult to uncover the lies built upon deeper lies due to semantics inherent in our terms. The Holy Spirit is to be credited for guiding us in all Truth, wherein vanity serves no logical purpose.
 
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Halbhh

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Good post. I personally believe the question we must ask is, are we dealing with a spiritual entity that uses deception to make what is true seem to be false? In psycho linguistics, it is sometimes difficult to uncover the lies built upon deeper lies due to semantics inherent in our terms. The Holy Spirit is to be credited for guiding us in all Truth, wherein vanity serves no logical purpose.

:) The truth wins out. We can trust the words of wisdom over all thoughts. There's a gratitude. (I meant to type 'beatitude')
 
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So, what's the difference between the "fat doctor" and Jimmy Swaggart with a prostitute? If a justified ad hominem obtains when the critique and the character failing coincide, then either the fat doctor is being hypocritical for suggesting dieting, or Swaggart's statements about Christian character and morality stand regardless of his own failings. In other words, the doctor's guidance may be good regardless of the doctor not adhering to it, and the same goes for Jimmy. Does that make sense? What am I missing? I'm not seeing the difference between the two.
 
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Jok

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For some reason or other, it seems the Ad Hominem "complaint" is dragged out quite often and applied to Christians who make character judgements about their interlocutors during debate.

Because the identification of an ad hominem seems to have become a hobby for various atheists, I thought it'd be good to inject a little deeper thought into differentiating and discerning those moments when it is proper to criticize another person's character from those moments where it may not be.

So, here's a little article by Yvonne Raley that briefly elucidates a few additional considerations about when it's proper to complain about ad hominem statements ... and when it's not.

Feel free to discuss this and the ways in which it may apply to rhetorical interactions which take place in Christian Apologetics. :cool:
I’m of the opinion that this OP is extremely interesting from a general standpoint. Yet coming from you it is completely meaningless! Lol
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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There was a doctor called Ignaz Semmelweisz. He noticed that mothers and babies died when doctors don't wash their hands. So after collecting sufficient data, he wrote a book and proceeded to literally lash out at the rest of the medical establishment. He was vehement, obnoxious and determined. On account of this behaviour, he was sidelined, dying a broken man driven to drink, who was said to haunt the washbasin and force everyone to wash their hands in front of him. Today we celebrate this curious man as a father of Antiseptics, but he resulted in it being discredited for a generation.

This illustrates the danger of the ad hominem, of not evaluating an argument on its own merits but by who said it, or what authority he holds. Semmelweisz was not a hypocrite, but he looked like a loon. I have a lot of sympathy for him, since he was trying to convince people to save lives - but saying they have the blood of untold millions on their hands, as he did, certainly was not the way to do so. Let's say he didn't wash his hands though, what he said would still hold true. Many doctors smoke, but though they are being hypocritical, no good doctor would not advise a patient to stop doing so. Similarly, all men are sinners, but that doesn't mean we can't say that sin is wrong. In many ways, we often only realise the truth of something, when we ourselves have transgressed it.
 
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Far too often people conflate a criticism about someone, which could be called an ad hominem and are often justified, with an ad hominem fallacy. An ad hominem fallacy is never proper.

Let's take the fat doctor example. Assuming he actually is fat pointing out his hypocrisy would not be necessarily an ad hominem fallacy but to say:

"That doctor is fat, therefore he doesn't know anything about cars."

would be an example of an ad hominem fallacy.

And one could put Jimmy Swaggert in the above example too. An ad hominem fallacy arises when the attack has nothing to do with topic being discussed. "You are ugly, therefore you are wrong." That is a classic ad hominem fallacy.
 
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Far too often people conflate a criticism about someone, which could be called an ad hominem and are often justified, with an ad hominem fallacy. An ad hominem fallacy is never proper.

Let's take the fat doctor example. Assuming he actually is fat pointing out his hypocrisy would not be necessarily an ad hominem fallacy but to say:

"That doctor is fat, therefore he doesn't know anything about cars."

would be an example of an ad hominem fallacy.

And one could put Jimmy Swaggert in the above example too. An ad hominem fallacy arises when the attack has nothing to do with topic being discussed. "You are ugly, therefore you are wrong." That is a classic ad hominem fallacy.

Does it always have to be an unrelated topic? If I say, "That doctor is fat, therefore he doesn't know anything about healthy eating," wouldn't that also be an instance of the fallacy?

