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When is One's Fate Secured?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by bcbsr, May 13, 2019.

  1. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    When is one's fate secured?

    Those who are of Reformed Theology believe in Unconditional Election in which one's fate is secured prior to them even being born and not conditioned upon anything like faith, which is an attitude, nor action on their part. They are born eternally secure in the fate that God arbitrarily chooses for them.

    Faith in Works Christians believe that one's fate is not determined until one actually ends up in heaven or hell, and then they are eternally secure in that fate.

    Those who follow the teachings of Jesus and his apostles believe that upon coming to genuine faith in Christ (not to be confused with those of a faith in works soteriology) one is eternal security in their fate, which has been finalized if they had already pass from death to life, bypassing the judgement. Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

    Little doubt unbelievers in the latter will respond with their misinterpretations of verses to defend their unbelief. But to dispel one typical notion, namely the idea that those who have been born of God can "fall away" or that it's possible for those born of God to live in sin, which is not descriptive of those who have eternal life, I would present a couple of verses.

    "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 Thus because of his nature, those born of God not only don't have the ability to fall away, neither do they have the ability to live in sin.

    Secondly note 1John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." The principle "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us", known as the Perseverance of the Saints, indicates that it is not possible, once belonging to fall away.

    No doubt the faith in works Christians have their own spin interpreting these verses.
     
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  2. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Unless one is an Open Theist, the conclusion should be that someone’s destiny is secured (?) from eternity past.
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    This looks like an assumption about "those who follow the teachings of Jesus" -

    perhaps should read "those who follow the beliefs of men" (and still they are assuming)
     
  4. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Does that verse mean to you that "following the teachings of Jesus" means we need do nothing but have faith in order to get to heaven? It really is a simple question.
     
  5. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Active Member

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    There are approximately 40,000 Christian denominations in the world today. They all claim to posses the one and only truth and each one claims that the others have it all wrong.

    I worry when I read posts where folks claim to have cracked the code. We've had highly educated Bible scholars and theologians, debating and arguing for the past 2,000 years and the result is the Church has fragmented into 40,000 pieces.

    Christ knew this would happen, so He said "let every man be a liar and let God be true".

    Every Christian I know is a work in progress, our view and understanding of the Bible is constantly changing and evolving. Every christian will continue to sin, every day for the rest of his life.

    Christians still retain their sin nature after conversion, so they can't stop sinning because it's impossible for a sinner to stop sinning while he lives in a corrupt body of death.

    I was just paraphrasing Paul above. He talked about the fact that we still have to wrestle against our sin nature every day.

    I think the passage you quoted above, "no one who is born of God continues to sin" needs some clarification. It's obviously not saying that a born again believer inherits a literal sinless state in this life.

    When a person is born again, they inherit trouble. They will be hated by the whole world, they will suffer all kinds of persecution. They will suffer the loss of financial security, they will lose their family and friends and they will most likely be beheaded.

    Christ said that very few will be saved, He said He would turn many "Christians" away on that day and cast them into hell to be tormented in flames forever. Every saved believer will only receive a reward according to his works, so those who produced a small amount of fruit will only receive a small reward.

    God has revealed everything we need to know about Him and His commandments, in the Bible. So we are without excuse, but we would still be without excuse even if we didn't have the Bible. God has revealed Himself through His creation and He wrote His law on our hearts, so all are without excuse.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  6. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    You sound like you've never met someone who trusts in the Lord Jesus.

    Yes. Is that simple enough for you to comprehend?
     
  7. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    That is certainly not so.
    It is the viewpoint of those who hold to that opinion themselves.

    I would assume that you have NOT studied the theology of Weslean Methodism or that of Messianic Judaism.
     
  8. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You sound like someone who, for some reason, would rather make irrelevant comments than answer a simple question.

    Thanks just the same.
     
  9. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    The answer to the question of this thread is actually quite simple. One's fate is eternally secured when God renders His judgment. The question actually comes down to one of two possibilities. Either God has chosen His people from before the foundation of the world and holds them in His hands where none can snatch them away, or He is withholding His judgment in order that His people can prove their salvation to Him.
     
  10. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    The verbs hear and believe are present tense denoting an ongoing sustained action. As long as one does not completely, totally abandon hearing and believing he will be saved, those that do abandoned hearing and believing will be lost, unbelieving is punished Revelation 21:8

    Christians can and do sin, 1 John 1:6-10, Peter sinned in denying Christ. 1 John 3:9 shows the Christian cannot CONTINUE (present tense) to live in sin and not that it is impossible for the Christian to sin.

