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Featured When does the kingdom come

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Markwsmith2020, Oct 20, 2017.

  1. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Does the above verse speak of the second coming of Christ?

    No!

    Does it speak of the abomination that maketh desolate?

    Yes!

    But if we quote the entire context, then we understand the chronology and events, that are leading up to the second coming of Christ.

    Here are versus you didn't quote.....

    26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    After earthly Jerusalem gets destroyed, then we have race wars and then a cataclysmic cosmic events that brings to every human being, the realisation that their time is short and the end is near, because the shaking of the heavens implies an impending destruction of earth, that is unfolding before their eyes as the birth pains intensify, as the extinction protocol gets under way and many people will die. Therefore the author uses a comforting phrase, to look up and lift up your heads for your redemption is close. Ask the question why is the redemption so close?

    Because it is no longer a question of if people will die, but knowing the certainty of death and a time of embracing it, without fear as the Judgement of the Dead is so close. So we have a grand finale unfolding as Earth and heaven is being destroyed and people are dying left right and centre and the earth resembles an open graveyard, where the vultures are gathering as Jesus said and at the same time.......

    15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

    Jesus closes it with the following.....

    35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    This language hints at being worthy to be with Christ, after the earthly body is no more, because our escape is not to continue to dwell on the face of the earth as usual, but to look up towards our permanent dwelling with Christ, in his Father's Heavenly house of many mansions.

    Again I kindly remind you, that you are taking a symbolic poetic text type, that contains a deeper meaning, and trying to force upon it something that is not there.

    Read Joel 2 what it says.....because it is the finale before the end...

    28“And afterward,

    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

    your old men will dream dreams,

    your young men will see visions.

    29Even on my servants, both men and women,

    I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

    30I will show wonders in the heavens

    and on the earth,

    blood and fire and billows of smoke.

    31The sun will be turned to darkness

    and the moon to blood

    before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

    32And everyone who calls

    on the name of the Lord will be saved;

    for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

    there will be deliverance,

    as the Lord has said,

    even among the survivors

    whom the Lord calls.

    The only people who are Spirit filled is the body of Christ, that is the Church, who have the testimony of Jesus and the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. (Revelation 19:10)

    Even Peter claimed this amongst the Jews, as the subjects of this prophesy, Acts 2:14-21.

    When you say all about us, you mean the Church right?

    Now Jesus gave his Revelation to John and so what did he say?

    1The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

    Notice that it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and that it testifies of everything, which is declared as the Word of God.

    Now let us read a little more.....

    4John,

    To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

    Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

    To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

    7“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”

    and “every eye will see him,

    even those who pierced him”;

    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

    So shall it be! Amen.

    8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Remember the Menorah of God is the seven candlestick holder, with the seven candlesticks in each holder. This Menorah was in the Old Testament, once a Jewish Kingdom on earth levitical priesthood. Yet in the New Testament age, Jesus has made the Menorah of God the Church. So yes as far as Jesus is concerned it is all about his one bride, the Church, after all he is coming because of her and for her.

    Notice that within the completenes of the seven Spirits Menorah of God, is a Kingdom revealed to John, hence the Revelation of Jesus as our Kingly Chief Priest. Notice also that he makes his bride a Kingdom of priests and at the same time he is sitting on the throne, because there cannot be the seven Spirits of God or the Menorah of God, that is the Church, if the throne is not already occupied by the Priestly King of kings Christ Jesus.

    So it follows logically that he has been already anointed as the King and he sits on the throne of David, as prophesied in Daniel 2:44, in the Heavenly sanctuary and on the right side of the Father, before the seven Spirits of God, that points to his Holy Spirit filed Church, who receive the prophesy of Joel. And yes, it was and is still and will be forever more about the Church, that Jesus revealed to John within the 1st century, that comprised of both Jews and gentiles. After all it is declared as the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the revealing of his Kingdom Church, that he reigns from, within the construct of the seven candlestick Menorah of God, that has the completeness and full attention of the seven Spirits of God, for the purpose of the Kingdom and the enthroned crowned Monarch Jesus Christ.

    How can anyone say that Jesus Christ is not sitting on the throne of David!
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  2. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42“What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”

    “The son of David,” they replied.

