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Featured When does our eternal life start?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    OSAS'rs would believe it started right away and it's a done deal but that is fasr from the truth, just wishful thinking that could cost them .

    Remember the seed that fell on rocky ground? Here is the biblical explanation of that parable

    Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

    So to believe/be saved "could" be the start of it, all depending on how we act, it ain't over until it's over.
     
  2. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But how do we know we are one of those until it's over?
     
  3. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Andrew Jeremiah's quote is typical of how many miss the understanding concerning the book of life, being motivated by the idea that each person has been individually chosen by name in Christ from before the foundation of the world. Here below in Malachi we find our first clue that this is not how that book of life gets written:

    Malachi 3:16-17 "Then those who feared Yahweh spoke one with another; and Yahweh listened, and heard, and a book of memory was written before him, for those who feared Yahweh, and who honored his name. They shall be mine,” says Yahweh of Armies, “my own possession in the day that I make, and I will spare them, as a man spares his own son who serves him."

    That "book of memory" and the "book of life" are one and the same book. And as Malachi reported, the names of those of God's elect who are that special possession of God got their names in that book of remembrance over time as God observed them and listened to them. And of course, if this is so then we would expect to be able to find that process of watching and listening and noticing the ways of men spoken about in the Scriptures as God goes about making that book of remembrance (aka, the book of life). And we do find that and I will show you where, but before I do I want to just say that there is also another way we know. And that other way is that Jesus said, "He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God." So we see that it was not until ones were able to show faith in Christ that they could have their name written into the book of life and thus not be judged. This then has to be after they are born. They could have and show that faith long before Christ's arrival but they could not have and show that faith until after they were born. Thus the book of life is indeed a book of remembrance in which God writes down those he observes and listens to and finds faithful.

    Here as follows we see God doing that looking and listening and taking notes. Ask yourself if God is being partial or impartial by doing it as he says in the following:

    Jeremiah 17:10 "I, Jehovah, search the mind, I try the heart, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings."

    Each and every human gets their reward how? "according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings."

    We play some huge tricks on ourselves with our reasoning which cause us to fail to see such simple things. We read texts like as Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love", where the plural pronoun "us" indicates not the individuals but the group God predetermined would be. God in his wisdom knew he would be able to find some faithful ones to put together that group. But the only seed which was individually foreordained is the one spoken of here, as follows:

    1 Peter 1:19-20 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.."

    Christ was foreordained. As individuals, any of us are written into that book of memory based upon our willingness to place faith in Christ. That willingness is shown not by a vain statement that we believe, but by a belief which produces the works which prove that belief. That work is the first of the works God asks of us. And God judges us all by our works, whether our works are what he wants us to do or if our works are merely what we want to do without regard to what God wants.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  4. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A PhD in physics means he knows more about physics then someone that does not have a PhD. In this case we are talking about time and science has a lot to say about when time began back at the beginning of the universe. In addition to nuclear physics he also has studied earth and planetary sciences.

    We have the Bible and we have Science like we have a left and a right hand. Even I study science, history and the Bible so that I can have a better understanding. Schroeder adds to this the study of Kabbalah and that gives us additional understanding and a different perspective.
     
  5. Andrew Jeremiah

    Andrew Jeremiah Biblical Christian Supporter

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    "One of those?" Do you mean the Unforgiven Sin(ner)?
    They know where they stand with Israel's Messiah and King. They know they hate Him. And the one's that are deceived by the false doctrine in the Church but are still un-forgiven sin(ner - non-elect, never named in the book of life), it doesn't matter because before God their existence is nothing to God. Doesn't even give a second thought. But He does instruct us in giving this people in the world a second thought. But to Him, if Christ is not there, then neither is He (God). And the deceived one who thought he was good with Israel's Messiah and King (thought they were Christian/saved)? They thought that way because GOD MADE THEM think that way. Blinders, if you will. He does this to His born again Covenant people.

    "One of those?" Do you mean the born-of-God Biblical Christian in Covenant with God and His Messiah?
    The true-born of God definitely know (without doctrine) 'where they stand with God' when He invades their life. They will go through the mental changes (repentance) and will understand their unholy dirt-ness about themselves before/maybe same time they fell His love and absolution of your unworthiness as His Spirit enters you and begins to dwell within you. The "One of those" will KNOW if they know God. You see, there's a real reason why we are called "Yah-hoo's" and "holy-rollers" and "hallelujah's" and other descriptive name or moniker (Acts 11:26).
    ♫ If you're saved and you know it clap your hands.......♫
     
  6. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Another strong bit of additional help to us is to identify more exactly when the phrases, "from before the foundation of the world" and “from the foundation of the world”, really were. Correctly understanding this is pivotal to our development of even further correct understanding.