    It is possible for Christians to fall away becoming false teachers 2 Peter 2:1 so 1 Jn 2:19 cannot be used in a universal sense and can be applied only to those whom John was talking about in that context.

    John does not say they were 'never' of us. Those apostates were one time faithful, fell into error of the gnostics and then were no longer of them and continued to not be of them until they went out.

    (a) faithful for years
    (b) then one day fell away due to false teaching then "not of us"
    (c) continued to not be of us when they went out.

    Again, it does not say they were 'never' of us but says they were not of us when they "went out from us".

    John used these apostates of v 19 as a warning to other Christians "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." verse 24. Those in verse 19 did not let the word remain in them but fell away having followed false teachers and did not continue in the Son or Father. Note the conditional word "if". Such a warning from John in v24 would be useless, pointless if it were impossible for a Christian to fall away and become an apostate. There could be no such thing as an apostate if eternal security were true.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  11. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Rev 21:8 makes no mention of people who were saved by faith, but later becoming unbelievers. "has past from death to life" is permanent by implication. The verb is in the perfect tense of which the lexicon indicates "The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated." Nor can "everlasting life" be everlasting if it ends. But in addition to these the other verses I gave proved saving faith is permanent.

    Didn't say Christians can't sin. You might what to read what I wrote again. But consider the implication. Since as you say Christians cannot continue to live in sin, therefore even if there were a point in time (aorist) event in which they lost faith, you yourself are claiming that they will not continue in unbelief. So there!

    2Peter 2:22 indicates that Peter is referring to those simply pretending to be sheep but never were. They had never been born of God to begin with. While they knew about (epignosis) Jesus, they did not know him (gnosis). So he's not talking about those born of God. And as you admit, those born of God don't continue to live in sin, while Peter describes these as doing so.

    As for your spin on 1John 2:19 you might want to exercise some basic reading comprehension skills. For example the implications of the phrase "for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us" Notice the imperfect tense (had) being use as also it's used in the phrase "they did not really belong to us.". Imperfect tense refers to actions or states continually in effect in the past. So there! If in the past they had really belonged, they would have remained, which they didn't showing that they were merely false brethren all along.
     
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    These large numbers aren't factually accurate, or more accurately they represent a certain kind of peculiar way of counting "denominations" which virtually nobody recognizes in ordinary practice. To get those kinds of numbers involves listing, for example, every regional or national jurisdiction of certain churches, or listing each particular rite. So, for example, we would consider the Roman Catholic Church a single church, but when it comes to the tens of thousands of "denominations" every distinct rite and "particular church" of Roman Catholicism is counted as its own "denomination". Likewise every autocephelous jurisdiction of the Eastern Orthodox Church is counted as its own "denomination". National-level church bodies, even though on the international level are in communion with one another, are counted as their own denomination; so for example the Anglican Communion consists of many Anglican Provinces--the Church of England, the Episcopal Church USA, the Anglican Church of Canada, etc--are again listed as their "denomination".

    A lot of Protestant denominations are nothing more than regional or national-level bodies, which are then in communion with larger international fellowships, for example there are a number of Lutheran synods in the United States, these then usually participate in one of the larger international Lutheran fellowships; e.g. the ELCA is a Lutheran denomination in the United States, but it is part of the Lutheran World Federation. Similar models exist in other Protestant traditions. This means that there are literally hundreds of Lutheran denominations, but for all practical purposes these are almost all national-level synods and national churches (e.g. the Church of Sweden, the Church of Denmark) which cooperate and are in fellowship together across national borders, and thus function as a larger communion.

    The idea that there are tens of thousands of denominations each vying to claim "We're the only true Christians" simply doesn't match reality. Even when it comes to churches of very different traditions, say Baptist and Lutheran, or Methodist and Catholic, there is almost always a recognition of one another's Christianity. We, of course, are going to believe that there is a fullness of Christian faith where we are, otherwise we wouldn't be where we are; but that does not mean a rejection of another's faith in Christ. Which is also why, feet on the ground and throughout the world, churches from different traditions often work together and engage in various interdenominational and ecumenical activities; which is also how we have, for example, the World Council of Churches and other similar organizations which facilitate cooperation between different churches from across traditions.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  13. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Does it matter? God is the judge so when it is secured it is secured. I don't see how the timing is of significance.
     
  14. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Active Member

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    That figure of 40,000 Christian denominations was quoted by a TV news program. I should have done a bit research before quoting it.

    I was trying to make the point that there are many, many different denominations who hold opposing views on the meaning of many important scriptures.

    I was also trying to make the point that most believers will change their view several times on the meaning of many scriptures and the meaning of many bible doctrines. Our beliefs and views change as we mature in the faith.

