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:::When Is 1 Cor 5:11 Taken Too Far?

Discussion in 'Discipleship: Following Jesus' started by NDL, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. NDL

    NDL Member

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    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. salt-n-light

    salt-n-light Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So here's the thing.

    Personally, I'm in a church where I do plan to leave for the similar reason you're leaving, because essentially parts of the service is pretty unbiblical, and in my conscious I can't stay. Difference between the time I decided this and now, was my heart towards the idea of a church assembly. It became very easy to criticize that ALL church assemblies are the same, because everyone is not this or not that. God called me out, and such and such, and I can just find a couple of people and I'll be better off. And that may be so. But I would warn you to be careful of how you perceive the assembly. For if your isolation of the church, is due to things beyond just because its unbiblical, if it is causing you to be bitter towards people, then you wouldn't be more in the right than if you have stayed.

    For me, no set size of assembly is right or wrong, each have their own problems, whether its only 2-3 or 3,000. For you it probably is better to be among a more intimate setting, but for another, they may need that type of resource and accessibility that a bigger church is able to bring. For the bigger assemblies, Paul established some sort of structure so that there is some order and the church is edified. Being in a small group may be in seasons, it might happen for a longer time. But what would be more of a concern is spiritual bitterness, that somehow whatever decision you make is a valid case to curse out the people who choose to stick to a different route than yours. It is not.

    Im sorry that your church experience have left you discouraged and disgusted, but let that not make you bitter towards those who are running the same race as you. Even if you do separated yourself, remember those who have actually done you well, for I doubt you stayed because everyone was horrible to you. And pray for them, and keep in touch with them. At the end of the day, no matter how disobedient you feel they are, they are still part of the body of Christ, they are still your brothers and sisters.

    Be encouraged.
     
  3. Papa DSNM

    Papa DSNM New Member

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    Hello There:
    You are absolutely right and I agree with you about having good days and bad days. All of us do if we are honest with ourselves. We do fall short many times as Paul stated. But Paul in what he was stating at 1 Co 5:11 was not just talking about casually falling short as we often do. If you examine the context you will see that he was talking about Christians who practice wickedness. As you probably know wickedness is a more serious situation than mere "slip-ups" or weakness. A Christian who refuses to stop serious sinning should be removed from the congregation as a warning to other Christians and to safeguard the cleanliness of it. It is a command that not many religions practice, but it is based on scriptural precedent. I will be glad to share more with you on this if your mind and heart are open to it.
     
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  4. NDL

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  5. NDL

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  6. pilgrimage

    pilgrimage going home

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    That's very good advise.
     
  7. NDL

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  8. Swan7

    Swan7 Made in the image of His Grace Supporter

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    The church we have today is certainly not like the first church that we read about in the Bible.

    It took me a long time to realize this, but with God’s help, He shown me why I stopped going to the church I grew up in. At the time, I didn’t understand the full reason except that there was “something wrong” within that church. Something that just wasn’t adding up and years later He told me why. The love of many had waxed cold.

    I’ve had similar experiences like this throughout my life that something just felt… off.

    During my journey with God, He’s pulled me away from certain churches, heck He’s even tested me with two certain ones, and I realized that I can’t search for one on my own. I needed His help because He sees all and knows all. Who better to ask than Him? I know He wants us to come together as a church - His churchbride. It’s not just about Him and myself in a relationship but with the community as well. God eventually ushered myself and my dad to a new church that does indeed deliver the message.

    But it’s also difficult today for churches because many who are seeking - where do they go to learn? Church. However, sometimes this doesn’t work and we have to invite those who seek God rather than push them away. God does not want any to perish and yet many will. Many walk the wide path to destruction and few find the narrow path to Truth and Life Whom is Christ.

    As for the puffiness of knowledge, this is exactly why I didn’t like “Christians”. They were so uninviting and cold and distant rather than Jesus. They acted the complete opposite of Christ Who invited those to follow Him who would hear. This is exactly why I didn’t want to even be associated with those “christians” because I didn’t want to be like them, the spirit of Pharisees. My error in this way of thinking was my following. I didn’t realize I was following only what people of the world were saying rather than relying solely and fully dependant on God’s ways. His ways are much higher than ours - and thank God for that!

    I also experience the “pride” in knowledge of what God says in the Bible and I hate it when my flesh wants to pervert that into something to look down on others with. I’ve experienced it a lot and it’s why I can’t participate on these forums much anymore. I know how I ought to be and yet I can’t seem to do them…. Matthew 26:41 & Romans 7:14-25

    ***
    Sorry this is so long... I just want to follow Christ and have a passion for Him, for the covenant He has given us by His grace, faith and belief (in Jesus Christ). There is truly nothing we can do apart from Him.
     
