When did uniform skirts get so short??

MoNiCa4316

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Long skirts can be pretty. Short skirts can be pretty. Some cultures need their women in burkas while others are so advanced that their women can god topless or nude without driving the men to lust. I tend to think that uncovering our forms rather than so-called modesty (which is often the opposite of modest) is the fast track to seeing the human form as God's art rather than a forbidden fruit.


Adam and Eve were unfallen and could look at each other without lust. Today people are fallen. Being used to immodesty and desensitized doesn't make something modest. A Pope last century said that modesty should be based on the MOST virtuous culture, - one that is not desensitized to it, but one that values it. This means that what our culture considers modest might not be actually modest. It's not all subjective.

Fallen human beings might look at other human beings as objects if they're not covered in the way that they should be. Why tempt them to this? If I tempt a guy, I've sinned, by introducing that battle into his mind, even though it's up to him to make the ultimate choice of saying 'yes' or 'no'.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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The Catechism says that modesty protects the intimate center of the person. Why show everything to everyone? the body is meant to be seen by one's spouse. If a girl in a bikini was walking on a street, wouldn't men have impure thoughts? Adam didn't have lustful thoughts looking at Eve, but they were unfallen. We're not unfallen and get tempted. So we need to protect others and ourselves from that.

God's creation is good. But we have concupiscence which leads to sin. If a girl dresses immodestly, guys aren't going to look at her like Adam looked at Eve.
 
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Rhamiel

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I personally think that long skirts are very pretty :) there are girls at my parish who wear long skirts and I always think they look nice. I don't really care what the fashion industry says.
you have wonderful taste
and
it is so nice to have you back in OBOB
you are such a blessing to everyone who knows you
 
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MikeK

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Modesty is an attitude, not a style of dress. The idea that your body is so amazing that men will be driven to lust because you wore a skirt cut 2" above the knee is contrary to modesty.

Adam and Eve were unfallen and could look at each other without lust. Today people are fallen. Being used to immodesty and desensitized doesn't make something modest. A Pope last century said that modesty should be based on the MOST virtuous culture, - one that is not desensitized to it, but one that values it. This means that what our culture considers modest might not be actually modest. It's not all subjective.

What is this "most virtuous culture" that you speak of? Do the tribal groups that do not cover their genitals but do practice permanent marriages with sexual activity only present inside of marriage lack virtue? Would greater "modesty" benefit them in some way? I'd suggest that they, in terms of cultural virtue related to physical appearences are far and away ahead of our culture in the US, or the culture present in the US 150 years ago, or the culture in ME countries where burkhas are the norm.

Fallen human beings might look at other human beings as objects if they're not covered in the way that they should be. Why tempt them to this? If I tempt a guy, I've sinned, by introducing that battle into his mind, even though it's up to him to make the ultimate choice of saying 'yes' or 'no'.

You know what I think is hot? Like, really gets me going? Head coverings at Mass. On an even average girl, rawr. I've had this discussion with other men and I know I'm in good company. Armed with this knowledge, how will you proceed?

The Catechism says that modesty protects the intimate center of the person. Why show everything to everyone? the body is meant to be seen by one's spouse. If a girl in a bikini was walking on a street, wouldn't men have impure thoughts?

99 times out of 100, no. A simple woman walking in a bikini is not going to give men impure thoughts, especially in those areas where it is the norm. A very, very small percentage of women might look appealing enough in a bikini to warrant a second look, and even fewer to cause a typical man to lust uncontrolably. The woman who is that attractive will likely get that response from men no matter what she wears, short of something silly like a burka or ankle-length denim skirt.

God's creation is good. But we have concupiscence which leads to sin. If a girl dresses immodestly, guys aren't going to look at her like Adam looked at Eve.

That's all well and good, but you cannot deny the effect that the cult of modesty has had on savage cultures. Our land, where a woman may wear virtually whatever she pleases without expecting cat-calls, groping or worse from the men she crosses paths with is far superiort to those cultures which strongly value keeping women covered because they're just so attractive that the men couldn't handle it. I talked earlier about my friend in Finland who quickly grew comfortable taking nude saunas with his wife's family and their neighbors of all ages, male and female. He unlearned what he had unthinkingly grown to accept as fact in the US - that uncovered ladybits are automatically arousing without regard to context. He is in a better place now, finding arousal with his wife at appropriate times and in the right context and not in others.
 
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Winter

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I was in Staples today, and a couple of girls from the local Catholic grammar school came in to buy school supplies, and their skirts were mid thigh!

When did that become acceptable? When I was in Catholic school our skirts had to be long enough that, if we kneeled on the floor, the hem had to be under our knees.

I also remember receiving lectures on why modesty is important. What happened? When did this change?

Back in the 80s we would roll our uniform skirts up at the waist so that the skirts went above the knee. I just remember that if the skirt draped past the knee it was considered "nerdy". Mind you, those skirts were very very long and we were required to wear knee socks. Of course hiking a uniform skirt back then wasn't as bad as we see today - we wouldn't get away with how high they're rolled today.

