When do you think the Church got corrupted?

Mountainmike

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Neither erroneous nor a logical falasy.
I get the fact that iraneus busts your theological/ historical bubbles. But that's your fault - iraneus is valid history.


Which is both erroneous and a logical fallacy. If knowing the identity of the gospel writers is essential, then so it is for all books of the Bible. However, we do not need to know who the all the writers of Scripture were, nor does Irenaeus tell us, and the unique heavenly character and supernatural attestation is what is essentially responsible for the enduring establishment of inspired books as Scripture among people free to read and assess them.

Moreover, despite whatever weight may be given to Irenaeus , he was not writing as wholly inspired of God, and unless one is then we are not bound to accept what they say unless validly collaborated, any more than we are of all information from sources of Jewish tradition.

But perhaps you would even argue that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that Rome is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Neither erroneous nor a logical falasy.
I get the fact that iraneus busts your theological/ historical bubbles. But that's your fault - iraneus is valid history.
Wrong: both the premise that info by Iraneus is essential and must be right, and that all else such says also must be right and binding as wholly inspired words of the apostles were (Accept him ,and not only accept Paul, but alos you must accept tradition "stay true to tradtion we taught you" and the church as the vehicle of passage ie "the foundation of truth is the church"), is fallacious. Or do you want to contend that that we must follow whoever provides us such tradition, and or that Iraneus and the like were wholly inspired of God, and popes likewise are when they speak what is tradition. If so, go ahead.
 
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Choir Loft

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It didn't. That kind of thinking leads to all kinds of innovations in the name of righting the ship, and then before you know it they are so far unmoored from traditional Christianity that you end up with blatant frauds and heresies like Islam and Mormonism that deceive millions.

There is a difference between having problems (which all churches do) and actually becoming irrecoverably corrupt such that you have to be completely replaced by something else (Islam, Mormonism, etc.), which is the false restorationist narrative. Christ our God said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church, and I for one do not believe for a second that He was lying or wasting His words.

Jesus wasn't lying, but a lot of folks have profited by deliberate obfuscation of His words.

There are two reasons why the church is now an ineffective failure. Today we see division heresy and licentiousness in the church. It's no longer a legitimate representative of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The current situation was predicted by its founder, Jesus Christ in Luke 21:24. The date for the beginning of its present decline was June 1967. When the IDF liberated Jerusalem, the times of the gentiles was fulfilled.

The primary causes of the decline of the church are two; misinterpretation of scripture & control issues.

Misinterpretation
Millions of Catholics assume that when Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail HE was speaking about the Roman Catholic organization in general and Peter as first bishop of Rome.

If you parse the words of Matthew's gospel differently, you can apply it to the protestant communion. You'd make a huge mistake there too.

Scholars generally agree the passage in Matthew 16 applies to the general community of the faithful NOT to an ecclesiastical entity.

Unfortunately this is where everybody parts company with a logical interpretation of Matthew 16. If grace is grace, then grace would be grace for all. Unfortunately no one now believes such a thing to be true or even possible.

Instead we've got many denominations and separations of the church, beginning with The Great Schism of 1054 and extending into the Protestant Reformation to the present day. Each group claims to be THE ONLY vendor of divine grace, thus attempting to usurp the authority of Almighty God for its own benefit and profit. You aren't going to please God unless you are a member of church X or synagogue Y or mosque Z.

Control Issues
The primary cause of divisions in the church (as well as Islam and Judaism) is control.

There can only be a small group of men in control of a religion at any given point in time. For those who covet power the only answer is to divide and create a new religion or a new perspective on an old religion. This is the primary reason for The Great Schism of 1054 as well as the Protestant Reformation.

The same thing happens in local churches with little or no governance of a denominational organization. I'm thinking of non-denominational churches at this point. Without denominational oversight or a heavy hand of management like that of St. Paul, divisions often result in congregational splits with no one in either group ever again speaking or having fellowship with anyone from the other group. One wonders how they will manage their affairs in heaven.

On a nationalistic level numerous arguments arise over petty issues sometimes resulting in outright war. The religious wars of Europe were based upon simple arguments such as the meaning of baptism, Holy Communion, grace, etc.

Control and misinterpretation issues arise simply because a man or group of men want to influence and control the spiritual lives of those who voluntarily devote themselves to their authority.

The baby Jesus is therefore left out in the cold because nobody is concerned about his well being. The crucified Christ is never taken down from the cross because if He ever came back to life His presence would threaten church leadership just as it threatened Jewish leaders who tried to kill Him in the first place. Jews deal with the cross by ignoring its implications and Muslims deny the whole episode altogether. Christians smugly sit back on their haunches, point their fingers at those who disagree and damn the whole lot.

There is little or no place for God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit in the modern church. Most members are too busy with their own affairs to bother seeking God's heart at any level other than a polite attendance once or twice a year in whatever church is open at a convenient time. According to PEW and Gallup polls, regular church attendance defined as one visit a month declined in 2010 to approximately 40% - 50% of 1950 levels. If present trends continue attendance will drop to 10% by 2050.