    There is good reason why we read that the blood of the prophets of God was shed “from the foundation of the world:

    “That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation...” Luke 11:50

    That reason is that this world was founded in sin, After Adam sinned. The first of God's prophets to be slain being Abel, who was slain by Cain. And Abel's blood yet speaks from the ground, prophesying to us about the enmity between the seed of the wicked one and the seed of the heavenly Jerusalem of God above.

    The Greek word we translate as “foundation” is G2602 “katabole.” This word comes up from G2598 “kataballo”, meaning “to throw down.” What it actually refers to is the throwing down of seed as in Adam's beginning to sow seed as his children after he sinned. Thus the foundation of this world was the birth of Adam's first children. And that it was after Adam sinned, thus meaning that this world was founded in Adam's sin. And this is why the prophets of God were indeed slain from the foundation of the world as we are told at Luke 11:50. Abel being the first of those slain, he being slain by Cain right there at the start of the world. And with that slaying of Cain the Lamb of God was also first slain on Cain's behalf:

    Revelation 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

    Adam's sin was thus “before the foundation of the world”, thus explaining 1 Peter 1:20 “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.” With Adam's sin, God had already began a plan for saving Adam's seed which was soon to begin being thrown down by Adam through the forbearance of God's grace.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  7. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Philippians 4:3 "And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life."

    Romans 8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."

    Individually this requires a great deal of clear-minded humility about whether or not we actually have that witness being born to us of God's spirit. For it is easy for ones own emotions to deceive them. But when it is real, it is undeniable to us.

    As for Paul knowing that of others as Philippians 4:3 shows, this is Paul's judgment based upon his witness of the correctness of the knowledge of God's truths they speak and their demonstration of the fruitage of God's spirit by them. For those things are a sure indication. But it requires that we our self first have those things else we cannot know what to look for in others. If we lacked in those things we would just be judging by what seems good to our self.
     
  8. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All well and good but what if any of those fall away? Also, I've known plenty that claim they are saved, but it didn't take a genius to see by their fruits, something completely different.

    Many will claim salvation, just as many as say "Lord Lord" and don't make it. Then there are those that give it a good shot, as I just proved, yet fall away at some point.

    Only God knows how it will turn out.
     
  9. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't think you were paying attention to the scripture I posted...the biblical reference on falling away.

    Maybe my prior post to this one will drive it home.

    And don't misunderstand me, for those who are all like, "what are you talking about not knowing I'm saved?" there is a good chance you are for now, some of you anyway, and I'm not disagreeing with that. It's just that you don't know the hearts of many, or if they will be able to hang on to what they do have. It's also a possibility you can fall away, and if you are sure of yourself enough to scoff at that, then that's good, I hope you do hang in there.

    But none of that makes what I said, any less a fact.
     
  10. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And if any of those fall away? Then they were never written in that book to begin with.

    To count ourselves as in before it's over, would not be wise.

    I personally am always a work in progress, always working towards the goal.
     
  11. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Some do fall away.

    I agree that we are personally always a work in progress, always working towards the goal. But while that is a popular opinion that they were never written in the book of life, I have to disagree:

    Exodus 32:33 "And Jehovah said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

    Deuteronomy 29:20 "Jehovah will not pardon him, but then the anger of Jehovah and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and all the curse that is written in this book shall lie upon him, and Jehovah will blot out his name from under heaven."

    Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

    I might add that these pet names they have created, like "annihilationist", which go beyond what is written, are but their way of comforting themselves that they are OK to believe as they do. Are we annihilationist by preference or would we too not rather that literally all would repent and honor our God as he deserves to be honored? We are not annihilationist. We are salvationists who are unwilling to compromise God's righteousness. Their beliefs nullify God's Laws rather than fulfills them. They turn Christ into the excuse to nullify God's Law and I am certain that angers Christ.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  12. Andrew Jeremiah

    Andrew Jeremiah Biblical Christian Supporter

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    You can't judge only using the metaphorical "fruit" to discern someone's salvation. There's doctrine. Once someone is born again from above it's a whole new life to learn - only ONE Way, ONE Life, ONE Truth and we must go through the learning/growing process from God Himself as He teaches us His Word because [the] man [of God] does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God. Through daily meditation (yes, we will be in obedience to the same instruction and command God gave Moses and the Kids - Deut. 6:4-9) through daily meditation, and talking about God and this "so-great salvation" "you" enable God to renew your mind to His Way of Thinking (Rom. 12:2), and not that garbage (-world's philo-sophia) that we are constantly bombarded with as soon as we are born to a home NOT obedient to God because this particular family is NOT in Covenant with God.
    Yet.