    43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

    44“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord:

    “Sit at my right hand

    until I put your enemies

    under your feet.” ’

    45If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

    Jesus is essentially telling the Jews that there is no literal interpretation to son ship from the lineage of David, rather it is spiritual. Jesus's argument would also carry over to the throne of David, that is, it cannot be earthly.

    We have to ask where is Christ's throne?

    Is Christ's throne a literal earthly throne?


    32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

    Notice God gives him the throne. So this throne is not a literal earthly throne, but one that has with it the title of being King of Judah and of all of Israel. This means that Mary was told that he would receive the title of the throne and be anointed as the Messiah within her lifetime. Notice also that his Kingdom is eternal and has no millennium reign attached to it, as to imply a temporal reign on earth, that will eventually end.

    If he sits and reigns on a literal throne on earth, across a literal millennium, then, when that reign ends, the throne will be dissolved. But this would contradict scripture because Mary is told that he reigns indefintely as the Kingly High Priest.

    Where in scripture do we find that he received this throne.....

    13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Daniel 7:13-14, 27)

    It is the Kingdom under the whole Heaven, not one that is earth based and so the throne must be Heavenly and the reign after the books are opened must therefore be Heavenly as the many stars of Heaven (Daniel 12:3).

    When did this happen?

    17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)

    Jesus at that point had not yet been coronated as King, until he according to the prophesy of Daniel 7:13-14, as the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him and there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom.

    This also fulfills Daniel 2:44.

    Even Jesus said...my Kingdom is not of this world.

    24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” (1 Corinthians 15:24-27)

    So according to Paul Jesus has been reigning from the Heavenly sanctuary on the Throne of David, and will continue to do so, until he makes his enemies his footstool, by the Church and through the Holy Spirit, bringing every one captive to Christ through the gospel.

    Then when he comes back he destroys the last enemy death and hands back the Kingdom to the Father and thereby highlighting that the enemies across the entire new covenant Church age until his return will continue to be made his footstool, within a mind and heart spiritual context and not by force or sword or war or violence.
     
  3. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi The Times,

    We seem to have such different views bro, that I will leave it there. Too much to try and go through. Would have been better to stick to one point at a time and not flood the conversation with so much.

    regards, Marilyn.
     
  4. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Sure. I totally understand.
     
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That can't be a scientifically proven fact, because it would contradict the Bible, which distinguishes between Gentiles and genetic descendants of Abraham (e.g. Romans 11:1-28).

    Also, note that Jesus Christ's Gospel of salvation goes to Jews first (Romans 1:16, Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24, Acts 3:26), and salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22b), because salvation is of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel so they can partake of the salvation offered to Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). And all Christians, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    Note that they can be. For election is different than salvation. The elect are elected (chosen) even before they get saved (Romans 11:28, Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 1:4, Romans 9:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10). During their lifetime, the elect are eventually granted God's miraculous gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) because they're elect (Acts 13:48b). Also, while the elect can't become nonelect, after they become Christians they need to be careful not to wrongly employ their free will in such a way that they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30, Hebrews 6:4-8).

    Note that it also applies to elect people before they become believers in Christ. For:

    Romans 5:8 . . . God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Here, "us" refers only to the elect. For God hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-13). Romans 5:8 doesn't contradict double predestination but is part of it. For God loves the elect not only before they get saved (Romans 11:28) but even before they're born (Romans 9:11-13). The elect were chosen (elected) by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). And Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:20) in the sense that God had already determined and so foreknew (Acts 2:23) before the foundation of the world that every human but Jesus would be a sinner and that He (God the Father) would send Jesus to suffer and die on the Cross to make possible the salvation of the elect (Ephesians 1:4-7). But God loving the elect enough to save them even while they were yet sinners (Romans 5:8) doesn't require once-saved-always-saved.

    The day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2) will include the time of the future, Second Coming (Romans 11:26, Zechariah 12:10-14) and the subsequent Millennium.

    For during the future Millennium, after Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Isaiah 66:15-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), Jesus will send out evangelists/missionaries to the nations to preach the Gospel and tell them all about the returned Jesus' fame and glory in Jerusalem (Isaiah 66:19). So people will want to come up to Jerusalem to serve Him (Isaiah 66:20-21, Micah 4:2, Zechariah 8:22-23).

