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When is Jesus coming?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by JohnR7, Mar 29, 2002.

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  1. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    John, It seems to me that you started this thread with the assumption that people who participate in discussing Biblical prophecy are not leading souls to Christ. It looks like an insult to those who participate in the prophecy forum provided here.
    That assumption should apply to every section that isn't labeled,"soul winning techniques".
    How can one be winning souls for Christ if they are constantly admonishing Christians ,who are already saved, for discussing Bible prophecy?
    FYI, the people I know who enjoy discussing prophecy and other aspects of the Bible, also win souls for Christ.
    Rev.19:10- "... for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy".
    We have Jesus' persmission to discuss prophecy. I cannot imagine where someone would get the idea that "People who discuss prophecy don't win souls to Christ". That statement is no more logical or truthful than to say, " People who discuss Paul's writings are not winning souls to Christ", or "People who discuss the Holy Spirit are not winning souls to Christ". None of these statements make any sense, nor are any scriptural.
    If it was not your intention to insinuate that by discussing prophecy we are not winning souls to CHrist, or not being good Christians, then I apologize for misunderstanding your first post here.
    With LOve, Debbie
  2. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    I personally don't believe that the end-time great tribulation has started yet, as I don't believe passages such as 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 13 and Revelation 11 and Revelation 16, etc., have been fulfilled yet.

    Never has any man ever been worshipped by all the inhabitants of the earth (Revelation 13:8), or had a False Prophet who called fire down from heaven in the sight of men (Revelation 13:13) and made a speaking image of him that must be worshipped on the pain of death (Revelation 13:14-15), and caused a mark to be put on their hand "or" forehead that they might not buy or sell without it (Revelation 13:16-17), which mark may be the name of the man or the number of his name, which is 666 (Revelation 13:17-18). None of this has been fulfilled.

    Justin Martyr (100-165) spoke of the coming of the Antichrist as an event yet in the future: "He whom Daniel foretells would have dominion for a time, and times, and an half, is even already at the door, about to speak blasphemous and daring things against the Most High" (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 32).

    As did Irenaeus of Lyons (130-202): "But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation" (Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses, Book 5, Chapter 30).

    As did Hippolytus: "It is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time that implores one shall be revealed; and whence and from what tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in the Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be" (Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 5).

    As did Cyprian (about 250 A.D.): "Nor let it disturb you, dearest brethren, if with some, in these last times, either an uncertain faith is wavering, or a fear of God without religion is vacillating, or a peaceable concord does not continue. These things have been foretold as about to happen in the end of the world; and it was predicted by the voice of the Lord, and by the testimony of the apostles, that now that the world is failing, and the Antichrist is drawing near, everything good shall fail, but evil and adverse things shall prosper" (Cyprian, Epistles 67.7). "Even Antichrist, when he shall begin to come, shall not enter into the Church because he threatens… They endeavour to imitate the coming of Antichrist, who is now approaching" (Cyprian, Epistles 54.19).

    Christ's 2nd coming will be "immediately" after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), will be seen by every eye (Revelation 1:7), will bring the resurrection and rapture of the entire church (1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

    I believe we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds on his way down to set his feet on the earth. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven.

    I don't believe the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

    Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41). Christ will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).

    Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

    "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

    Here I believe Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe he taught a 3rd coming.

    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense).

    Note that Peter refers to the "day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" as the day the heavens and earth will vanish (2 Peter 3:7-10), just as Revelation 20:11-15:1 says will happen after the millenium at the great white throne judgment of all unbelievers. So he is not referring to only the 2nd coming itself, which is the day of the Lord we are told to wait for (1 Corinthians 1:7-8), but to what will happen at the end of the "thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8).

    We know that Peter wasn’t referring to only the 2nd coming itself because only the current world system will end at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 7:31). The earth itself won’t be destroyed, but instead renewed into Edenic perfection during the millenium (Matthew 19:28; Isaiah 51:3, 30:23-25).

    The end of the world will bring the restoration of the earth, for Christ will come to "destroy those who destroy the earth" (Revelation 11:18), and to bring us back into right relation with it (Micah 4:4, Isaiah 32:14-20).

  3. niwde

    niwde Member

    u call urself christian
    he can come anytime that is y
    he asked us to be steadfast and prepared
    actually as u said
    the gospel must reach all the nations of the earth
    and in reality it has
    so anything to say?
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

    Hi Postrib:

    Those Church fathers you quoted had a sensationalistic eschatological perspective that was denounced as heresy a couple hundred years after the end they constantly predicted never materialized. In fact, the rest of Christianity in those days was Amillennial and also believed the great tribulation was past. We see Eusebius, John Chrysostom, Augustine and many others correctly assign the tribulation to 66-70AD.

    We know from the scriptures themselves that the great tribulation is past, for Luke 21:20-22 assigns it to the fall of Jerusalem.

    Concerning the 2 Thess 2 passage -- it also was stated by Augustine that many believed it spoke of a 1st century fulfillment because the passage itself shows the action already taking place at the time Paul was writing.

    These things are not in our future. They are in our past.
  5. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    >>John, It seems to me that you started this thread with the assumption that

    Debbie, my wife does not even fully know my heart, but you think you do? Well good, why don't you get together with my wife so you can explain me to her.

    But first, why don't you pray, and ask the Holy Spirit of God to search out my heart, and reveil it to you. Because you are going to know nothing about me, 'tell the Holy Spirit of God reveils it to you.

    What I said was, don't look to your man made calander to try and determine when Jesus is going to return. Yes, the age of grace is 2000 years, but our calander is not accurate enough to go by. Rather look to God and look to see the work He is doing, through the Holy Spirit as a more accurate way to determine when Jesus is going to come.

