When did modernists start teaching easy believism and that Paul preached a different gospel ??

BornAgain2007

Member
Dec 28, 2020
21
10
44
Robbinsville
✟16,301.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Where I grew up most of the churches were spirit filled old timey Independent Fundalmentalist Baptist Churches where the men of God preached ye must be born again. I had never heard the new age easy believism doctrine until I got on Facebook in 2014. I noticed the the modernists believe that Paul preached a different gospel that you only have to believe a summary of what Jesus did to get saved and that you can do that anytime you want. This is heresy to me as we can only get saved when we are under Holy Ghost conviction.
 

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,148,608.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Where I grew up most of the churches were spirit filled old timey Independent Fundalmentalist Baptist Churches where the men of God preached ye must be born again. I had never heard the new age easy believism doctrine until I got on Facebook in 2014. I noticed the the modernists believe that Paul preached a different gospel that you only have to believe a summary of what Jesus did to get saved and that you can do that anytime you want. This is heresy to me as we can only get saved when we are under Holy Ghost conviction.
That’s not modernism. We’ve had disagreements about the importance of works throughout the history of the church. We’ve also had disagreements about what obedience to Christ means. Just because you’re new to the issue doesn’t mean it’s new.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,148,608.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
I'm not talking about works; I am talking about at sometime people started preaching the easy believism. I can't find any evidence of anyone preaching that prior to the 1980s.
Here’s a brief post on the history of this debate. Martin Luther and Johannes Agricola: Antinomianism

Here’s another episode. Antinomianism: It's Bigger than You Think. I haven’t read the book, but if you’re interested in the history of the issue it sounds like it might be worth looking at.

The problem of how to protect justification by faith from antinomianism has occurred several times. There is a corresponding problem how to protect the remedies from becoming legalism.

In case you’re not familiar with it, a classic response is Bonhoeffer’s Cost of Discipleship.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,485
45,435
67
✟2,929,247.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Hello @BornAgain2007, while the free grace vs Lordship salvation controversy seemed to begin in the 1980's, I would quickly add, along with @hedrick, that it was nothing more than a resurgence, because I believe that this controversy has been around, in one form or another, since the beginning of the church.

Officially, I believe that it began with Augustine in the early 5th Century (who held to the Lordship Salvation side of the matter .. see parts 67-69 from Chapter 18 of his Christian handbook at the link below).

The said, I believe that we can look even further back than St. Augustine (though in an unofficial sense), to the Epistle of James 2:14-26, for instance, to see that this controversy is nothing new.

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - here is an interesting quote from A. W. Pink that predates the 1980's controversy by a few decades.


quote-the-nature-of-christ-s-salvation-is-woefully-misrepresented-by-the-present-day-evangelist-arthur-w-pink-60-30-26.jpg
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BornAgain2007

Member
Dec 28, 2020
21
10
44
Robbinsville
✟16,301.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Hello @BornAgain2007, while the free grace vs Lordship salvation controversy seemed to begin in the 1980's, I would quickly add, along with @hedrick, that it was nothing more than a resurgence, because I believe that this controversy has been around, in one form or another, since the beginning of the church.

Officially, I believe it started with Augustine in the early 5th Century (who held to the Lordship Salvation side of the matter .. see parts 67-69 from Chapter 18 of his Christian handbook at the link below).

The said, I believe that we can look even further back than St. Augustine (though in an unofficial sense), to the Epistle of James 2:14-26, for instance, to see that this controversy is nothing new.

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - here is an interesting quote from A. W. Pink that predates the 1980's controversy by a few decades.


quote-the-nature-of-christ-s-salvation-is-woefully-misrepresented-by-the-present-day-evangelist-arthur-w-pink-60-30-26.jpg

Thanks for the reply and that is an interesting quote from Arthur Pink. I believe he may have been aiming it at people that want to get saved but still live in sin.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: St_Worm2
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,716
6,139
Massachusetts
✟586,471.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I had never heard the new age easy believism doctrine until I got on Facebook in 2014.
An easy-believe approach in present history might be used to get a lot of people with money into a church. The motive can be money. So, in history now, there can be an easy believism which is simply marketing.

But I suspect there can be easy believing done by fundamentalist baptists, too . . . in some number of cases.

Ones can get you to say you are a sinner, then tell you to copy-cat a prayer that they say with you, then say, look you got saved and now you are with us! And you can hear the announcements at annual gatherings of some churches, when each church tells everyone how many salvations and baptisms their church had, that year, plus maybe how many new tithers they have.