    People will be saved by Jesus Christ during the future Millennium in the same way people have always been saved by Jesus: through faith in Him (John 3:16,36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12) and His New Covenant suffering and death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28, Romans 3:25) and His physical resurrection from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 10:9). And so people saved during the Millennium will become part of the Church, just as any people saved during the preceding Tribulation and Second Coming will have become part of the church. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    Those who become Christians during the Millennium will grow old and die just as people always have, since the Fall of man. But after the Millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), those who became Christians during the Millennium will be physically resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment along with all non-Christians of all times (Revelation 20:11-15). That's why not everyone at the Great White Throne Judgment will be cast into the lake of fire, but only the unsaved (Revelation 20:15).
     
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Or the earthly throne of David will be moved to the New Earth (of Revelation 21:1).

    Also, note that Jesus Christ will physically reign on the earth during the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6. For the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6, a time period commonly called the Millennium, won't begin until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when He will physically land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign physically on the earth during the Millennium, so will the physically resurrected Church. For the physically resurrected Church will reign with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10 the reference to the Church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the Millennium. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29 the reigning of the Church physically over the nations can refer to the Millennium. There's no reason to exclude the Millennium from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there's no reason to exclude the earth from the Millennium in Revelation 20:4-6.

    Also, the Church will reign forever on the New Earth. For the Church will reign forever in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:5, Revelation 21:10 to 22:5), which will descend from heaven to the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-3, Revelation 21:10) sometime after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 21:3).

    Note that Jesus Christ won't destroy death immediately at His future, Second Coming. For 1 Corinthians 15:26 refers only to when the first death will be cast into the second death, the lake of fire, at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will be after the future Millennium (Revelation 20:7-15). The resurrection at the Great White Throne Judgment is the resurrection at "the end" (1 Corinthians 15:24) and it will include everyone who won't be part of the first resurrection (Revelation 20:5), the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus' Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which will be before the Millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) and immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21).

    Note that 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't mean that Jesus Christ will deliver the Kingdom to God the Father immediately at Jesus' future, Second Coming, only that Jesus will do that sometime subsequent to His Second Coming. For right after Jesus' Second Coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then He must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Then He must physically resurrect and judge non-Christians of all times, at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then will He have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including the first-death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire (the second death) at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the Kingdom to God the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a New Heaven (a new 1st heaven/sky/atmosphere) and a New Earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created and God the Father will descend from heaven to the New Earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the Church on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4).
     
  7. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    See you on another topic ay, bro.
     
  8. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

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    Yep.

    God bless
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is, because over generations the dispersion and diffusion of genetic characteristics are progressive and inexorable.

    Abraham lineage
    “And indeed, the number of people in the world today with the “Abrahamic Genetic Signature” is too large to count precisely. A reasonable estimate is in the hundreds of millions.”

    This article was written over ten years ago. Since that time, the sophistication and accuracy of genetic testing has steadily improved, enabling recognition at ever increasing breadth and depth. Today, the estimate is almost certainly a multiple of the given estimate of hundreds of millions, and will only continue to increase over time in reflection of the underlying reality of complete permeation. This is in contrast to dispensational claims of only 15 - 20 million Jews worldwide.

    DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
    “With DNA testing becoming so accessible, the number of people discovering their Jewish roots is growing exponentially.”

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonent...-jewish-links-in-unusual-places/#4dd298461206

    Genetic distinctions certainly did still exist in Christ's day, and Scripture recognizes them (although not exclusively, because references to Jews and Israel certainly also always or frequently encompass non-ethnic converts to Judaism). But between then and now, the genetic distinctions have disappeared.