On the other hand, criticism would be something like, "That fat doctor is a hypocrite for not taking his own advice."
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I would add that it doesn't matter what we think as far as opinion goes. Truth is actually authoritative, not subjective. Wherefore anytime a person treats someone in a way they would not want to be treated, they are reasoning upon falsehood whether they see it or not. It is therefore not hypocritical to seek to correct someone who engages in ad hominem attacks even though such correction can be construed as a personal attack.

I think I agree that, generally speaking, truth is authoritative. However, the main problem I'm trying to get at in my OP is that whenever a personal criticism seems to be presented, then various individuals who are the recipient of the personal criticism then assert they are being fallaciously attacked or that they are still qualified to keep asserting their own opinions....in full and without any further qualified discernment given by anyone else. And it is this "overly democratic social impetus" that I have qualms with.

Especially as Christians, the act of doing Christian Apologetics, even within the expressive limitations that the biblical requirements of generosity, gentleness, and compassion provide, don't and shouldn't prohibit Christians from occasionally laying out personal criticisms, admonishments, or direct prophetic denunciations of those persons who do evil (even when those who do evil think they're not doing evil AND even if some person, in the process of doing evil, just happens to say something---'true.').
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I’m of the opinion that this OP is extremely interesting from a general standpoint. Yet coming from you it is completely meaningless! Lol

Thank you, Jok........................................................ uh, that means.................. a lot?! :rolleyes: ^_^
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So, what's the difference between the "fat doctor" and Jimmy Swaggart with a prostitute? If a justified ad hominem obtains when the critique and the character failing coincide, then either the fat doctor is being hypocritical for suggesting dieting, or Swaggart's statements about Christian character and morality stand regardless of his own failings. In other words, the doctor's guidance may be good regardless of the doctor not adhering to it, and the same goes for Jimmy. Does that make sense? What am I missing? I'm not seeing the difference between the two.

Don't forget to add in Richard Carrier to your list for good measure... :cool:

From just the brief article alone, Yvonne Raley cites Walton as describing some additional evaluative measures we probably could (and maybe should) have in place in the process of determining the level of legitimacy that is expressed in the character of our interlocutors. For the fact that various levels of hypocrisy can come into play, this may very well affect the extent to which we think we are even being offered the so-called "truth."

For instance, I can read something like a Richard Carrier essay, and in the midst of that reading, my mind will currently think of two things: He exaggerates some of the points of 'truth' he makes as he floats along in his descriptive articulations, churning out what I think are acerbic commentaries about the Christian faith. At the same time, I also know from other sources something about his character. So....all the while I can hear and listen to his assertions, some of which may be true to some extent, this means a few things for me, things that I think can be said ABOUT HIM without me committing an ad hominem fallacy: Carrier exaggerates AND Carrier isn't the most moral guy around; he makes excuses for his behavior rather than facing it and repenting of it, AND because of these existing complications in his own point of view, these 'things' make it difficult for me to assess his interior motivations which drive his acts of critical assertion against Christianity.

Of course, for the sake of fairness, I'd then take the shoe off and put it on the foot of someone like Jimmy Swaggart and see if it fits. (And by golly, it's a pretty close fit, in my estimation!) And I at times will put the shoe on my own foot---and I've found that my foot undergoes various mutations when doing so. Sometimes it fits; sometimes it doesn't. [In fact, it's Incredible for me to see what happens when I put the shoe on my own foot ... :rolleyes:]

So, we might surmise that full-bodied hypocrisy is one factor in any interlocution and its presence deserves criticism and might be something that should sway us to 'reconsider' the extent that we're ACTUALLY getting the truth from another individual. It might be that what we're getting is a half-truth when a hypocrite speaks. If so, then we're going to have to more fully engage not just the message offered up to us from another party for our consideration, but the quality of that person's moral life and his or her motivations that drive it all.

Now, what other factors, other than hypocrisy, might come into play in our making personal criticisms of others and our expecting not to be charged with making an ad hominem fallacy? (This is a question for everyone, really. ;))

Thanks for your well-placed comments, PH!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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:) The truth wins out. We can trust the words of wisdom over all thoughts. There's a gratitude. (I meant to type 'beatitude')

I don't think the truth always wins out, brother Halbhh. Although, I'd be willing to say that God always wins out, which is a different concept about truth than just asserting that truth, as a human assertion, wins out.

See the difference?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Far too often people conflate a criticism about someone, which could be called an ad hominem and are often justified, with an ad hominem fallacy. An ad hominem fallacy is never proper.

Let's take the fat doctor example. Assuming he actually is fat pointing out his hypocrisy would not be necessarily an ad hominem fallacy but to say:

"That doctor is fat, therefore he doesn't know anything about cars."

would be an example of an ad hominem fallacy.