I'm afraid that norms of modesty are changing. Administrators and teachers are probably oblivious because certain levels of immodesty has become such a norm. When you have young ladies walking around in very short shorts, tight pants, and boobs hanging all over the place (even in older women), suddenly a short skirt isn't as bad relatively speaking. The envelopes (and the skirts) got pushed more and more and everyone's gotten used to it.

On a side note I remember we weren't allowed to wear makeup. We had to pay the school $1.00 if we came to school wearing makeup. I remember getting yelled at for wearing blue eyeshadow (this was the 80s and there was a lot of makeup back then) and was told to either take it off or pay $1.00. I'd no idea about the rule because I was a new student. I just sat there stunned - and I gave the teacher a 1 dollar bill.

But the biggest shock was during talent week - we had to "audition" our voices for a Christmas concert in front of the parish priest and some of the nuns. My friend and I auditioned. We brought in our tape player, stuck in a cassette tape, and began to sing. The song? "Like A Virgin" by Madonna. :doh: It wasn't until I sang the chorus part that I realized what we were singing. I was totally oblivious. The look on the panelists faces ...:o:sorry:
 
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MikeK

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Most men I know think long, luscious hair is a turn-on. Does that mean everyone should just get a Pixie cut?

Yes. Physical fitness is a big turn-on for me too, I find lithe, healthy, toned bodies (no matter how they're covered) to be very sexy. If a woman chooses to wear frumpy clothes to conceal her body but has a pretty face, I can just imagine how sexy her body is. It would be best for my soul if more women were fat and wore less clothes.
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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The concept of modesty isn't culturally conditioned, but by its very nature, it involves cultural variation. The key part of modesty relates to keeping the person visible as a subject rather than an object. When we dress modestly, the core isn't to avoid inspiring lust. It's to project one's self as a person rather than as a set of dehumanized sexual aspects.

So, different cultures and different contexts are going to have different standards of modesty based on what message a particular style of dress sends. Very few people are going to consider a breastfeeding woman to be immodest, although she has a breast entirely exposed. At the same time, very few people are going to consider a woman with only the minimum legal amount of coverage at the beach to be modest, despite the fact that she is wearing a top whereas the breastfeeding woman is not. The difference here is that the woman who is choosing to feed her child is participating in a very human action (giving care to another), whereas the woman on the beach is attempting to objectify herself and thus in some ways to reduce her projected humanity.

Obviously, this applies to men as well. While simply being shirtless might be legal for men in all contexts, there are definitely some situations where it's immodest. The requirement to dress modestly applies to both genders, even if the number of situations where men project an image of immodesty is lower (in part due to different cultural standards).
 
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MikeK

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At the same time, very few people are going to consider a woman with only the minimum legal amount of coverage at the beach to be modest, despite the fact that she is wearing a top whereas the breastfeeding woman is not. The difference here is that the woman who is choosing to feed her child is participating in a very human action (giving care to another), whereas the woman on the beach is attempting to objectify herself and thus in some ways to reduce her projected humanity.

I'm not sure that the typical woman who wears a bikini or man who doesn't wear a shirt at the beach is attempting to objectify themselves and reduce thyeir projected humanity. When sunning, the less clothes the better. When swimming (outside of competition where speacialized suits are required), the less clothes the better.
 
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MKJ

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I don't think that hemlines are "arbitrary". That's just how I feel personally. I think there's a reason women always wore longer skirts until last century. Why did it only start last century? For most of history, women would never have worn something so short. People here might disagree, but please look into the history and pray about it. I tried studying the history of fashion changes and it's not so arbitrary. It's not accidental that skirts are so short today, either. I don't think we should go with the "fashions" whatever they are. Our Lady of Fatima said, there would be fashions that would really offend Our Lord. So no fashion is not arbitrary in the way that "anything" can be modest. Look up some things the Popes have said about modesty... I think today, we're just so used to it we don't question it. But many of our customs have been corrupted. I didn't know about this before, but I did some research and there's a lot to think about.

I only wear mid calf skirts or longer. They need to still cover the legs when the person is seated. I find this is much more lady-like anyways. I also think it just looks nicer. And modest.

In 1910 a mid-calf skirt would have branded you a hussy.

I'l give you one suggestion why hemlines went up in the 20th century - central heating.

In fact if you look outside your own culture, I think you will find that climate is one of the strongest influence on fashion forms for men and women.
 
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MKJ

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I'm not sure that the typical woman who wears a bikini or man who doesn't wear a shirt at the beach is attempting to objectify themselves and reduce thyeir projected humanity. When sunning, the less clothes the better. When swimming (outside of competition where speacialized suits are required), the less clothes the better.

You are right, but I think it is often pretty clear which are the people who are trying to show themselves off and those who have practical reasons for their attire. There is a real push for people to show themselves off as sexual objects in our culture.

A lot of bikinis are actually not very useful for swimming in. I've even seen them made of fabrics that you can't get wet. And what is with this thing lately for men to wear bathing trunks pulled down so far you can almost see their equipment? :o That does not seem practical at all.