    This is not surprising, because God's original promise to Abraham attests to a global genetic pervasiveness which would additionally characterize the fulfillment of the promise:

    Genesis 17
    4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
    5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
    6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

    Spiritually, through Christ and all who are in Christ by faith, Abraham is the father of one spiritual nation, the New Testament Church (1 Peter 2:9). But many nations implies global genetic penetration and permeation, well beyond the limited number of nations of Biblical lands. This is therefore consistent with what contemporary improving genetic science is revealing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
  10. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Replying to Bible 2 in post # 254

    You wrote: >>>That was said only to nonelect Jews, and would also apply to nonelect Gentiles. For there are elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).<<<

    Think that what you said need to be studied better. The spiritual conditions of the Jews and of the Gentiles were incomparable. The Jews, dominated by the spirit of Devil, transformed or made the temple of God a den of thieves, though the Jews had the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law; the first covenant had ordinances of divine service. But they rebelled against God. JESUS was right when He said exclusively to the Jews saying that the Devil was their father (John 8:44) JESUS said unto His disiples: I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt.15:24. There were some exceptions like Zecharias, his wife Elisabeth, Joseph, Mary, Simeon, Anna, John the Baptist, Martha, Lazarus, and some more, these were not lost sheep. After, JESUS called the twelve disciples (one was a devil), and many believed in JESUS, and to these He gave the power to BECOME the sons of God (because they were not sons of God before, but sons of Devil), even to them that believed on His name, which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.(then, sons of God)

    You wrote: >>> ... and would also apply to nonelect Gentiles. For there are elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).<<<

    It would also apply to the Gentiles, but JESUS was not speaking of the Geniles in that moment. What JESUS said, he said exclusively to the Jews, to whom was given the first covenant, but they rebelled against God, by the way until today, they are followers of esoteric doctrine, a kind of spiritualism, reason by which they will be aclaim the false messiah as their messiah, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders (Rev.13:11-18, yes, God, even the own God, will send them strong delusion, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved, so they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth (believed not in JESUS), but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
     
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that Gentiles are to be distinguished from genetic Israel:

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Here the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like the apostle Paul (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish Christians (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile Christians (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become Christians they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It's the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect, genetic Jews who aren't yet Christians (Romans 11:28), but who will become Christians eventually (Romans 11:26).

    When the apostle Paul says: "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of Gentile individuals have become Christians, which won't happen until near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30); just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future Tribulation.

    Immediately after the future Tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus Christ Himself from heaven (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect Jews will be ashamed and weep and become Christians when they see Jesus and realize He truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time, just as when Jews become Christians now they become part of the Church. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    And the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus' Second Coming will all become part of the Church by receiving some measure of God's Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as Christian Jews today become part of the Church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles become part of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Also, if the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus' Second Coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

    Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the future Tribulation doesn't mean no Gentiles will be added to the Church during the subsequent Millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" doesn't have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it so the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it doesn't matter that the new Christians during the Millennium will be added to the Church/bride (of Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage of the Church to Jesus Christ occurred at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size sometime after her wedding.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  12. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    When you refer to "the false messiah", do you mean the individual man commonly called the Antichrist?

    If so, note that "anti"-Christ can simply mean anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in any "opponent of the Messiah" (Strong's Greek Dictionary, Word #500: antichristos), as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the 1st century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

    And note that nothing requires that the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ. For his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (that is, the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    But none of this means that there won't also be multiple, human false Christs who will arise during the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the Tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a) in Israel, promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

    The Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will work amazing miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b) by which people will be deceived (Revelation 13:12-14, Revelation 19:20, cf. Matthew 24:24). And God will send strong delusion on unrepentant people (whether Jews or Gentiles) so they will believe "the" lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12; in the original Greek, there's a "the" before "lie"), which could be the antichrist lie which has been around since the 1st century AD (2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), and which in our future will deceive the world into consciously and openly worshipping both Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9), as God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). The antichrist lie denies Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), denies Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), and denies Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism.
     
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,182
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    The dispersal and permeation of the Abrahamic genome throughout the entire human race effectively confirm the utter irrelevance of ethnicity as any criterion in determining spiritual status and standing before God. As ever, faith and obedience are the sole and exclusive timeless criteria necessary to please Him. His children can rest and work in His kingdom with complete confidence in this truth, and with the assurance of His complete impartiality in His relationship with them, and in His love and care for them.

    "God so loved the world..."

    My case also rests.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  14. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    You wrote: >>>
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that everyone doesn't have to be genetically Abrahamic for God to save both Jews and Gentiles (Romans 1:16).

    Also, neither should we completely reject the genetic distinction between them, as is sometimes asserted based on Galatians 3:28. For:

    Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Note this can't mean there are no Christians who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, for Christians remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean there are no Christians who are males or females, for we're still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a).

