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When are your sins forgiven?

Discussion in 'Hamartiology' started by cougan, Apr 21, 2002.

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  1. StPaulofHurstbridge

    StPaulofHurstbridge New Member

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    In the house of Cornelius when they received the Holy Ghost first - the Disciples then said - Can any man forbid water that these should not be baptised - who have received the Holy Spirit as we?
    This to me makes it very clear about the bible directives in the case of those who received the Holy Spirit before baptism is water. The BIBLE tells you to be baptised - just because it did not explicity say in Acts 2:38 to be baptised in water - by cross referencing the bible in other areas we can see that the implication is to be baptised in water and that is what is being implied in Acts 2:38. Otherwise the the apostles were lying to the house of Cornelius when he directed them to be baptised after that they received the Holy Spirit. Also ommitting Water baptism would make jesus a liar when He told Nicodemus that he must be born of water and the spirit or he cannot see or enter the kingdom of heaven. Please reconsider your position on this, it is too much of an important issue to go on a hunch - the Holy Spirit would never adjure you to go against scripture.
     
  2. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    There's a whole slew of verses listed in the Baptism thread in the Interfaith Discussion where water Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.

    Another means of forgiveness is when you are forgiven your sins by a valid member of the Apostolic Succession. "Whose sins you retain will be retained in heaven, whose sins you loose will be loosed in heaven."


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  3. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    All have sined Rom 3:23 If you say you do not sin you deceive youself 1John 1:8 Even the inspried apostle Peter sined Gal 2:11. We need to repent of our sins Acts 8:22. You see if we continue to walk in the light(note the action word walk. That is to continue walking if we get pulled down by sin we need stand back up and continue walking in the light)then all our sins are fogiven 1John 1:7. Thank God for his forgiven grace. If you choose to willfully sin and not repent (that is to stop doing whatever sin you are involved in)remember that sin seperates you from God making you become spiritualy dead Rom 6:23 and can cause you to fall from grace Gal 5:4.


    I would like to offer another verse that shows that water is what is used for baptism.

    ACTS 8:35  Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
    36  And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
    37  And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
    38  And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

    Now watch this. The church is Christ body Eph 1:22-23 and baptism put you into the body 1Cort 12:13 and Jesus is the saviour of the body Eph 5:23. So would'nt it seem logical to you that you must be in the body of christ in order to be saved and the way you get into the body is through baptism? Again my challenge has not been meet. Show me just 1 verse that says that faith by itself puts you into christ body or his death. Baptism represent the death, burial and resurection of Jesus.

    Romans 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

    This only occurs at baptism. Please take the time to read all of Rom 6. I don't see how anyone who reads this chapter and studies it can deny that baptism in water (not Holy Spirt Baptism)is required for you to enter into the body or the church whis is Jesus.

    As a side note I would like to add that there are only 2 recorded occurences of HS Baptism. The first was on the apostles at pentacost as a sign that the kingdom of christ had begun with power. Mark 9:1 and the second was on the household of Cornellius as sign to show that God views gentiles as equally to the Jews in being able to become childern of god added to the body by the means of baptism.

    How can you deny Act 22:16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    Paul had faith and he belived in Christ and was praying for 3 days but yet his sins would not be removed until he was baptized. The water is not magic but it is the means that you come in contact with the cleansing power of Jesus blood Rev1:5 thourgh you faith in the working operation of God Col 2:12.
     
  4. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    Another means of forgiveness is when you are forgiven your sins by a valid member of the Apostolic Succession. "Whose sins you retain will be retained in heaven, whose sins you loose will be loosed in heaven."

    I'm truely sorry you feel this way. You only have forgiveness of sin by the blood of Jesus. The apostles do not have the ability to forgive someone of their sins. You put your mere men that call themselfs apostles = with Jesus Christ. Even the real apostles of the 1st century didnt consider themself = with Jesus but humbled themselves as servants of christ. If you would like to open a thread on Catholsism do it and I will be right there.

    We can talk about things like Peter being married and haveing kids. We could cover how the bible doesnt say anywhere about the apostle having a succesor. We might talk about how Jesus is the head of the church and not the Pope. We could talk about Mary and how she had more kids after Jesus was born and the list could go on and on. I would love to have a discussion with in private or in a new thread about this. I think it would make an interesting topic of discussion. :)
     
  5. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    I haven't read any posts in this thread, except for the above.