Questions about where the church went wrong are irrelevant. Nobody cares.

The one simple easy thing to remember is that these are the last days and it is time for all of us to repent and humbly seek God's mercy. He is still ready willing and able to receive all who come to Him in peace.

Will you?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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redleghunter

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Irenaeus is saying scripture is the pillar of our faith not the only pillar though. Cardinal Newman was approaching how the the Church under Saint Constantine the Great tried to come to a cultural understanding with pagans, it never says that they adopted pagan doctrines.
If I mention something is a pillar and foundation and mention nothing else is, what does that tell you?
 
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Scripture only supports believer's baptism by immersion in water in the name of Jesus Christ. The rest is purely conjecture.
Scripture does not, however, expressly forbid that Baptism which has been and is practiced on infants and in the name of the Father, Son , and Holy Spirit, that latter being expressly commanded by Jesus Christ in His great commission, I seem to recall (Matthew 28:19).
 
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Barney2.0

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If I mention something is a pillar and foundation and mention nothing else is, what does that tell you?
I tells me that it is a pillar and foundation, we know through basic logic that a building needs more then one pillar and foundation.
 
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redleghunter

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I tells me that it is a pillar and foundation, we know through basic logic that a building needs more then one pillar and foundation.
Ok I’ll bite. Which traditions did Irenaeus mean when he mentioned traditions? I asked a Roman Catholic the same question but they declined to answer.

Please quote and note the relevant work.
 
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Dave L

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Scripture does not, however, expressly forbid that Baptism which has been and is practiced on infants and in the name of the Father, Son , and Holy Spirit, that latter being expressly commanded by Jesus Christ in His great commission, I seem to recall (Matthew 28:19).
Scripture doesn't teach infant baptism.
 
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Scripture doesn't teach infant baptism.
Scripture doesn't teach against it. And Scripture teaches us to bring the little children unto Christ, and not to hinder them in any way. The only way to do this is through Baptism into His Church.
 
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Dave L

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Scripture doesn't teach against it. And Scripture teaches us to bring the little children unto Christ, and not to hinder them in any way. The only way to do this is through Baptism into His Church.
But, scripture does not teach infant baptism.
 
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But, scripture does not teach infant baptism.
But it does. Because it instructs that all believers are to be baptized, and all infants believe God:

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

Jesus called a little child to stand among them. “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
 
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daydreamer40

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But it does. Because it instructs that all believers are to be baptized, and all infants believe God:

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

Jesus called a little child to stand among them. “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
‘Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts2:38

So infants are firstly to repent?
 
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Ripheus27

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The Church has never been perfect, but one day it will be, so rather than try to restore something that we've never had, ought we not to work towards that which we have been promised that we will have?

It's like Paul's point about not getting too antsy with believers who are still hung up on some of the eating restrictions. He knew the influx of new believers would carry with it imperfections in doctrine. He didn't want the Church to get too obsessed with criticizing each and every detail of this imperfection, especially if the criticism was off-putting for the new believers.
 
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redleghunter

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Wrong: both the premise that info by Iraneus is essential and must be right, and that all else such says also must be right and binding as wholly inspired words of the apostles were (Accept him ,and not only accept Paul, but alos you must accept tradition "stay true to tradtion we taught you" and the church as the vehicle of passage ie "the foundation of truth is the church"), is fallacious. Or do you want to contend that that we must follow whoever provides us such tradition, and or that Iraneus and the like were wholly inspired of God, and popes likewise are when they speak what is tradition. If so, go ahead.
I will note the RC apologetic is that Irenaeus mentions the word “tradition” it means RCs can stuff everything from the assumption of Mary and the tonsure in that one statement. It’s why I always ask which traditions Irenaeus speaks of.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Thanks, however, I mentioned in a previous comment that there is a difference between having some bad teachers and being corrupted.
In that case, the Church is incorrupt. It's the members that are cancers. And I am being sincere.
 
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‘Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts2:38

So infants are firstly to repent?
Infants don't need to repent, because they've nothing yet to repent of. They are humble and simply believe God. In order for us to receive the Kingdom of God, we must convert and become as they already are - believing and humble. We should not hinder our babies, who by their humility are already predisposed to believe God, from growing up in the ways taught by their Lord and Savior.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I will note the RC apologetic is that Irenaeus mentions the word “tradition” it means RCs can stuff everything from the assumption of Mary and the tonsure in that one statement. It’s why I always ask which traditions Irenaeus speaks of.
This is patently not true, RLH. Tonsure is a tradition. The Assumption of Mary is a Tradition. Iranaeus was speaking of Tradition. Not tradition (as in practices).
 
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redleghunter

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This is patently not true, RLH. Tonsure is a tradition. The Assumption of Mary is a Tradition. Iranaeus was speaking of Tradition. Not tradition (as in practices).
I used those as examples of later traditions Irenaeus would have no idea about to make a point.

When I ask which tradition or traditions Irenaeus speaks of I never get an answer even though he explains it in detail.
 
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