    So Galatians 3:28 can only mean there's no distinction between Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles, or between Christian males and Christian females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

    For just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

    That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

    Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    Note that John 3:16 doesn't mean God loves everyone in the world, for He hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22), whether Jews or Gentiles.

    What John 3:16 says doesn't require God loves everyone in the world, just as, for example, saying a person loves TV doesn't require that person loves every show on TV.

    In the Bible, "the world" doesn't have to mean everyone in the world. Just as "the world" in John 15:18 and John 16:8-9,20 doesn't include Christians, so "the world" in John 3:16 doesn't include the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). And in the case of, for example, John 18:20, it doesn't include the vast majority of the earth's inhabitants at that time, who didn't hear Jesus speak to them during His preaching before His arrest.
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Regarding Daniel 2:42-43, note that it might best be understood in the light of Daniel 7, where the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear) and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43 the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

    But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who will bring this about could be the future Antichrist.

    The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9) which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24) could mean the future Antichrist will arise from a little country. And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

    The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, that is, a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

    This Baathist federation could be put together in our future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like how when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

    The beast which comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Aren't we all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but have only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

    He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in 2 religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the 2 horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say he is Jesus Himself returned (via reincarnation). But he won't say he's Christ. For the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ, and will deny Christ is in the flesh (1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

    The 7 heads of Revelation's "beast" from the sea in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of the apostle John in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of 5 five empires fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10-11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon destroyed at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Isaiah 13).

    Before the Second Coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

    The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

    Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

    In Revelation 17:9 the 7 mountains (or hills) which support Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" can be the 7 hills of Rome. For at the time of the apostle John, who wrote down the book of Revelation in the 1st century AD (Revelation 1:1b), the Roman empire was the chief support for what Revelation's "Babylon" represents: all of fallen mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11) and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). At the same time, in Revelation 17:9 the 7 mountains can also represent 7 empires (Revelation 17:10). For an empire can be referred to symbolically as a mountain (Jeremiah 51:24-25, Daniel 2:35,44), and what Revelation's "Babylon" represents has been supported by 7 empires.

    Also, in Revelation 17:10 the 7 "kings" can refer to 7 empires, just as the 4 "kings" in Daniel 7:17 refer to 4 "kingdoms"/empires, Daniel 7:23 referring to the 4th (the Roman empire).

    Note that while the corrupt aspects of the RCC (as of all other churches) are included in what Revelation's symbolic whore "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, she represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the RCC. For the RCC just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the RCC the only institution which buys merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor has the RCC killed all Christian martyrs who have ever been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the RCC just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the RCC been continuously supported by the empires of fallen mankind throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of fallen mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11) and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

    The 10 kings of the future Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

    Near the very end of the future Tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile, physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

    Of course this will be a lie. For at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat all the unsaved armies of the world, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15), a time period commonly called the Millennium. During that time, Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a New Heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a New Earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the New Earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

    Note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Catholicism in its past and current form, insofar as Catholicism affirms that Jesus is the Christ, while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Catholicism affirms that Jesus is the Son of God, while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 2:22b). And Catholicism affirms that Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Catholicism affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms that the only man who is God is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, while the Antichrist will say that he (the Antichrist) is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms that Lucifer (Satan) is evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Catholicism in its past and current form, but a blend of Gnosticism and Luciferianism, also called Satanism.

    Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly apostate pope), could at first pretend to support Catholicism (as well as Christianity generally, and also Islam), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

    Note that nothing requires John 5:43b refers to the future Antichrist, instead of to a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Israel whom the Antichrist will "cut" a 7-year peace treaty with (Daniel 9:26a,27a), after the Antichrist defeats him and his followers (Daniel 11:22-23a).

    Anyone who receives the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") can never be saved (Revelation 14:9-11), whereas there will be Jews who will be saved after the time of the Antichrist, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Romans 11:26, Zechariah 12:10-14). Therefore, not all Jews will receive the Antichrist. They could survive his reign by hiding from him. And those in Jerusalem could be protected from him by the future, Two Witnesses (of Revelation 11:3,5).