Even fundamentalists can slip into easy believism . . . when they get more expenses than their members can afford. And then they can push to get more people "saved" so they will have their tithes to pay expenses.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,485
45,435
67
✟2,929,247.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Thanks for the reply and that is an interesting quote from Arthur Pink. I believe he may have been aiming it at people that want to get saved but still live in sin.
Agreed, and (concerning the "aim" of his quote) perhaps even more so at evangelists who do not properly represent the Gospel (because they fail to reveal the whole of it to the lost they are preaching to). We, as God's witnesses, should always be careful to avoid the same thing, yes?

The Lord came here and died on the Cross to save us from our sins .. e.g. Matthew 1:21, not to make it possible for us to continue in them with a kind of newfound abandonment (free from any sense of guilt or fear of punishment).

--David
 
Upvote 0

BornAgain2007

Member
Dec 28, 2020
21
10
44
Robbinsville
✟16,301.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
An easy-believe approach in present history might be used to get a lot of people with money into a church. The motive can be money. So, in history now, there can be an easy believism which is simply marketing.

But I suspect there can be easy believing done by fundamentalist baptists, too . . . in some number of cases.

Ones can get you to say you are a sinner, then tell you to copy-cat a prayer that they say with you, then say, look you got saved and now you are with us! And you can hear the announcements at annual gatherings of some churches, when each church tells everyone how many salvations and baptisms their church had, that year, plus maybe how many new tithers they have.

Even fundamentalists can slip into easy believism . . . when they get more expenses than their members can afford. And then they can push to get more people "saved" so they will have their tithes to pay expenses.

Very good point you have there.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: com7fy8
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,148,608.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
One problem with discussions about free grace is that people don't agree on where to draw the line between grace and antinomiansm.

The following is part of a summary of Luther's theology, taken from Ottati's systematic theology. Luther is a complex person, whose views may not always have been consistent over time, and are interpreted differently by different people. But this seems a fair characterization of Luther and a lot of traditional Protestant theology:

"The person who holds fast to the gospel promises “with a firm faith” has no need of works or the law to be justified. “He is free from law” in the sense that, before God, he enjoys an inner liberty with respect to his worth and salvation. Hence, “a Christian is a perfectly free lord of all, subject to none.” At the same time, the faithful Christian continues to live in the midst of multiple outward relationships and responsibilities. “Here, the works begin; here a man cannot enjoy leisure.” But the forgiven sinner knows that his justification does not depend on these works, and so his inability to fulfill the law need not torment him. He therefore performs his works out of gratitude and spontaneous love in obedience to and praise of God in Christ, who accepts him (faults and all) by grace alone. He offers his works, says Luther, as we may imagine that Adam and Eve in paradise, who had no sin and no need of being justified by works or the law, offered theirs—freely, simply to please God, and not to obtain righteousness."
(Ottati, D. F. (2020). A Theology for the Twenty-First Century, p. 589)

Would the OP consider this Gospel or easy-believism? Contemporary Catholics certainly considered it easy-believism.
 
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
4,405
1,617
43
San jacinto
✟128,742.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's the confusion of a preposition. Many mistake Jesus setting us free from sin as Jesus setting us free to sin. There are multiple sources and incarnations, but if there's a historical person to "blame" for the situation, it's Luther as the first to separate justification from sanctification. When those bonds were loosed and "salvation by faith" became a dividing line, it was inevitable that some would take "faith alone" to literally mean "faith by itself" rather than "faith apart from works" and teach that the only thing that matters is what one "believes."
 
  • Useful
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,457
26,886
Pacific Northwest
✟732,154.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Where I grew up most of the churches were spirit filled old timey Independent Fundalmentalist Baptist Churches where the men of God preached ye must be born again. I had never heard the new age easy believism doctrine until I got on Facebook in 2014. I noticed the the modernists believe that Paul preached a different gospel that you only have to believe a summary of what Jesus did to get saved and that you can do that anytime you want. This is heresy to me as we can only get saved when we are under Holy Ghost conviction.

It sounds to me like culture shock. You were sheltered in your own theological bubble, and then you discovered there's a lot of Christianity outside of that bubble.

The same thing happened to me about 20 years ago, but my bubble was Pentecostal/Evangelical.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Shane R
Upvote 0

BornAgain2007

Member
Dec 28, 2020
21
10
44
Robbinsville
✟16,301.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
It sounds to me like culture shock. You were sheltered in your own theological bubble, and then you discovered there's a lot of Christianity outside of that bubble.