    In the plan as revealed by God in the OT temple/sanctuary services, sins are forgiven when they are confessed unto the sacrifice. However, they are still recorded and remain in the sanctuary until the annual Day of Atonement cleansing by the High Priest.

    Jesus will complete the work of the High Priest prior to His return to earth to raise the dead. When He ascended to heaven, He BEGAN the work as High Priest.

    See this link for more information:

    http://www.amazingfacts.org/catalog/pb/bk-bbv.html
    [​IMG]
     
  6. hopeofglory10

    hopeofglory10 New Member

    32
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    Your sins are forgiven when you are baptized according to Acts 2:38. Your sins will continue to be forgiven as long as you are "walking in the light" (maintaining an attitude of repentance in your life) according to 1 Jn. 1:7. God bless us, every one.
     
  7. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    Remember in the OT? How were the people forgive for their sins? By sacrificing an animal. After that they were forgiven for those paticual sins. Christ was our sacrifice, are sins are forgiven as soon as we accept HIM into our hearts. In the OT....is says nothing about baptism and that being the forgiveness of sins.
    Saying that the water is what "clenses us" is slapping christ in the face and saying..."your death is NOT good enought" I MUST be REALLY REALLY clean!
    ALL sins were forgive at the time Jesus died. When are we forgiven?? When he is "within" us and that is when we accpet him and confess with our mouths.
    There are plenty of people in the bible that were "forgiven" before they were baptized.
    GEL
     
  8. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Gel,

    Amen

    Blessings
     
  9. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    And another thing...lets look at it this way...
    Hey...you men out there....AT what time do you become a father?? Is it at the time of conception or at birth??
    Does it mean your not a father because the baby didn't literally preform the action of comming out into this world yet???
    aT WHAT TIME ARE we CHILDREN OF god??? IS IT WHEN WE ASK TO BE HIS CHILD...OR WHEN WE PREFORM THE ACTION OF BAPTISM....hmmmmmMMMMMMMMMM
    GEL
     
  10. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    I firmly believe that we are forgiven the moment we become born again(by believing, receiving, and confessing Jesus) and that there is absolutely nothing that can be added to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. It is finished and all of our sins are paid in full.

    Just my thoughts.
     
  11. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    The religion of Christ means more than the forgiveness of sin; it means taking away our sins, and filling the vacuum with the graces of the Holy Spirit. It means divine illumination, rejoicing in God. It means a heart emptied of self, and blessed with the abiding presence of Christ. When Christ reigns in the soul, there is purity, freedom from sin. The glory, the fullness, the completeness of the gospel plan is fulfilled in the life. The acceptance of the Saviour brings a glow of perfect peace, perfect love, perfect assurance. The beauty and fragrance of the character of Christ revealed in the life testifies that God has indeed sent His Son into the world to be its Saviour
     
  12. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    Hebrews 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    Do you beleive that you live under the law of Moses? You are trying to draw conclusions from it so I would assume that you believe that we are under it.
    Since baptism unites you with Christ and puts you into his body why would the OT teach about baptism and the forgiveness of sin. The OT was a tutor to bring us to Christ Gal 3:24
    You are missing the point. There is nothing magical about the water, it has to do with your obedince to gods word. Jhon 14:15 So its a slap in the face to Jesus when you do not obey his word and be baptized into his death. Rom 6.

    Since you so found of the OT I will give you an example of obedience. We have Naahma, which has leprosy. He is told what he can do to be rid of his leprosy. He is told to dip 7 times in the Jordan River. He was hesitant at first, but through his obedience through faith, he did it. He was healed of his leprosy after he dipped himself the 7th time. If he had only dipped 6 times he would still have is leprosy.
    2 Kings 5 14Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

    Again it is your faith in the operartion of God that when you are baptized you know that your sins are being washed away by the blood of Jesus and that you are being united with him and being added to the body of Jesus. Col 2:12,Rom 6 Is baptism getting physcial cleaner, absoultly not. 1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    I have stated it again and again. It takes grace, faith, repentence, confession, and baptism all working together to have forgiveness of sins. You can not simply just be baptized without these other things or your just getting wet. I have answered all your questions and statements in my previous post. Maybe you should read them again with an open mind. They are as clear as day. I want you to seriouly consider what I have presented because I am very concerned about people being mislead into thinking they are in a saved condition when they are not.

