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I posted this on another forum, and thought it might be more appropriate to post it here:
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I don't know how to write what's on my heart.
I have real issues with the Church. This is a struggle for me, as I really don't like the conduct of those within the Church, and in this I speak to two separate issues:
There is a "herd" mentality in the Church, but not towards things that are necessarily Biblical. I once attended a Calvary Chapel, and the Pastor had a lot of opinions in areas that fell on issues outside of the Bible. Example: he would sometimes pontificate about a specific politician, and the issues that that politician championed. I didn't like the politician, nor was I zealous to pursue the goals of this politician. I likewise didn't care for several news sites that this Pastor used for source material. Again, many of the issues discussed involved world affairs, etc., that fell into "gray" areas.
All that said: the Pastor is free to champion whatever issues he wants (so long as they don't run contrary to Scripture). The issue, however, wasn't so much that the Pastor championed certain issues; the problem is that *I did not agree* with the issues that he championed. I was not disruptive in disagreeing, nor was I disrespectful when I expressed my disagreement. But if you asked me "NDL, how do you feel about such and such," I will tell you. And when you run afoul of the established pattern, people disfellowship themselves with you.
Again, I am not talking about anything Scriptural. Calvary Chapels tend to spend a lot of time analyzing world events, and they often comment to boot. And they are free to do so. The issue I have, is that I am not free to disagree - and I am not talking about disagreeing in a disruptive way, or causing factions or divisions - for to do that is wrong. I am simply saying that in many gray areas, the very act of *not being on board* is a problem; the herd will not allow individual thought. You *will* be excluded. Again, to be clear, I have been disenfranchised over silly issues. I am not a calvanist, but I am do love the work of John MacArthur. I once had a Pastor have a problem with me, as I didn't share in his zeal against calvinism (as much as I told him that I wasn't a calvinist). Fill in the blank. Pick an issue. Pre trib? Post trib? Dividing over such matters is silly. But...you'd *better* agree; you'd better be a part of the herd! If not, you will be excluded from social events, etc. You'll find yourself outside of the "inner circle."
The second issue I have revolves around 1 Cor 5:11:
"But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person."
Okay. Let's be honest: everyone has their good days and their bad days. I am not speaking of public sin, or gross immorality. I am not a carnal believer. But I do have my struggles, and I do have my good and bad days (Pro 27:16). I wish that it were not so, and I do try to yield myself to the Spirit, in obedience to the Scriptures. But sometimes I trip up.
Ideally, a believer is to be treated with grace and charity. Scripture commands us to bear one another's burdens (Gal 6:2), and I wish that this were so.
But it's not.
Someone filled with spiritual pride is marked by certain behaviors (Is 65:5, and Luke 18:11-12). I do not think that the people of whom I speak are filled with pride, but I do think that they are somehow thinking themselves obedient to 1 Cor 5:11. But what happened to bearing another's burdens?
Again. I am not speaking to gross sin or public immorality, but if we're honest, we all have good days and bad days. And sometimes, you might come into the company of a Brother or Sister, who might detect that you had a bad day (or so). And then comes the distancing of one's self.
On again off again. "Draw near to me; go away from me." "Are you in with the herd, or do you color outside the lines?"
Please don't read into this more than what i've said; I have tried to be as transparent as possible.
My Wife & I have been married 17 years, and have a great relationship. I likewise have good relationships with our Parents. I have had a good working relationship with my employers.
But with the church I am disgusted. I am weary of the silliness, and the lack of grace and forbearance. No one is perfect; we all have our bad and good days. We all have liberty of thought regarding topics outside of Scripture (Romans 14). The only reason I have been going to church is out of obedience (Heb 3:13; Luke 19:12-22). I had a couple of great friends in the Lord when I lived in NY (men who were disciples, and abounded in love, grace, and charity); it's been 5 years since we've moved to NC, and I have no real relationships within the church. If I could, I would never go to church again.
I do not understand why people in the church behave in the above ways. No matter what church you go to, it's all the same. And I am weary of going through the motions. It's very silly and shallow. If not for Hebrews 3:13, I would keep to myself and study (which I do almost daily).
Thanks for your time, and God bless
I posted this on another forum, and thought it might be more appropriate to post it here:
****
I don't know how to write what's on my heart.