    Most of the people in my church came out of other denominations, to join us. It's normal to leave a denomination, when you come to realize that it's preaching a false gospel.

    Our church is non denominational and completely autonomous and independent. We try to model our church on the first century apostolic church as much as possible. The Elders preach against ecumenicalism, because it's not Biblical.

    We believe that the Bible is perfectly clear about salvation being of the Lord from start to finish. The only thing man contributes is a totally depraved, sinful, God hating corpse. So nobody can lose their salvation, because God is the One who initiates it and He is the One who finishes it.

    Many denominations add their own perverted view to what the Bible plainly states.
     
  15. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    I am sorry, bcbsr. But Christian faith and theology has not always meant or been interpreted through the lens of OSAS theology. This is quite new.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 2:13 PM
  16. Hammster

    Hammster Sometimes nothin can be a real cool hand. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    That would depend on what’s meant by OSAS.
     
  17. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    Rev 21:8 shows that ANYONE who does not believe will be punished. No verse says it is impossible for a believer to quit believing. The Bible gives examples of those who cast aside their faith, became apostates. Hebrews 4:11 warns Christians about falling into unbelief.

    1 Jn 3:14 "....we have passed from death unto life..."

    The "we" refers to the group called Christian. One must CONDITONALLY be in the group and faithfully remain in this group to have passed from life unto death. If an individual in the group becomes unfaithful he can fall from this group, the group remains passed from life unto death yet this individual no longer does. No such thing in the NT as an individual outside the group who has UNconditionally passed from death unto life.

    The Bible points out that when a Christian sins, he is to repent of that sin and confess "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

    Forgiveness of sins and being cleansed from all unrighteousness for the Christian is CONDTIONAL "IF" we confess our sins. A Christian who sins and remains impenitent of his sins will not be forgiven not be cleansed from his unrighteousness and end up lost.....unless and until he repents and confesses his sins.

    Christians can and do lose their faith and some come back to the faith, others do not.

    1 John 3:9 the idea here is one who becomes a Christian cannot continue to live in sin. It is possible that a Christian can turn to live in sin and remain in that sin. The verse offers no guarantee one who falls awayin unbelief to continue in sin will come back to faith some day. So I am not sure how you came to the conclusion 'that they will not continue in unbelief".



    Peter speaks of those who had been "bought", not might or may have been bought but have for a fact been bought, redeemed.

    verse 15 "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;"

    They could not forsake the right way and go astray if they were always in the wrong way, always astray. Logically, they must have first been in the right way and following Christ for them to for sake the right way and go astray.

    verse 20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

    They could not escape the pollutions of the world thru the knowledge of Christ if they were always in the pollution of this world. How can they become AGAIN entangled if they were always entangled? Logically they must have been in a saved state to escape the pollutions of this world and become AGAIN entangled.

    If they were always lost, never saved, then why would their latter end be worse than the beginning?

    verse 22 "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

    The vomit refers to sin and corruption. They had been 'bought" (verse 1) redeemed, had their sins washed away and forgiven and here they are pictured as eating that sin and corruption. putting that sin and corruption back into themselves after having been forgiven and cleansed of it. They had been washed of their sins and went back to wallowing in those sins That proverb makes no sense if they had never really been saved but always lost.

    In the Bible, it talks about apostates and warns Christians about "falling away". The word 'apostate' and 'fall' imply one's state/position has changed. If I fall from a tree then my position has changed from being in the tree to being on the ground. Those in 2 Peter, their position had changed from being "bought" - cleansed from sin to being back in sin.
    One who was always lost and never saved, his position had not changed, it remains the same.

    The tense does not change what I posted.

    John did not say they were never of us but that were not of us at the time they went out.

    At some point in the past they quit being of us and continued ("continually in effect in the past") to not be of us when they went out from us. Again, those in 2 Peter had been bought and cleansed in the past but at some point they did not let the word of God continue in them but followed error, went back to wallowing in sin. They were of us but at some point in time they quit being of us, so it cannot be said they were never of us.

    Again, why the warning of 1 John 2:24 if it were impossible for the Christian to quit "being of us"?

    Even if I take your position that those of 1 Jn 2:19 were NEVER of us, then all this verse proves is that one who was never saved...was never saved. The verse does not prove that it is impossible for the Christian to all away.

    "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

    The pronoun "they" refers back to the antecedent "antichrists' in verse 18.

    The verse says "THEY (those specific antichrists) were not all of us". The verse does NOT say ALL who go out are not of us. So it cannot be used in a universal sense but just includes those specific antichrists John was talking about.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019 at 1:46 PM
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