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  9. NDL

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  10. Swan7

    Swan7 Made in the image of His Grace Supporter

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    Lol, I didn't take anything you said as harsh or arrogant.

    I do feel stuck, but I'm only as stuck as I want to be. I know this. I suppose I have forgotten His message to me in a dream earlier this month. Perhaps there is more in that message than what He previously wanted me to see, if that makes sense.

    I have to agree with you on our poor quality, however. If you think about how Paul was Sol (I think that's the spelling?), persecuting and pretty much hunting Christians, Jesus came as a blinding light to him and asked him very humbly "Sol, Sol, why do you persecute Me?" Even Jesus had shown mercy and compassion for someone who was previously against Him! How utterly Amazing! Do a lot of us behave in this way? No. But if we just let Him in, He can do this through us! ^_^

    Sorry, getting a bit off track.

    My point is (and for those like myself who was just lurk-reading) that Sol whom became Paul was educated for 3 years, I think. Is the church today educated like Paul was then? Absolutely not. However, there are people out there like the church back then. We're just scattered ever since Christ's death - our Shepard - and yet brought back together through His grace. Like your best friend, Peter, for example.

    I really hope all this makes sense as I do have a hard time trying to convey what is in my heart and what I see. Thanks for the encouragement, brother/sister.
    :angel:
     
  11. NDL

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  12. Swan7

    Swan7 Made in the image of His Grace Supporter

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    Oh gosh no, lol! We all have our challenges. ^_^ Even Paul had his thorn in his side. Even Jesus prayed that the "cup" to be passed from Him. Heck, most of the prophets of God had their moments of pure struggle.
    Ahhh, yes. I have SO been there! I'm willing to give an ear for those who say "hey, this isn't right." if they're being respectful and not outright being disrespectful. I only care what God says about His Word and also His churchbride - the congregation - spiritual Israel. Not just them, but those that have ears to hear.

    :runcry: Thank you! I think I'm actually feeling less stuck due to this conversation. Perhaps this is God saying to me: take it slow, but keep pressing forward.

    Spoken very true and also a reflection of how I feel as well. Before I came back to God I used to think that I had to DO something to get His approval, love and belonging. I was lied to for years with this thinking! I just wish I went face to face with God a long time ago, but, I can't linger in this thought because otherwise it's no different than being Lot's wife. She didn't want to press forward and looked back. I don't want to look back save only the things God has done in my life. :) I think this is part of the reason why God allows me to only look back for those things He's done, to keep me from being spiritually prideful.

    I don't mean to counsel, but merely share my experiences with you and hope they resonate with you. If I am counseling then I believe God is allowing it through His child to another - just as He said we should be uplifting one another.

    Thanks again for reading! This thread is certainly a good one!
     
  13. MarleneJ

    MarleneJ Member

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    Then, there is the question of moving churches too often, and for what reason. I'm speaking of myself.

    We had to move churches about 6 years ago, because the pastor just went totally off track. In fact, almost everyone in the church left. We later decided, many of us still being close friends, that the pastor should have left, not all of us. Well, water under the bridge.

    So, we found a "better" church, and got involved. Then, we sold our house and moved 500 miles away. We looked around, found a church that was an excellent fit. After about 6 months, the pastor, who was an excellent preacher, pastor and teacher, had to take a long break, because of illness, which we later found out was depression from the stresses of his job. After a year, he resigned, and the church searched for a new pastor. They called someone, presented him as being ordained by our denomination and believing everything that was in our statement of faith. I sensed something wrong, but went along like a sheep.

    In conversations with the new pastor, he told me that he did NOT believe the statement of faith, and had gone in a "different" direction. Unbiblical! Now, he is an excellent leader. He has really straightened out the church after a long period without leadership. But, his preaching is always just a big "off." Not in a big way, he uses the bible, but rather than exegete the passage, he uses it as a jumping off point to go in the direction he wants. Call it eisegesis!

    My problem is that the church is a biblical church, the long time members are really walking with Christ. My husband has really fit in more than any other church we have attended. But, I dread Sunday mornings, which I used to love. I do believe the elders have pulled the new pastor back a bit, but not enough for me. (Seminary educated, and maybe too fussy about doctrine?)

    Can we be too fussy about doctrine? And is it believing doctrine that matters, or living it? Is skirting around the edges of the Bible a reason to leave a church, when everything else is ok?

    Now, I have not seen anything happening revolving around the OP's 1 Cor. 5:11 verse. Nothing that gross or blatantly immoral. So, when do we draw the line? When should we leave a church, and how many times should we jump ship? And for what? Or only because God really tells us to move on?