    Note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Judaism in its past and current form, insofar as Judaism worships YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5), while the Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:5). And Judaism rejects Lucifer/Satan as being evil (Zechariah 3:2, Isaiah 14:12), while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer/Satan (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). And Judaism forbids the worship of any images (Leviticus 26:1), while the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15).

    Regarding the idea of the Antichrist being Jewish by blood, both his parents could be Arabs (if his mother wasn't impregnated by Satan). But from some long-ago ancestor, the Antichrist could also have some Jewish blood in him, from the tribe of Dan (Genesis 49:17), which could be the reason that the tribe of Dan isn't included in the 12 tribes of the 144,000 (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19).

    There will be one. For in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are militarily defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

    This treaty will allow this false "Messiah" and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a) so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so they can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a) the future Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he's (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

    In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the future Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).
     
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,182
    Non-Denom
    Never heard of such. Whom in the historical post-apostolic true Church can you quote that espoused it?
     
  18. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Hello, Im glad to hear from you. The promise of our Lord JESUS unto us is: Mark 4:25 - "for he that hath, to him will be given:". Amen.

    You wrote: >>>
    Regarding Daniel 2:42-43, note that it might best be understood in the light of Daniel 7, where the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear) and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. <<<

    Note that the vision of Daniel 7:3-6 given unto him in the time of the King Belshazzar, is a confirmation of what was revealed in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar (Dan.2 - the Great Statue). Really, both visions reveal the four universal kingdoms, beginning by the kingdom of Babylon.
    The detail is that after the appearance and construction of the fourth reign, no one other universal kingdom was built upon the Earth. So, rest yet the appearance of the fifth and last universal kingdom, in part of iron and in part of clay, showed in the feet of and 10 toes of the Great Statue, so, in this time of Apocalypse, we are living in an extension of the fourth kingdom still, because the fifth universal kingdom, the religious universal kingdom of Antichrist, it is to be fulfilled in our days yet, in the days that follow, through the universal Catholicism together with the esoteric Judaism that is spread among the Jews around the world, thus in part of iron and in part of clay, in the literal fulfilment of the prophecy.


    You wrote: >>>And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations . . .<<<

    First, it is important to undersand that the cited 10 horns are represented in the 10 toes of clay of the feet of the Great Statue, cited distinctly in Dan.2: v.41, because the number 10 is significant in the prophecy, evidently. The verse 42 shows this distinction, saying: 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. You know that the prophecy is speaking of TWO kind of peoples (iron and clay) Having these prophetical details, we must remember that these remnants that still exist of the old Roman Empire in our days (the iron of the feet and of the 10 toes of the GS), they come developing and maintaining themselves until our days, through the Universal power of the Roman Catholic Church throughout history since the advent of Christianism, but the RCC is not yet an Empire, will be with the help of the ruthless false messiah in very soon future.

    The European nations you have cited, they make part of iron and are represented by iron. The clay of the 10 toes is a specific nation, as prophesied Jeremiah and Isaiah: Je. 18:v.6&Is.64:v.8 among others: Please, check it. The revelation which the Lord did give to me in these prophetical portions of Scripture, the source of all Truth, it is that the clay of the ten toes/10 horns are the 10 tribes of Israel (1Kings 12:v.19), which rebelled against the house of David unto this day. BTW, as you know, JESUS is of the house of David.

    The ephemeral and satanic Antichrist's Empire, which will rise up and manifest in this time of Apocalypse, in accord the written Holy Scriptures, it will be ruled by TWO satanic World Beasts, both described in Rev. 13:1-18.

    Rev.13:1-10 reveals who is the first Beast to rule the satanic and religious Empire of Antichrist, the verse 5, yes, verse 5, reveals that this Beast will rule the Empire by a period of 42 months or 1.260 days, or 3 and half years. The believers MUST be attentive to the fulfillment of this prophecy in the days that are approaching, as soon as the false Messiah of the esoteric Jews be manifested. They are waiting the manifestation of their ruthless messiah (whose number of his name is 666), not JESUS. JESUS prophesied about this preference: (John 5:43) as they chose and preferred the homicidal Barabbas.


