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When is abortion - homicide, when is murder of a human not homicide?

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by BobRyan, Dec 5, 2021.

  1. rturner76

    rturner76 Domine non-sum dignus Supporter

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    Whatever you want to call it, it;s not a baby until it can breathe. Until then it is a symbiote attached to the mother until the time of maturity.
     
  2. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    If the baby does not agree to its nap time, does that make putting it down child abuse?

    If the prisoner does not agree to being strapped down and injected with potassium chloride, does that make capital punishment murder?

    The answer to both questions is "no."

    "Homicide" is the legal term for an unlawful killing. Homicide in the heat of the moment is "manslaughter." Homicide with malice aforethought is "murder."
     
  3. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Any time a life is taken it's called homicide- which is a legal term.

    There are different categories of homicide; justifiable homicide (self defense), there is accidental homicide often called manslaughter where there is fault involved (such as having a car accident while under the influence which results in someone's death), and then there is murder, premeditated or otherwise.

    Justifiable homicide where abortion is concerned would be to save the life of the mother, which I believe would also extend to a young girl who became pregnant as a result of rape (whether as a result of incest or otherwise) before she became old enough to safely carry a child.

    Other than that there's no other standing for abortion to be called justified... Abortion on demand is just murder... Premeditated murder at that.

    The murder of a pregnant woman has always in this country been classified as a double homicide because in this country we see a pregnant woman as carrying a living person...

    Abortion being legal doesn't change that...
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Well technically that is not true - because whenever I step on a living bug and kill it - law enforcement does not charge me with homicide.

    So then I presume you mean "when ever a human life is taken it is homicide".

    And more specifically - since we do not declare a funeral or claim a murder has taken place whenever someone loses a finger - even though it is a human finger, and even though that amputated finger does die... the term "human life" is reference the "person".

    And this is a key point.

    Indeed - that protects the value of human life of both persons - by admitting that "A" killing the baby is a homicide, and "B" when forced to choose such that only one person will come out of this alive - the preference is for the life of the mother. (though scientifically that scenario no longer exists).

    'Safely' as in - "Would not survive"?

    There you have it.


    Yep - it is like "we know it is murder on the one hand" but then on the other hand we see arguments coming up in defense of abortion - that would also wipe out "double homicide" charges since the claim is made that the Baby is not alive to begin with.


    True - but that double homicide scenario calls into question the fantasy that one of them is not a living person.
     
  5. CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

    CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN CT Scans shows my dad's cancer is gone.

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    Actually, a woman posted a video of an abortion being done. On this forum. I didn't see no legs, or anything being pulled off. If was too small to see to the limbs or what other graphic nonsense you want to claim. And this was a typical abortion.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Is there an argument here that if a baby inside the womb wants a nap it must be denied but if it is outside the womb it must always be granted? I have not seen such a claim so far...
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    In this picture what we see is the person that some liberals say can be killed if at least two people vote for it and yet many conservatives argue in favor of the life of this baby.

    This is the baby as of the end of first trimester - up to 13 weeks (For those who say they would not be able to recognize baby "parts" in a surgical abortion procedure)



    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    from; U.S. Abortion Statistics

    WHY DO ABORTIONS OCCUR?
    In 2004, the Guttmacher Institute anonymously surveyed 1,209 post-abortive women from nine different abortion clinics across the country. Of the women surveyed, 957 provided a main reason for having an abortion. This table lists each reason and the percentage of respondents who chose it.
    Percentage Reason
    <0.5% Victim of rape
    3% Fetal health problems
    4% Physical health problems
    4% Would interfere with education or career
    7% Not mature enough to raise a child
    8% Don't want to be a single mother
    19% Done having children
    23% Can't afford a baby
    25% Not ready for a child
    6% Other
    ==========================

    so then <= 7.5% related to health or rape... ​
     
  9. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    I think it is necessary to address the substance of a person's argument rather than looking for loopholes in the way a word is defined.

    Perhaps the OP would suggest that the second definition of murder provided below (to slaughter wantonly) is the one that applies to abortion?