The same thing happened to me about 20 years ago, but my bubble was Pentecostal/Evangelical.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't consider what I discovered outside of my bubble Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,457
26,886
Pacific Northwest
✟732,154.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I don't consider what I discovered outside of my bubble Christianity.

Neither did I. I assumed what I had been raised with was de facto Christianity. But it wasn't. Christianity is a lot bigger. And one should have their assumptions challenged, because what matters isn't personal comfort but truth.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,148,608.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
It's the confusion of a preposition. Many mistake Jesus setting us free from sin as Jesus setting us free to sin. There are multiple sources and incarnations, but if there's a historical person to "blame" for the situation, it's Luther as the first to separate justification from sanctification. When those bonds were loosed and "salvation by faith" became a dividing line, it was inevitable that some would take "faith alone" to literally mean "faith by itself" rather than "faith apart from works" and teach that the only thing that matters is what one "believes."
It wasn't his intent to separate justification from sanctification, but to distinguish between them. That is, they are two conceptually distinguished things that occur together.
 
Upvote 0

BornAgain2007

Member
Dec 28, 2020
21
10
44
Robbinsville
✟16,301.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Perhaps a definition of "easy-believism" is in order. I've heard this term many times, but it seems different people use it to mean different things.

-CryptoLutheran

Easy believism is where people claim you can get saved anytime you want without being under Holy Ghost Convction.

I was very blessed to grow up in a community in North Carolina where Holy Ghost-filled Fundamental Missionary Baptist churches were everywhere. People feared God where I lived and fought sin, and there were no bars in town; in fact, you couldn't buy alcohol legally anywhere in the county! When I was real young, all the stores were even closed on Sundays.

All the preachers preached that God MUST be drawing you before you can get saved; in other words, you must be under Holy Ghost Conviction before you can get saved. That is how I got saved; God convicted me, and I went to the altar and got saved. I had never heard anything different until 2011 when my church was in a revival that lasted for six weeks, and the church was full every night, and people were going to the altars every night and getting saved.

One night, I noticed some people there from the first baptist church that had recently been infiltrated by modernists who had moved into my community. The next day, they started saying that the preachers were making the kids afraid by preaching about hell. Then they put up signs with symbols on them representing easy believism. They claimed that all you had to do was believe a summary about Jesus in 1st Corinthians 15 anytime you wanted, and you would be automatically saved. I had never heard such heresy, but I got on Facebook in different groups and noticed many churches teaching that false doctrine.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Shane R
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,457
26,886
Pacific Northwest
✟732,154.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Easy believism is where people claim you can get saved anytime you want without being under Holy Ghost Convction.

I was very blessed to grow up in a community in North Carolina where Holy Ghost-filled Fundamental Missionary Baptist churches were everywhere. People feared God where I lived and fought sin, and there were no bars in town; in fact, you couldn't buy alcohol legally anywhere in the county! When I was real young, all the stores were even closed on Sundays.

All the preachers preached that God MUST be drawing you before you can get saved; in other words, you must be under Holy Ghost Conviction before you can get saved. That is how I got saved; God convicted me, and I went to the altar and got saved. I had never heard anything different until 2011 when my church was in a revival that lasted for six weeks, and the church was full every night, and people were going to the altars every night and getting saved.

One night, I noticed some people there from the first baptist church that had recently been infiltrated by modernists who had moved into my community. The next day, they started saying that the preachers were making the kids afraid by preaching about hell. Then they put up signs with symbols on them representing easy believism. They claimed that all you had to do was believe a summary about Jesus in 1st Corinthians 15 anytime you wanted, and you would be automatically saved. I had never heard such heresy, but I got on Facebook in different groups and noticed many churches teaching that false doctrine.

Well, I gotta say, I'm not liking your alternative to "easy-believism", it sounds like a whole lot of moralistic and legalistic nonsense.

-CryptoLuthean
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,180
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,582.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I am extremely opposed to liberal theology and modernism, which I see being responsible for the devastating decline of the mainline Protestant churches in the US, many of which I greatly loved and many of which still have individual parishes which I do love. Now, that being said, I am confused both by the practices of the Baptist churches you describe before the arrival of the “easy-believest” modernists, and by the practices of the modernists. Specifically:

Easy believism is where people claim you can get saved anytime you want without being under Holy Ghost Convction.