I don't mind nudity at beaches - I would actually much prefer nude-er beaches myself, naked is usually better for swimming. But I find it annoying when I see these young buff guys strutting around downtown on hot days with no shirts on - it really is the wrong context. Like wearing a brown suit in the city.
 
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MikeK

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In fact if you look outside your own culture, I think you will find that climate is one of the strongest influence on fashion forms for men and women.

No. Citizens of Vostok Station are Godly and modest. Citizens of Tumatumari Landing are hussies.
 
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MikeK

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You are right, but I think it is often pretty clear which are the people who are trying to show themselves off and those who have practical reasons for their attire. There is a real push for people to show themselves off as sexual objects in our culture.

A lot of bikinis are actually not very useful for swimming in. I've even seen them made of fabrics that you can't get wet. And what is with this thing lately for men to wear bathing trunks pulled down so far you can almost see their equipment? :o That does not seem practical at all.

I don't mind nudity at beaches - I would actually much prefer nude-er beaches myself, naked is usually better for swimming. But I find it annoying when I see these young buff guys strutting around downtown on hot days with no shirts on - it really is the wrong context. Like wearing a brown suit in the city.

I have a strong preference for nude swimming as well, though I would never seek out a nude beach. I am not aware of a trend toward low trunks on men, but I don't doubt that it exists. I am aware that there exists female swimwear which serves no purpose but to comply with requirements that women be clothed.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the young buff guys strutting downtown are being immodest. They are purposefully going outside the norm for the sake of vanity. Swimming and sunning are different, there are reasons why a person might find swimming and sunning without clothes to be better.
 
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MKJ

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The Catechism says that modesty protects the intimate center of the person. Why show everything to everyone? the body is meant to be seen by one's spouse. If a girl in a bikini was walking on a street, wouldn't men have impure thoughts? Adam didn't have lustful thoughts looking at Eve, but they were unfallen. We're not unfallen and get tempted. So we need to protect others and ourselves from that.

God's creation is good. But we have concupiscence which leads to sin. If a girl dresses immodestly, guys aren't going to look at her like Adam looked at Eve.

So why, in your understanding, should we not have all men and women wearing total coverings including the face?

What you are saying takes for granted that there are these obvious lines between the modest and immodest. But you have not given any real understanding of modesty that would account for that. From all your explanations the logical conclusion would be to cover everything.
 
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MKJ

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I have a strong preference for nude swimming as well, though I would never seek out a nude beach. I am not aware of a trend toward low trunks on men, but I don't doubt that it exists. I am aware that there exists female swimwear which serves no purpose but to comply with requirements that women be clothed.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the young buff guys strutting downtown are being immodest. They are purposefully going outside the norm for the sake of vanity. Swimming and sunning are different, there are reasons why a person might find swimming and sunning without clothes to be better.

I wouldn't go to a nude beach on purpose either - people there often have a thing for nudity, which I find creepy. But I would not be upset if culturally we came to accept nude or semi-nude beaches as the norm.

The low cut trunks thing is very odd. This is a not too extreme version:
eDIBU06-A64750198000_4fe91837141c9
 
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Rhamiel

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So why, in your understanding, should we not have all men and women wearing total coverings including the face?

What you are saying takes for granted that there are these obvious lines between the modest and immodest. But you have not given any real understanding of modesty that would account for that. From all your explanations the logical conclusion would be to cover everything.


aesthetics
covering up everything in a burqa is almost gnostic, treating the physical world as evil
we are creatures of body and soul, God made us that way, that is how we are meant to be

there are obvious lines of modesty, the culture we are in treats everything as subjective, they forget that there are objective and traditional aesthetics.
 
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MikeK

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aesthetics
covering up everything in a burqa is almost gnostic, treating the physical world as evil
we are creatures of body and soul, God made us that way, that is how we are meant to be

there are obvious lines of modesty, the culture we are in treats everything as subjective, they forget that there are objective and traditional aesthetics.

I don't agree that the lines of modesty in clothing are obvious, and I submit the great variety in ammount of clothing accepted by different cultures at different times as evidence of that. There is not one set of traditional aesthestics.
 
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MikeK

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The low cut trunks thing is very odd. This is a not too extreme version:
eDIBU06-A64750198000_4fe91837141c9

I rather like those trunks, actually. One of my complaints about most men's swimwear is how hard it is to actually swim in. Outside of competition suits, most modern men's swim trunks are like parachutes in the water.
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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I'm not sure that the typical woman who wears a bikini or man who doesn't wear a shirt at the beach is attempting to objectify themselves and reduce thyeir projected humanity. When sunning, the less clothes the better. When swimming (outside of competition where speacialized suits are required), the less clothes the better.

I was trying to give a clear-cut example without going too in-depth, but I was referring to the "tops" that only cover enough skin surface not to meet the legal definition of public nudity, not to typical swim wear.

MKJ definitely approached the issue of male shirtlessness pretty well, so I'm not really going to go into that. Obviously I wasn't saying that it's immodest in any context, though. I don't wear a shirt while swimming, because that's not even remotely practical.
 
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