:::When Is 1 Cor 5:11 Taken Too Far?

[NDL]

(Please delete)

 

[NDL]

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[Serving Zion]

(Deleted at OP's request).

.. It sounds like you've got a bit more peace of mind, and that's a good thing, but I'm not 100% sure by reading this whether there is something still unresolved that maybe some more words could help with. So just let me know your present thoughts. Thanks

 

[hedrick]

Hedrick: Thanks for sharing your thoughts .

I agree that sin cannot be ignored; a congregation that tolerates sin will be unfruitful (to say the least).

Remember, I said that there are sins that are sufficiently visible that to ignore them is to give a bad witness. Obviously we can't and shouldn't deal with every sin. For privacy reasons I'm not going to describe the situations we've dealt with. But in one case it could have been resolved by an apology. The other was more difficult, and resolution would have required significant work.

 

[NDL]

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[NDL]

Hedrick: Thank you for your time, friend, and for your thoughtful reply . I agree with what you've said.

Your desire to help me brings a grateful heart. Thank you.

 

[klutedavid]

I posted this on another forum, and thought it might be more appropriate to post it here:

****
I don't know how to write what's on my heart.

I have real issues with the Church. This is a struggle for me, as I really don't like the conduct of those within the Church, and in this I speak to two separate issues:

There is a "herd" mentality in the Church, but not towards things that are necessarily Biblical. I once attended a Calvary Chapel, and the Pastor had a lot of opinions in areas that fell on issues outside of the Bible. Example: he would sometimes pontificate about a specific politician, and the issues that that politician championed. I didn't like the politician, nor was I zealous to pursue the goals of this politician. I likewise didn't care for several news sites that this Pastor used for source material. Again, many of the issues discussed involved world affairs, etc., that fell into "gray" areas.

All that said: the Pastor is free to champion whatever issues he wants (so long as they don't run contrary to Scripture). The issue, however, wasn't so much that the Pastor championed certain issues; the problem is that *I did not agree* with the issues that he championed. I was not disruptive in disagreeing, nor was I disrespectful when I expressed my disagreement. But if you asked me "NDL, how do you feel about such and such," I will tell you. And when you run afoul of the established pattern, people disfellowship themselves with you.

Again, I am not talking about anything Scriptural. Calvary Chapels tend to spend a lot of time analyzing world events, and they often comment to boot. And they are free to do so. The issue I have, is that I am not free to disagree - and I am not talking about disagreeing in a disruptive way, or causing factions or divisions - for to do that is wrong. I am simply saying that in many gray areas, the very act of *not being on board* is a problem; the herd will not allow individual thought. You *will* be excluded. Again, to be clear, I have been disenfranchised over silly issues. I am not a calvanist, but I am do love the work of John MacArthur. I once had a Pastor have a problem with me, as I didn't share in his zeal against calvinism (as much as I told him that I wasn't a calvinist). Fill in the blank. Pick an issue. Pre trib? Post trib? Dividing over such matters is silly. But...you'd *better* agree; you'd better be a part of the herd! If not, you will be excluded from social events, etc. You'll find yourself outside of the "inner circle."

The second issue I have revolves around 1 Cor 5:11:

"But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person."

Okay. Let's be honest: everyone has their good days and their bad days. I am not speaking of public sin, or gross immorality. I am not a carnal believer. But I do have my struggles, and I do have my good and bad days (Pro 27:16). I wish that it were not so, and I do try to yield myself to the Spirit, in obedience to the Scriptures. But sometimes I trip up.

Ideally, a believer is to be treated with grace and charity. Scripture commands us to bear one another's burdens (Gal 6:2), and I wish that this were so.

But it's not.

Someone filled with spiritual pride is marked by certain behaviors (Is 65:5, and Luke 18:11-12). I do not think that the people of whom I speak are filled with pride, but I do think that they are somehow thinking themselves obedient to 1 Cor 5:11. But what happened to bearing another's burdens?

Again. I am not speaking to gross sin or public immorality, but if we're honest, we all have good days and bad days. And sometimes, you might come into the company of a Brother or Sister, who might detect that you had a bad day (or so). And then comes the distancing of one's self.

On again off again. "Draw near to me; go away from me." "Are you in with the herd, or do you color outside the lines?"

Please don't read into this more than what i've said; I have tried to be as transparent as possible.

My Wife & I have been married 17 years, and have a great relationship. I likewise have good relationships with our Parents. I have had a good working relationship with my employers.

But with the church I am disgusted. I am weary of the silliness, and the lack of grace and forbearance. No one is perfect; we all have our bad and good days. We all have liberty of thought regarding topics outside of Scripture (Romans 14). The only reason I have been going to church is out of obedience (Heb 3:13; Luke 19:12-22). I had a couple of great friends in the Lord when I lived in NY (men who were disciples, and abounded in love, grace, and charity); it's been 5 years since we've moved to NC, and I have no real relationships within the church. If I could, I would never go to church again.

I do not understand why people in the church behave in the above ways. No matter what church you go to, it's all the same. And I am weary of going through the motions. It's very silly and shallow. If not for Hebrews 3:13, I would keep to myself and study (which I do almost daily).

Thanks for your time, and God bless

I agree with you.

On the subject of good and bad days, how we treat others and how they treat us?

Matthew 18:21-22
Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

 

[Serving Zion]

(Deleted at OP's request).

I don't believe that it can remain that way forever (eg: Matthew 21:42-44, 1 Peter 1:10-16).