    There is more to discern than just the metaphorical "fruit." If there is a command from God or His Christ to one of His own (or corporately/nationally) there will first come instruction (typically) from God.

    Take a look again at what is being done "In [My] Name" Jesus says...

    These are not miraculous things these fakes/imposters are 'performing' which means they can be done by men IF you understand the doctrine taught in Scripture ...
    prophecy, cast out demons, other miraculous things...

    If you got that right then you will know that these imposters can do these things AND NOT EVER BE CHRISTIAN/BORN-AGAIN/IN-COVENANT with God.
     
  13. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think we're in agreement.

    It's just the way you replied to my post, it was hard to tell.
     
  14. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What specifically was it I said that you disagree with?
     
  15. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Yes, agree with all you said in your post 90 except for the very first line: "And if any of those fall away? Then they were never written in that book to begin with."

    Certainly those at Matthew 7:21-23 were not written in the book of life at that time but we have no way to know if they ever were before that. These ones clearly believe they have God's spirit helping them to do what they do, but that does not mean it is really God's spirit empowering them. Satan can empower a man to appear to be able to do such things as casting out demons and so more than warning us against good works it warns us to make sure that we really have God's spirit and are following God's spirit. "have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" They certainly thought God's spirit was the power behind what they thought they were able to do. And surely the demons were happy to help them think so.

    But things as described at Hebrews 6:4-6 are not possible for anyone who has not made it into Christ and thus the book of life.

    God has not changed. If the wicked one turns from his sin, his name is written into the book of life: Ezekiel 18:21 “But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”

    If the righteous one whose name is written in the book of life turns back from his righteousness, his name is blotted out of the book of life: Ezekiel 18:24 “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
     
  16. Andrew Jeremiah

    Andrew Jeremiah Biblical Christian Supporter

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    If the book of memory was the book of life it would be called book of life and God doesn't confuse His people. They have different name.
    Otherwise, taking your inconsistency a bit further....The Tree of Life we also call the Sapling of Foolishness. The Shewbread near the altar...we also call a Jack-in-the-Box Quarter-Pounder. With no cheese.
    Where does it stop?
    God says to not put light for darkness, nor darkness for light. How this figures in? In other words...we're supposed to, commanded actually, to be honest and truthful in our dealings with brethren and different set of rules in dealing with the non-Covenant. You're not being honest with the Scripture when you want to make two totally separate and different books and make them one the same, despite having different names.
     
  17. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
    25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
    26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
    27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
    28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
    31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


    Yes, you are speaking of it in a way that nullifies the penalties of God's law rather than fulfills the Law. Your way is not equal. Take your time and ponder it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  18. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's kind of the premise to what I'm basically saying here...we don't know, not until it's over.

    On that, that you disagreed with, I meant to add a question mark to it but probably didn't, meaning it was just a thought. That would explain a few things, but until it's all done with, with the exception of what's biblical, we'll just have to wait and see..
     
  19. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    While some say that Adam and Eve were the first names in God's book of life, I dispute their claim, although I will by-pass most of the discussion of that in this post.

    As I explained in a previous post, Cain and Abel represent the first of the verb “kataballo” (the action of the throwing down) of Adam's seed and therefore constitute the foundation of this world, which was founded in the midst of sin. The Greek “katabole” is just the noun form, naming the deposit which was made by the action of “kataballo.” It is similar to how “agape'” is the noun form of the verb “agapao.”

    Abel was the first name to be written in God's book of life and for that reason Abel is listed as the first of a long line of faithful witnesses of God:

    Hebrews 11:4 “By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.”

    All these faithful witnesses remained faithful despite situations which would make most of us be tempted to cower in fear, so that, “that they might obtain a better resurrection..” Hebrews 11:35

    All of these names we know are unquestionably written in God's book of life, “these all, having obtained a good report through faith..” Hebrews 11:39

    If the wicked one turns from his sin, his name is written into the book of life: Ezekiel 18:21 “But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”

    If the righteous one whose name is written in the book of life turns back from his righteousness, his name is blotted out of the book of life: Ezekiel 18:24 “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”

    Christ is not nullifying God's Law: Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” - Romans 3:31 “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” - Romans 8:4 “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
     
  20. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Yes, only the foolish would think of their self as having already attained. Even Paul would not claim he had already attained:

    Philippians 3:12 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

    This is not easy for us when we first are taught the truth of it by God's spirit for we have usually had some time and sincerity rolled into having believed it incorrectly. So it takes a bit of time for most to digest it. But they eventually do IF they are of a meek spirit desiring God's pure truth over and above their concern for self in being found wrong.

    Those who have advanced in the truth have become veterans at being found wrong and receiving correction:

    Hebrews 12:6 "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."
     
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