And one could put Jimmy Swaggert in the above example too. An ad hominem fallacy arises when the attack has nothing to do with topic being discussed. "You are ugly, therefore you are wrong." That is a classic ad hominem fallacy.

I'd instead offer that our willingness to interact with, trust, listen to, and take 'the truth' from another individual should be accepted only AFTER we know their intentions, their motivations, and their social bent. It's not enough to merely offer up something we might say is 'the truth' and expect people to just 'take it in.' Besides, one single human sentence which we we offer up as 'a truth' never exhausts the descriptions that can be made about the Reality from which we've drawn the points for our truth statement, and I think we forget this.
 
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childeye 2

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I think I agree that, generally speaking, truth is authoritative. However, the main problem I'm trying to get at in my OP is that whenever a personal criticism seems to be presented, then various individuals who are the recipient of the personal criticism then assert they are being fallaciously attacked or that they are still qualified to keep asserting their own opinions....in full and without any further qualified discernment given by anyone else. And it is this "overly democratic social impetus" that I have qualms with.

Especially as Christians, the act of doing Christian Apologetics, even within the expressive limitations that the biblical requirements of generosity, gentleness, and compassion provide, don't and shouldn't prohibit Christians from occasionally laying out personal criticisms, admonishments, or direct prophetic denunciations of those persons who do evil (even when those who do evil think they're not doing evil AND even if some person, in the process of doing evil, just happens to say something---'true.').
Thank you for the post. I believe I understand and can sympathize with your sentiment. After all, there is a profound difference between a personal criticism meant to edify, and one meant to disparage others so as to reinforce one's own position. Ironically the same words could be used to do either.

Therefore the existence of diverging connotations for the same terms can lead to an occasion for misunderstanding. We may also perceive that some people seem to have a predisposition towards hearing only the connotation that will bring offence at being corrected, when otherwise they would have been thankful. In psycho linguistics this is a form of projection. With some insight it is possible to qualify one's terms so as to diminish or even eliminate the occasion for such misunderstandings to occur. Therefore, there exists also good forms of psychological manipulation.

Please consider the differences between these two phrases and notice that by comparison one suggests a clarity concerning what is true while the other suggests an obscurity about what is true:
Generally speaking Truth is authoritative.
Objectively speaking Truth is authoritative.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Thank you for the post. I believe I understand and can sympathize with your sentiment. After all, there is a profound difference between a personal criticism meant to edify, and one meant to disparage others so as to reinforce one's own position. Ironically the same words could be used to do either.

Therefore the existence of diverging connotations for the same terms can lead to an occasion for misunderstanding. We may also perceive that some people seem to have a predisposition towards hearing only the connotation that will bring offence at being corrected, when otherwise they would have been thankful. In psycho linguistics this is a form of projection. With some insight it is possible to qualify one's terms so as to diminish or even eliminate the occasion for such misunderstandings to occur. Therefore, there exists also good forms of psychological manipulation.

Please consider the differences between these two phrases and notice that by comparison one suggests a clarity concerning what is true while the other suggests an obscurity about what is true:
Generally speaking Truth is authoritative.
Objectively speaking Truth is authoritative.

These are to be considered, and I much appreciate what you're saying here, but being the Kierkegaardian and Pascalian type thinker that I am, I think there's a bit more to the nature of truth of any sort than mere "objectivity." No, there is something of a more sublime Subjectivity, although not of the colloquial level of it, that is part and parcel of our cognitive interactions with the Reality we find around us, even of the spiritual reality in Christ that we have around us.

And this is all I'll say to you on this since this forum section isn't meant to become a grounds for Christians to wrestle in, brother. ;)
 
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Hazelelponi

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I like that response, childeye 2, but let's see how many others are on board with it. ;)

Lets take Anti American Sentiment for an example.

If a person is always attacking Americans, post after post, at some point one must suppose the reason for the umpteenth Anti-American thread is not because of any one issue, but rather a deeper underlying issue with the thread creator themselves that is the root cause of what begins to appear as hate.

Likewise the opposite then also holds true. If someone is always pro-America in every post and never seems to question anything "America" does, you can suppose there is an underlying issue that is the root cause of what begins to appear as blindness to any potential problems or issues.

While the adage debate the post and not the poster is a good one, most especially on online forums where things can get rowdy if it remains unchecked, there are times posting history begins to become more apparent, and this light of experience gives way to question a posters underlying motives for the posting, whether in reply or in OP.
 
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