I was very blessed to grow up in a community in North Carolina where Holy Ghost-filled Fundamental Missionary Baptist churches were everywhere. People feared God where I lived and fought sin, and there were no bars in town; in fact, you couldn't buy alcohol legally anywhere in the county! When I was real young, all the stores were even closed on Sundays.

I don’t see how your county being a “dry county” with “Blue laws”, that is to say, a county without alcohol sales or without stores being open on Sunday, inherently translates to any specific piety. Alcohol consumption is permitted in the New Testament, and is indeed endorsed by our Lord at the Wedding Feast in Cana, where he did miraculously change water into wine, as recorded in the Gospel According to John 2:1-11 . Likewise, Paul directs Timothy in his pastoral epistles to him to “take a little wine for thy stomach.” Scripture clearly takes a disfavorable view of drunkenness, however, but it is widely known that the dry counties in certain US states do have populations of alcoholics who buy their alcohol out of county.

All the preachers preached that God MUST be drawing you before you can get saved;

This is actually the traditional and nearly universal Christian belief, which is to say, it is the Holy Spirit which calls us to repentance and enables us to choose to follow Christ (or in the case of Calvinism, God’s grace is irresistible and the elect do not actually exercise free will, but rather the Holy Spirit draws them to God irresistibly). The alternative perspective, Pelagianism, states we can save ourselves, and indeed has been considered a heresy since the fifth century (when Pelagius was opposed by Augustine and John Cassian). However, Pelagianism is not a popular ideology among “easy-believists.” There are very few adherents of the Pelagian heresy around these days; a decade ago, one bishop in the Episcopal Church suggested a rehabilitation of Pelagius, and that idea was not well received, and the Episcopal Church unfortunately has very strong modernist elements. But even they would agree that God’s grace is what enables us to embrace the Christian faith and that is essential to our salvation.

in other words, you must be under Holy Ghost Conviction before you can get saved.

Could you define “Holy Ghost Conviction”? This particular term I have not encountered before - I would assume that if one is “under Holy Ghost Conviction,” that means the Holy Ghost has called them to repentance?

That is how I got saved; God convicted me, and I went to the altar and got saved. I had never heard anything different until 2011 when my church was in a revival that lasted for six weeks, and the church was full every night, and people were going to the altars every night and getting saved.

What precisely were you and others doing at the altars each night to be saved? And why are you using altars in the plural? While some churches do have more than one altar, it is unusual for more than one to be used in a service (and against the rules in many denominations). Are you referring to altar calls?

One night, I noticed some people there from the first baptist church that had recently been infiltrated by modernists who had moved into my community. The next day, they started saying that the preachers were making the kids afraid by preaching about hell.

Unfortunately, there is a trend in Modernism, distantly related I think to Universalism, which is afraid of preaching things about the Christian faith which might potentially frighten people. As an example, the Revised Common Lectionary omits 1 Corinthians 11:27-34 , presumably because the editors thereof do not want to risk discouraging the frequent reception of Holy Communion, but I feel this is misguided, as the entirety of what the Apostle Paul preached concerning the Holy Communion should be heard.

That being said, if you had preachers who were actually frightening the children through their sermons, concerning hellfire and damnation and related topics, I would argue they were doing a poor job of preaching on the subject. A good sermon should stress how our Lord defeated Hell on the cross and how those who believe on him can be saved and receive life everlasting.

Then they put up signs with symbols on them representing easy believism.

Could you describe these signs and the symbols on them?

They claimed that all you had to do was believe a summary about Jesus in 1st Corinthians 15 anytime you wanted, and you would be automatically saved. I had never heard such heresy, but I got on Facebook in different groups and noticed many churches teaching that false doctrine.

That sounds very strange; I personally have never encountered that, and I am also confused, because earlier you had indicated that your local modernists were claiming that Paul’s teachings were different from those of our Lord, and invalid.

I'm not talking about works; I am talking about at sometime people started preaching the easy believism. I can't find any evidence of anyone preaching that prior to the 1980s.

Actually, it has been preached, in its present form, since at least the 16th, 17th or 18th century, when you had the emergence of explicitly Universalist churches, as well as churches which de-emphasized the need for personal repentance, and also, heretical Unitarian churches which denied the deity of our Lord and went on, subsequently, in the 19th century, to deny the need for faith in Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation. Theological modernism I would argue coalesced in the 18th century from various “Enlightenment” ideals and formed over the course of the 19th century into what we know today, which is a theology I do thoroughly reject.
 
Upvote 0