I have real issues with the Church. This is a struggle for me, as I really don't like the conduct of those within the Church, and in this I speak to two separate issues:
There is a "herd" mentality in the Church, but not towards things that are necessarily Biblical. I once attended a Calvary Chapel, and the Pastor had a lot of opinions in areas that fell on issues outside of the Bible. Example: he would sometimes pontificate about a specific politician, and the issues that that politician championed. I didn't like the politician, nor was I zealous to pursue the goals of this politician. I likewise didn't care for several news sites that this Pastor used for source material. Again, many of the issues discussed involved world affairs, etc., that fell into "gray" areas.
All that said: the Pastor is free to champion whatever issues he wants (so long as they don't run contrary to Scripture). The issue, however, wasn't so much that the Pastor championed certain issues; the problem is that *I did not agree* with the issues that he championed. I was not disruptive in disagreeing, nor was I disrespectful when I expressed my disagreement. But if you asked me "NDL, how do you feel about such and such," I will tell you. And when you run afoul of the established pattern, people disfellowship themselves with you.
Again, I am not talking about anything Scriptural. Calvary Chapels tend to spend a lot of time analyzing world events, and they often comment to boot. And they are free to do so. The issue I have, is that I am not free to disagree - and I am not talking about disagreeing in a disruptive way, or causing factions or divisions - for to do that is wrong. I am simply saying that in many gray areas, the very act of *not being on board* is a problem; the herd will not allow individual thought. You *will* be excluded. Again, to be clear, I have been disenfranchised over silly issues. I am not a calvanist, but I am do love the work of John MacArthur. I once had a Pastor have a problem with me, as I didn't share in his zeal against calvinism (as much as I told him that I wasn't a calvinist). Fill in the blank. Pick an issue. Pre trib? Post trib? Dividing over such matters is silly. But...you'd *better* agree; you'd better be a part of the herd! If not, you will be excluded from social events, etc. You'll find yourself outside of the "inner circle."
The second issue I have revolves around 1 Cor 5:11:
"But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person."
Okay. Let's be honest: everyone has their good days and their bad days. I am not speaking of public sin, or gross immorality. I am not a carnal believer. But I do have my struggles, and I do have my good and bad days (Pro 27:16). I wish that it were not so, and I do try to yield myself to the Spirit, in obedience to the Scriptures. But sometimes I trip up.
Ideally, a believer is to be treated with grace and charity. Scripture commands us to bear one another's burdens (Gal 6:2), and I wish that this were so.
But it's not.
Someone filled with spiritual pride is marked by certain behaviors (Is 65:5, and Luke 18:11-12). I do not think that the people of whom I speak are filled with pride, but I do think that they are somehow thinking themselves obedient to 1 Cor 5:11. But what happened to bearing another's burdens?
Again. I am not speaking to gross sin or public immorality, but if we're honest, we all have good days and bad days. And sometimes, you might come into the company of a Brother or Sister, who might detect that you had a bad day (or so). And then comes the distancing of one's self.
On again off again. "Draw near to me; go away from me." "Are you in with the herd, or do you color outside the lines?"
Please don't read into this more than what i've said; I have tried to be as transparent as possible.
My Wife & I have been married 17 years, and have a great relationship. I likewise have good relationships with our Parents. I have had a good working relationship with my employers.
But with the church I am disgusted. I am weary of the silliness, and the lack of grace and forbearance. No one is perfect; we all have our bad and good days. We all have liberty of thought regarding topics outside of Scripture (Romans 14). The only reason I have been going to church is out of obedience (Heb 3:13; Luke 19:12-22). I had a couple of great friends in the Lord when I lived in NY (men who were disciples, and abounded in love, grace, and charity); it's been 5 years since we've moved to NC, and I have no real relationships within the church. If I could, I would never go to church again.
I do not understand why people in the church behave in the above ways. No matter what church you go to, it's all the same. And I am weary of going through the motions. It's very silly and shallow. If not for Hebrews 3:13, I would keep to myself and study (which I do almost daily).
Thanks for your time, and God bless
But I would warn you to be careful of how you perceive the assembly. For if your isolation of the church, is due to things beyond just because its unbiblical, if it is causing you to be bitter towards people, then you wouldn't be more in the right than if you have stayed.
First, I want to thank you for your time. Second, I thank you for your admonition; it's something I have to consider.
As I write this, I don't think that I am bitter. I did ask a Pastor who Pastored my Wife & I what he thought about all of this, and he did not see me as jaded (though he could not prescribe a solution to my dilemma; I say this as a statement of fact - not to accuse him. He was a good man, but my Wife & I have since relocated several hundred miles away from the church that he Pastored).
For you it probably is better to be among a more intimate setting, but for another, they may need that type of resource and accessibility that a bigger church is able to bring.