    I don't wish to use the word murder in talking about abortion, but I cannot dismiss the use of the word based solely upon a single government's decision about its legal status. If the US Supreme Court were to rule that abortion is illegal, would all subsequent abortions suddenly become murder? Were the abortions prior to the Supreme Court's ruling in Roe V Wade murders but all those after not any a case of murder? Either a particular abortion is murder, or it is not. I would say something can be classified as murder based upon what our rational minds convince us murder i and not based solely upon what some government decides is legal or not.

    I don't see how trying to make a case based upon one truncated definition ignoring all other uses of the word is helpful in discussing the issue. One could point out that the defense that "I was following the then legal orders of the government at the time" was not accepted at Nuremburg. Which suggests that the definition of murder as unlawful can indeed transcend what any particular government or governmental body says is lawful. In the US prior to Roe v Wade there were multiple governments proclaiming things about abortion. some making abortion legal and other governments proclaiming it illegal. Did that mean that there was murder being committed in some states and not others despite the fact that the action was exactly the same? Can one rationally conclude that the exact same act is either murder or it isn't no matter which government decides whether to make it legal or illegal?





    Murder Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

    Definition of murder (Entry 2 of 2)

    transitive verb

    1: to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice
    2: to slaughter wantonly : SLAY
    3a: to put an end to
    b: TEASE, TORMENT
    c: MUTILATE, MANGLEmurders French
    d: to defeat badly
     
  10. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    Why does what a baby wants only matter when its inside the womb? Is it "survival of the fittest" once they're out?
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    The OP is showing us that we already have cases with criminal charges specific to killing the baby are filed for those who kill unborn babies as part of killing the mother or wounding the mother

    I think a lot of people share your wish - but as we see in the examples of charges filed for killing the unborn baby - not all wishes get granted in every case.:)

    To your point we all prefer more calming terms like "remove the pregnancy" and "remove all the tissue of the pregnancy" when possible as "nice terms" for what is really being done there.

    What is more the argument essentially gets down to "yes but did they kill the unborn baby with a bullet or with a knife - because one of them would be homicide - and the other would not if done by a professional in that field"

    Good question. Does the value of human life rest solely with the "Majority 5-4 vote" at the level of Supreme Court - year-by-year?

    In communist countries human life is defined by the government to have very little value under certain circumstances.

    Good point. The moral ethics of the situation does not change depending on "how many people favor the wrong idea" as we saw in the case of Nazi Germany. lesson learned.

    Precisely - a relative morality dictated by the "nice" vs "not-so-nice" state of government is fickle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    are you thinking that babies that were not aborted in the womb - want to be aborted as soon as they get out?
     
  13. rambot

    rambot Senior Member

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    Why is there a discussion of what a fetus wants? It's not sentient and has no concept of self awareness nor any idea of what it is or whether or not it is "alive".
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  14. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Babies can kick as soon as 16 weeks. They’re not alive?
     
  15. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    That’s completely irrelevant what does breathing have to do with life? The baby receives its oxygen from the mother who is breathing for it.
     
  16. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    That is a strange assumption for one to make. It certainly does not agree with the definition of sentient in conjunction with some of the latest scientific evidence.

    sentient
    [ˈsen(t)SH(ē)ənt]
    ADJECTIVE
    1. able to perceive or feel things.
      "she had been instructed from birth in the equality of all sentient life forms"
    does a fetus feel pain at 12 weeks - Bing

    For a qualified opinion on the subject, I like the following opinion piece.

    A Science Lesson for Justice Sotomayor | Opinion



    Although I don't understand why trying to ascertain what a fetus wants should be the foundation of one's view on abortion, I think it is highly likely that fetuses are sentient life forms.
     
  17. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    That’s just the name for a different stage of development it doesn’t determine whether or not the baby is alive or not, there’s 6 different stages fetus, infant, toddler, child, adolescent, and adult.
     
  18. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Then why is it considered a double homicide if someone kills a pregnant woman?
     
  19. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    I'm not sure a baby wants to do much of anything except eat, cry, and defecate... is it abusive to force them to do anything else?
     
  20. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    Sometimes it isn't -- it varies from state to state, and on how far along the pregnancy is.
     
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