    Rev. 13:11-18 reveals who is the second Beast which will rule the satanic Antichrist's Empire, that is the ruthless false messiah. He comes from one of the ten tribes of Israel, as prophesied the Patriarch Jacob: Gen.49:v.17: " Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward." Seeing this devilish picture in his vision, Jacob cry out to the Lord: v.18 I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord.

    The esoteric or spiritualist Jews are waiting their messiah, not JESUS. The prophecy says: For this cause God will send them strong delusion (very soon they will receive their messiah, by the way a ruthless false messiah, he has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon), that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth (JESUS), but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2The.2:11-12)

    He who has ears, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.
     
  19. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can be considered to be members of the various tribes of Israel, to the point where they can even inherit the land of the tribes (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly Christian Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), are considered by God to be grafted into the various tribes of Israel when they're grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

    And so Christian Gentiles will inherit the land of Israel during the future Millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past, or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).
     
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Are you thinking of the idea that there are 10 "lost" tribes today? And that Jews can only be from David's tribe of Judah?

    If so, note that Jews include individuals from tribes of Israel other than Judah. For the apostle Paul is truly a Jew (Acts 22:3) and he's of the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1). Indeed, Jews include individuals from all 12 of Israel's tribes, for there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the 10 northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history.

    For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom of Israel, when it first become idolatrous, some individuals from all 10 of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews. Also, some individuals from the 10 northern tribes remained in the land of Israel even after its defeat by Assyria, and some of them went to Judah at the time of King Hezekiah (2 Chronicles 30). It's for these reasons that later the Jews who returned from the Babylonian Captivity could be referred to as "all Israel" (Ezra 2:70, Ezra 6:17, Ezra 8:25,35, Ezra 10:5, Nehemiah 7:73, Nehemiah 12:47), and why the Jews living in the 1st century AD could be referred to as including all 12 tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1, Acts 2:36,22,5), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

    So the people alive today who are descended genetically from a 1st century AD Jew would include individuals from all 12 tribes. Some of these descendants could know they're Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity and intermarried freely with Gentiles to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity, over the past 2,700 years their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

    --

    Also, while God knows which people alive today are descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the 12 genetic tribes of Israel arose (Genesis 49:28), nonelect Israelites/Jews aren't considered by God to be truly Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or truly Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9), or God's children or Abraham's children, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they're Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

    Some genetic Israelites are Christians, and so are members of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew Paul the apostle (Acts 22:3) is a member of the Church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). And some still-living, non-Christian genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they're elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the still-living, elect, non-Christian genetic Israelites who don't become Christians before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will become Christians (and so will become members of the Church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at His Second Coming (Romans 11:26) when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect genetic Israelites will eventually become Christians and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

    --

    Just as those of the tribe of Benjamin, for example (Romans 11:1), are Jews (Acts 22:3) because they're descended from those who lived in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:1-3), so those of all the other tribes of Israel are Jews who are descended from those who came to live in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17). For the definition of "Jew" includes those who have connection with the territory of Judah (See Strong's word numbers G2453, G2448, H3063 and H3064), not just those who are genetically a part of the tribe of Judah.

    An analogy would be people born in different countries in Europe, people whose ancestors were also born in those different countries, going back into ancient times. If they immigrate to America and become naturalized citizens of America, this won't change their genetic identities. They will still be genetically English or French or German or Italian or Spanish or Greek, etc. And only the original inhabitants of America, the American Indians, can be said to be genetic Americans. In this analogy, the nation/territory of America represents the kingdom/territory of Judah. The European immigrants represent the genetic members of the tribes of Israel other than Judah. All Americans, including the European immigrants who became naturalized citizens of America, represent all Jews. And the American Indians represent the genetic members of the tribe of Judah. Again, this is just an analogy for how "Jews" can include genetic members of every tribe of Israel.

    --

    Also, the 12 tribes of Israel aren't countries or regions (as is sometimes claimed), but consist of individuals who can be living in any country or region. Otherwise, one's tribe would change whenever one moved from one country or region to another. Also, nothing requires that any of the nominally-Christian nations today are descended from any of the ancient 12 tribes of Israel, instead of them all simply being Gentile nations. For Christians come from every ethnicity on the earth (Revelation 5:9b), and only a remnant of genetic Israel gets saved (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity as a whole gets saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14). Also, the entire Church throughout the world is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12).
     
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