    Galatians 1:6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    Romans 10:1  Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    2  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    3  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    Now this may offend you but it is not my intent I am just boldly stateing Gods word and I am deeply concerned about this basic fundamental subject. I just ask you to open your bibles and dig in to what I have presented in these post and see if they are so. If you would like to read another paper I wrote on salvation go to http://www.ardmoreweb.com/christ/

    Nice anology. But it has absolutly nothing to do with baptism. How about proving you view by book chapter verse as I have done. I will take you view very serious if you show me just 1 verse that says that faith only puts you into Jesus death. Good luck so far nobody on this entire post has been able to do it. This is the 3rd time I have issued this challenge.
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "It takes grace, faith, repentence, confession, and baptism all working together to have forgiveness of sins"

    Really? Explain the guy on the cross beside Jesus? Only faith is required, through grace. Grace through faith in Christ for salvation and justification. :)
     
  14. hopeofglory10

    hopeofglory10 New Member

    32
    +0
    You will have to do much better than that !
    The thief on the cross lived under the Mosaical law,
    not the law of Christ.
    Also, Jesus claimed the power to forgive sins on earth.
     
  15. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    THE THIEF ON THE CROSS

    Let’s examine the thief on the cross. "He was forgiven his sins and Jesus tells him he will be in paradise with him. He wasn’t baptized therefore baptism isn’t necessary." I have heard this statement before. First of all, the bible doesn’t state weather this thief had been baptized or not before he was crucified (of course it would have to be of Johns baptism). It is possible either way. Second, Christ had not died yet. His covenant did not come into effect until he died. While he was still alive no one could be baptized into his death. When Jesus did die, the curtain that separated man from God was torn from top to bottom. Third, Jesus had the authority to forgive sins on earth. Mark 210“But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins” Therefore, whether this thief was baptized or not, Jesus had the authority to forgive him of his sins and tell him that he would be in paradise with him.
     
  16. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    When are your sins forgiven?

    When you believe.

    Blessings
     
  17. GreenEyedLady

    GreenEyedLady My little Dinky Doo

    +164
    Baptist
    I agree mike...
    :shrug:
     
  18. jtcoop

    jtcoop Junior Member

    18
    +0
    How about Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

    or

    Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him,(thief on the cross whom was not baptised) Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    I'm still looking for the one that states you are saved by grace not works.
    Let me ask this then, If someone accepts Christ as their savior on their death bed and is not baptised are they any more or less saved???
     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "You will have to do much better than that !
    The thief on the cross lived under the Mosaical law,
    not the law of Christ."

    So christ's sacrifice isn't transendant of time? Christ himself said he didn't come to change the conventant. Abraham wasn't baptised either, but he went to heaven the exact same way we do. This is what Paul is explaining in romans :) Sorry to tell ya, baptism isn't needed to go to heaven, to be saved, etc. It is to identify you with the church and it does play a significant role in your santification in my opinion, but you don't need to be baptised to be saved, just have faith. :)
     
  20. jtcoop

    jtcoop Junior Member

    18
    +0
    Amen LB you don't have to be baptised to get into heaven. But I think we can all agree that baptism helps us in our walk with Christ. I understand that it is like we join the wedding party of Christ Jesus kind of a RSVP to the day when Christ is joined together with the Church.
    Now we are off the subject. I believe that your sins are forgiven the moment you accept Christ as your Savoir. A public profession shows you are not ashamed of your decision to follw Christ (He is your Lord) :bow: . And the baptism is a public expression of you joining or reuniting yourself with the family off God.I say reuniting in the sense that were are all separated from God in the garden of Eden.

    To all who read this I am so glad I was able to find the Christian Forum. If you have been to some of the other public sites you can become disheartened by all the flamming and slamming that goes on. To the creator(s) and staff I say Thank YOU and may God Continue to pour His Blessing upon you and your families. :D
     
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