    I feel like I have languished in churches for too long, staying because I didn't want to look like I was a church jumper, when my needs, values and especially doctrines had totally changed, or the church changed. And being a couple, I do have to consider where my husband will be happy.

    Not sure it this is what the OP is talking, but it really stuck a nerve in my life! Thanks for posting this!
     
  14. NDL

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  15. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    I would not need to, he saw it coming in 2 Thessalonians 2. They all saw it coming, btw. See 2 Peter 2, Jude 1, 1 John 4 etc.

    The fact is that there was a perfect church, but only in the beginning when it was created by those who "worshipped what they knew" (John 4:22, Matthew 18:20, John 12:35). What we have now is the result of a major falling away, where there is no longer a disciple on earth who has all the 100% correct perspective on all matters of truth - it is necessary that every Christian is touched by false doctrines, and to be 100% correct, we need to be purified and refined (Consider Malachi 3:1-6).

    False doctrines lend the person to represent deceiving spirits rather than The Holy Spirit when they speak of matters (see 1 Timothy 4:1, also consider Proverbs 18:21 as it relates to Genesis 2:17 and Hosea 4:6 - the whole problem of the fall being reflected in Exodus 20:7 - coveting and misusing God's name for one's vanity).

    For this reason, the representation of The Holy Spirit in churches is limited and He is not fully represented in all the time that is devoted toward that purpose. This is not known to the majority of Christians, so even the pastors themselves fall into deception to think that they are 100% representing The Holy Spirit - afterall, they have the position that such authority belongs and have been elected to believe that it is granted to them (consider John 5:41-44).

    For this reason, we all must recognise that we must test all things .. although the greater majority (ie: the non-elect) will never do this, instead they remain enslaved to their passions, unable to overcome the world in such way that if they suspect that something is a bit off, they will ultimately concede to belong with the church than to be an opposer at the risk of being outcast.

    The greatest problem I see is that churches do not really implement Romans 12:2 and Revelation 18:4, in such way falling on the opposing side when judged by Matthew 6:24. This is because their spiritual food is not exclusively of the origin of The Holy Spirit. Media presents them with spiritual food by way of music, movies, games etc, which all cause their minds to be formed in a manner of thinking that is sinful, demonic, worldly. Accordingly they see success in a worldly way (Ecclesiastes 8:1, Mark 10:42-44) and they then create the church according to that pattern. They have long lost the knowledge of how to operate according to God's ways (Matthew 5:38-48).
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  16. NDL

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  17. NDL

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    I do thank you Serving Zion, for your time and council, which is precious. You've given me a lot to consider.
     
  18. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Ahhh, I see. Well, it is important that we remain sanctified in The Holy Spirit. Remember what is written in Galatians 6:1 "you who are spiritual should correct him" .. meaning to say that there are so-called Christians who are not spiritual. If judgement comes from them who are carnal, it is demonic judgement. Yet we who perceive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14), we recognise when someone is not walking in the light - their earthly nature writhes in our presence (James 3:15, John 3:20).

    As for what you are saying about practically supporting the weaker brethren while also maintaining it's integrity, keep in mind that judgement comes through first being taught, then subsequently receiving conviction (consider John 15:22, John 16:8). Titus 3:10 shows that we are not to allow the fallen to subdue the righteous, but rather to maintain the strength of the brethren by purging the wicked from it's midst (Proverbs 10:30). There is a proper procedure for this too, described in Matthew 18:15-17. In this way the scriptures of Isaiah 6 and Daniel 12:3 find application to exaggerate the elect from those who take the broad road, and as the fruits are manifest through the refining and strengthening of the proper nation (Matthew 21:43, John 13:35, Jeremiah 15:19), it will draw them to approach in proper manner (contrition) that they, too, may receive the life that is in Christ, the true vine (John 5:39-40, John 4:14).
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  19. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I think Paul was talking about public offenses that the Church can't ignore without becoming hypocritical. I belong to a very liberal congregation. We're not known for discipline. But a few times things happened that we couldn't ignore. We didn't ban contact with the people involved, but they ended up leaving the church rather than face the problem, and thus the membership as a whole had little contact with them.

    There are few examples in Paul's letters of actually carrying that out. The one I can think of was for what he considered a gross sexual offense. He acknowledged that he was a sinner himself, and certainly didn't expect others to be without sin. He also counseled toleration of differences in belief. But there are times when you can't ignore something.
     
  20. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    OP, just as I am thinking more about this, I have thought that I should offer you to read this booklet that I print, in case there is something in there that The Lord will use to teach you further :)

    www.adonai-reigns.life/booklets/the-gospel
     
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