    Jesus said that I must be about my father's business. If you are feeling convicted that you are not going about doing your Father's business, then maybe it is the Holy Spirit of God tugging on your heart stings.

    Or as my pastor said, I bet you people think I am talking about you. Well, your right, I am no dummy, I am not going to talk to people who are not here to talk to, what good would that do, they are not here for me to help them. Thanks, JohnR7
  6. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    I don't believe the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

    We can be prepared for Jesus' coming by faithfully working until he comes (Luke 19:13) in that work which he has given each of us to do for him (Mark 13:34), so that we might not be the wicked, lazy servant that he will reject at his coming (Matthew 25:26-30). All believers will be judged by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10) at the 2nd coming (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27).

    We can be prepared for the tribulation that must come before Jesus comes by knowing beforehand everything that must happen, so that our faith will not be blindsided by anything that happens (Mark 13:23), and by remaining repentant from every sin and in daily service to Christ so that our faith will not be on the sand when the storm hits (Matthew 7:26-27).

    Justin Martyr (born circa 100 A.D.) taught a literal millenium in Chapters 80-81 of his work "Dialogue with Tryphon." "I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare." (Chapter 80)

    "There was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place." (Chapter 81)

    Irenaeus (born circa 130 A.D.) also taught a literal millenium in Chapters 32-35 of Book 5 of his work "Against Heresies." "It behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous." (Chapter 32)

    "If, then, God promised [Abraham] the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just." (Chapter 32)

    "'I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.' ... He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit" (Chapter 33). "These things are borne witness to in writing by [Bishop] Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp [died 155]" (Chapter 33).

    Again, I personally don't believe that the end-time great tribulation has started yet, as I don't believe passages such as 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 13 and Revelation 11 and Revelation 16, etc., have been fulfilled yet.

    Christ's 2nd coming will be "immediately" after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), will be seen by every eye (Revelation 1:7), will bring the resurrection and rapture of the entire church (1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

  7. SenseiPiccolo

    SenseiPiccolo Well-Known Member

    the appearance, life, death and resurrection of Jesus was almost 2000 years ago...

    SOON and VERY SOON we are going to see the King--
    were 2000 years closer to seeing Him--
  8. LyleMetsker

    LyleMetsker <font color=green><b>V.I.P. Member</b></font>

    According to my favorite writer, J. Preston Eby, the coming of Jesus, i.e. the manifestation of the Sons of God, is imminent!

    Links to over 100 Christian message boards at:
    Home of the Christian Message Board Network!
  9. GW

    GW Veteran

    Hi Postrib. All you need to do is read your own bible to see that 2 Thess 2 was bound to a 1st century event that was already well underway at the time Paul was writing:

    The "man of lawlessness/the son of perdition" was being restrained from siezing control of Herod's Temple in Jerusalem at the time Paul was writing to the Thessalonians (2 Thess 2:6-7). This man's lawlessness was already at work in the nation of Israel in Paul's day; only he who then restrained this anarchy continued to do so until he was taken out of the way. And then the lawless one was revealed (2 Thess 2:7-8). This, of course, took place at the Jerusalem Temple within about 10 years of Paul's writing.

    The Thessalonian congregation actually knew personally who was at that time restraining the son of perdition from taking control of the Temple -- "And you know what restrains him now" (2 Thess 2:6).

    So the passage has a fulfillment clearly contemporary with Paul and the 1st century Thessalonians as Paul stated.

    I'm sorry to say, but we cannot just say "I don't believe Paul" and continue to claim we are followers of Christ. Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, states that the son of perdition was AT THAT TIME being restrained. And, the one that was restraining his move to the Temple WOULD CONTINUE TO DO SO...

    Brother, this is past. It is not in our future. We have the sure words of St. Paul on it.

    With you in the victory of Christ,
  10. niwde

    niwde Member

    y can't all of u believe that he is coming anytime
    Jesus did say that bad things will happen only after then he will come
    does this means that without these "ugly"things happening we can say he will not come unless all these take place
    in a message he told blessed Faustina
    that he wants all souls to be in his mercy because the end is about to come
    but we shall not predict when is he coming
    and i think those churches who predict his second coming is from the devil
    all of those fellows who come out with nonsense that says christ will come in so and so date
    are of these are rubbish talking
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States
    John Disagrees with that view, stating that at the time he wrote Revelation, THE tribluation was in fact underway and he was a partner in it.

    Revelation 1:9
    "I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    And it was.
    And it was "seen" Just as Gods arm was "seen" by the eyes of all nations way back in Isaiah 52:10

    And it did do just that.

    Oops, sorry, no such thing as "antichrist" mentioned, implied or even eluded to anywhere in 1 Thess.
    Pauls Man of Sin is a unique individual who had absolutely nothing to do with John's teaching on Antichrist. The Traditions of man alone turn the man of sin into the antichrist, but scripture does not support such a twist.

  12. niwde

    niwde Member

    whether u believe or not he will come anytime
    if u are a true believer u dun need signs to affirm u
    it is up to ui
  13. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    I believe the great tribulation will take place once the abomination of desolation (as spoke by Daniel) is set up, in the holy city of Jerusalem. It is written that for three and a half years, christians would be able to worship God again in the temple, (the daily sacrifice) which means the Dome of the rock (muslem temple) would have to be removed. Look at what is happening over there now, as we speak.
    <If> Israel dominates that area, and seizes control of the holy site, we may all bear witness to prophecy.

    Settle it therefore within your heart.
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