A great point; this is something that I have been pondering recently.
But what would be more of a concern is spiritual bitterness, that somehow whatever decision you make is a valid case to curse out the people who choose to stick to a different route than yours. It is not.
I wouldn't say that necessarily; I am just really weary of certain attitudes that prevent relationships from growing.
There are a lot of folks who operate on their intellect, without having humility and self reflection to counter their knowledge. When you recognize your own depravity, when you realize your own failings as a human being, you tend to approach others with grace. Conversely, when you operate on your intellect, you're often an unapproachable person who's obnoxious.
Outside of necessary objectivity, pride can dog the Apostle Peter for his failings in a hundred different ways. You cannot have a genuine relationship with someone that has no empathy or understanding of the human condition. As humans, though we ought not do certain things, there is going to come a time when we might stumble, or lose our temper, etc.
I can comment on Peter's foibles to a degree, but I can not sit in judgment of him. I too, behave stupidly at times, and if I were in Peter's shoes, I might have reacted the exact same way.
I can remember the first time when I thoroughly read through Nehemiah; wow...a guy with human emotions - just like me (Neh 2:2)!
Im sorry that your church experience have left you discouraged and disgusted, but let that not make you bitter towards those who are running the same race as you. Even if you do separated yourself, remember those who have actually done you well, for I doubt you stayed because everyone was horrible to you. And pray for them, and keep in touch with them. At the end of the day, no matter how disobedient you feel they are, they are still part of the body of Christ, they are still your brothers and sisters.
It's been hard. I have a few friends from my old home in NY, and they miss my absence as much as I miss theirs. In other words, the things that I am experiencing they are experiencing as well - be it hard heartedness, or a lack of grace - or a lack of hospitality. People are too busy to make time to build real relationships. Yet on Sunday, it's all show: "peace and be filled dear Brother, etc."
Maybe mine is a bad run. I moved to a new State, thinking that would be easy to find a church. It has not been as easy as I initially thought. Thankfully, we found an area where there appear to be a few good churches. For the past few weeks we started attending a church with some promise (the leadership purposes to do the right things - and I cannot fault the leadership, when they deliberately purpose to do that which is Biblical, even if their execution isn't perfect - because no one is perfect).
Again, I thank you for your time, and will take heed to what you've written.
That's very good advise.I thank you for your time, and agree with everything that you've written. Speaking to Luke 19:11-12, I know that the pharisee wasn't saved, but even saved people can behave as pharisees do, if they are operating in the flesh. And because we live in a fast paced world, few meditate on the Scriptures, nor are they introspective. And without introspection, without the true knowledge of what Christ has done in and through us (as believers), we're left to operate in the flesh. People that operate in the flesh lack grace, thus they seek to exclude people from their company on the basis of their faults.
Remember, from the heart comes evil surmising (1 Tim 6:4). A mature believer will take the time to discern what's going on in the life of his brother or sister; the person operating in the flesh accuses and divides. A mature disciple in the spirit will look to grow his brother/sister; a person operating in the flesh says a bunch of sweet words, but won't offer up a minute of his time. A mature believer might see a fault in his brother, discern if his brother wants to make a change in his life, and offer guidance and help to him; he treats his brother with understanding.
If you're a person that has a herd mentality, a lot will be forgiven you; a lot will be ignored. But if you're a person who colors outside the lines, your faults will be amplified. (Coloring outside the lines might consist of gray areas like who you vote for, whether or not you wear fancy duds to church, etc.)
When I was a young believer, I once judged a man for his spotty church attendance. Inconsistent church attendance was his fruit, and I was operating on the basis of how I was taught.
Then one day, I learned that the man was an over the road truck driver. That taught me a lesson that I never forgot.
I hope that my reply doesn't come across as having shot from both barrels. I am grateful for your time, and I took note of how you approached me - with grace and wisdom.
I would not need to, he saw it coming in 2 Thessalonians 2. They all saw it coming, btw. See 2 Peter 2, Jude 1, 1 John 4 etc.I(Deleted at OP's request).
Ahhh, I see. Well, it is important that we remain sanctified in The Holy Spirit. Remember what is written in Galatians 6:1 "you who are spiritual should correct him" .. meaning to say that there are so-called Christians who are not spiritual. If judgement comes from them who are carnal, it is demonic judgement. Yet we who perceive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14), we recognise when someone is not walking in the light - their earthly nature writhes in our presence (James 3:15, John 3:20).(Deleted at OP's request).