This age is limited (Matthew 28:20, Daniel 2:44, Daniel 7:22). You might further consider Amos 5:18 and Revelation 22:11 within that context, as they seem to apply quite well to this thread.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I posted this on another forum, and thought it might be more appropriate to post it here:

****
I don't know how to write what's on my heart.

I have real issues with the Church. This is a struggle for me, as I really don't like the conduct of those within the Church, and in this I speak to two separate issues:

There is a "herd" mentality in the Church, but not towards things that are necessarily Biblical. I once attended a Calvary Chapel, and the Pastor had a lot of opinions in areas that fell on issues outside of the Bible. Example: he would sometimes pontificate about a specific politician, and the issues that that politician championed. I didn't like the politician, nor was I zealous to pursue the goals of this politician. I likewise didn't care for several news sites that this Pastor used for source material. Again, many of the issues discussed involved world affairs, etc., that fell into "gray" areas.

All that said: the Pastor is free to champion whatever issues he wants (so long as they don't run contrary to Scripture). The issue, however, wasn't so much that the Pastor championed certain issues; the problem is that *I did not agree* with the issues that he championed. I was not disruptive in disagreeing, nor was I disrespectful when I expressed my disagreement. But if you asked me "NDL, how do you feel about such and such," I will tell you. And when you run afoul of the established pattern, people disfellowship themselves with you.

Again, I am not talking about anything Scriptural. Calvary Chapels tend to spend a lot of time analyzing world events, and they often comment to boot. And they are free to do so. The issue I have, is that I am not free to disagree - and I am not talking about disagreeing in a disruptive way, or causing factions or divisions - for to do that is wrong. I am simply saying that in many gray areas, the very act of *not being on board* is a problem; the herd will not allow individual thought. You *will* be excluded. Again, to be clear, I have been disenfranchised over silly issues. I am not a calvanist, but I am do love the work of John MacArthur. I once had a Pastor have a problem with me, as I didn't share in his zeal against calvinism (as much as I told him that I wasn't a calvinist). Fill in the blank. Pick an issue. Pre trib? Post trib? Dividing over such matters is silly. But...you'd *better* agree; you'd better be a part of the herd! If not, you will be excluded from social events, etc. You'll find yourself outside of the "inner circle."

The second issue I have revolves around 1 Cor 5:11:

"But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person."

Okay. Let's be honest: everyone has their good days and their bad days. I am not speaking of public sin, or gross immorality. I am not a carnal believer. But I do have my struggles, and I do have my good and bad days (Pro 27:16). I wish that it were not so, and I do try to yield myself to the Spirit, in obedience to the Scriptures. But sometimes I trip up.

Ideally, a believer is to be treated with grace and charity. Scripture commands us to bear one another's burdens (Gal 6:2), and I wish that this were so.

But it's not.

Someone filled with spiritual pride is marked by certain behaviors (Is 65:5, and Luke 18:11-12). I do not think that the people of whom I speak are filled with pride, but I do think that they are somehow thinking themselves obedient to 1 Cor 5:11. But what happened to bearing another's burdens?

Again. I am not speaking to gross sin or public immorality, but if we're honest, we all have good days and bad days. And sometimes, you might come into the company of a Brother or Sister, who might detect that you had a bad day (or so). And then comes the distancing of one's self.

On again off again. "Draw near to me; go away from me." "Are you in with the herd, or do you color outside the lines?"

Please don't read into this more than what i've said; I have tried to be as transparent as possible.

My Wife & I have been married 17 years, and have a great relationship. I likewise have good relationships with our Parents. I have had a good working relationship with my employers.

But with the church I am disgusted. I am weary of the silliness, and the lack of grace and forbearance. No one is perfect; we all have our bad and good days. We all have liberty of thought regarding topics outside of Scripture (Romans 14). The only reason I have been going to church is out of obedience (Heb 3:13; Luke 19:12-22). I had a couple of great friends in the Lord when I lived in NY (men who were disciples, and abounded in love, grace, and charity); it's been 5 years since we've moved to NC, and I have no real relationships within the church. If I could, I would never go to church again.

I do not understand why people in the church behave in the above ways. No matter what church you go to, it's all the same. And I am weary of going through the motions. It's very silly and shallow. If not for Hebrews 3:13, I would keep to myself and study (which I do almost daily).

Thanks for your time, and God bless

I have been hurt more by those in the church than any on the outside world. I suppose it is because I believed the church would be the one place that I could go where people would show love and kindness.....I even had a pastor of one church I attended come to my house wanting to have a "relationship" with me. (he was married).....I finally came to the point I was better off not going to church. Then I prayed and asked God about this....He said even pastors and fellow Christians fail, don't put your faith in men but keep your eyes on Jesus and He will never fail you. I have since learned to pray for my pastor and fellow Christians and let God deal with them....and in turn to deal with me on my attitude towards them...lol. It isn't going to ever be "perfect" but we can gain more by living the example rather than expecting others to be the example.

 

[NDL]

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[NDL]

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[NDL]

Serving Zion: I shudder when I consider the realities put forth by Amos 5:18-24 & Revelation 22:11, both for myself and for others, for my own works are imperfect, and my own walk is marred by flaws.

I have likewise marveled at the church, who thinks that their behavior is acceptable, and that this will continue forever.

All in all, I was greatly comforted on this thread, simply because you and others participated. I was likewise comforted by the Scriptures, instead of my concerns being shrugged off by clichés. Spending time in Philippians 1:12-20 has likewise helped. I thank you again, friend.

 

[NDL]

(Please delete)