LDS when and how did God become the father of our spirits

Peter1000

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Yahweh Elohim should be translated, Jehovah, or Gods, or of the Council of the Gods, at least the first time in Genesis 2,-Peter1000
I do apologize. That this should read: Yahweh Elohim should be translated, Jehovah of the Gods, or of the Council of the Gods, at least the first time in Genesis 2,-Peter1000[/QUOTE]
'Yahweh' is his name, and 'Elohim' tells us he is one of the Gods or from the Council of the Gods.

In no way is Yahweh Elohim translated as the Council of Gods.
Your right, it should be translated Yahweh of the Council of the Gods.

That is a Mormon invention---- which I notice you provide no proof for. This is what it means:
This is certainly not a Mormon invention. JS just did not wake up one morning and say, Elohim means Gods, and the whole world went into nervous convulsions. The word Elohim is a difficult word the scholars have had a hard time getting their arms around.
You have to read many articles on the internet to start getting an appreciation for what JS said about the word Elohim. What JS has said and his conclusions is actually genius.
"Yahweh Elohim is the Old Testament name attributed to the New Testament Word, who is Jesus Christ. Learn why these names are eternal, not testament specific."

You are right about this.
 
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Peter1000

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There are no 3 personages, there is one God and He said:

Isa 45:5 I am Jehovah, and there is no other; there is no God but Me. I will strengthen you, though you do not know Me,
So now the Holy Trinity is one Person in one God? I don't think so.

You must also understand that Jehovah is just one of the 3 Persons in the great Truine God. The other being God the FAther and the other is the Holy Spirit.

Which one of these Persons said, there is no Gods beside me? Or did they say it in unison?
 
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Jamesone5

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I do apologize. That this should read: Yahweh Elohim should be translated, Jehovah of the Gods, or of the Council of the Gods, at least the first time in Genesis 2,-
'Yahweh' is his name, and 'Elohim' tells us he is one of the Gods or from the Council of the Gods.


Your right, it should be translated Yahweh of the Council of the Gods.


This is certainly not a Mormon invention. JS just did not wake up one morning and say, Elohim means Gods, and the whole world went into nervous convulsions. The word Elohim is a difficult word the scholars have had a hard time getting their arms around.
You have to read many articles on the internet to start getting an appreciation for what JS said about the word Elohim. What JS has said and his conclusions is actually genius.


You are right about this.

So you want to partially argue with only JS's claims or what you say are JS's claims.

You did, after all, say I was right three times so maybe I will give you partial credit.
 
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Peter1000

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when one Personage says it--- they all say it.
Does the Father have to be present when the Holy
Spirit leads you to His Truth through God's Word?
If they are one God then yes. IOW if they are one God, then where the Holy Spirit is, there God the FAther is, there Jesus is also. They are the one Triune God. They are one God.

Now if you were a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, you can say no, the Father does not have to be present when the Holy Spirit is leading you to His Truth through God's Word.

The Father sent the Holy Ghost to witness of His Son. While He stays in the heavens and governs the universe.

But if you believe they are one. Then yes, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all present when the Holy Spirit leads you into the truth.
 
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Peter1000

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So you want to partially argue with only JS's claims or what you say are JS's claims.

You did, after all, say I was right three times so maybe I will give you partial credit.
No, I will argue with lots of articles in the internet about Elohim, of which JS contribution is genius.

Do you not know that the scholars have been debating who Elohim is for millennia?

Oh, btw, it is nice when we agree.
 
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Jamesone5

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No, I will argue with lots of articles in the internet about Elohim, of which JS contribution is genius.

Do you not know that the scholars have been debating who Elohim is for millennia?

Oh, btw, it is nice when we agree.

You would be hard pressed to find any Christian agreeing that Elohim means Council of Gods or a Divine Council.. In fact is that it really from a myth that has been around for a long time

God’s Divine council
 
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He is the way

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So the Gospel is in the OT?
That is what you are claiming?
That the people in the OT could come to the Gospel of Christ without Christ?
Those who lived in the Old Testament times Had the commandments of LOVE to guide them:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 6:5)

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

(Old Testament | Leviticus 19:18)

18 ¶ Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
 
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Jamesone5

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Those who lived in the Old Testament times Had the commandments of LOVE to guide them:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 6:5)

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

(Old Testament | Leviticus 19:18)

18 ¶ Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Seems the OT people were not listening.
Matthew 19:8
He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.


Zechariah 8:17
Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these are things that I hate,’ Says the Lord.”





The had laws from Moses onward where they did not listen to this love thy neighbor as yourself that indicated God allowed for their hard hearts in many ways.



In the NT with Christ, Love or charity towards our neighbor was emphasized. So the Gospel of Christ could then be introduced.

Mark 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
 
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Peter1000

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You would be hard pressed to find any Christian agreeing that Elohim means Council of Gods or a Divine Council.. In fact is that it really from a myth that has been around for a long time

God’s Divine council
Yes, I would agree with you, however, many do.

Whether it translates to "Council of the Gods" is really unimportant. What is important is that Elohim should be translated "Gods". That is not a myth, that is what Moses wrote. It is after Moses that much smarter men said, he really didn't mean Gods, therefore we will translate it
"God". There, that feels much better.

And the bible is changed and the truth buried.
 
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He is the way

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Seems the OT people were not listening.
Matthew 19:8
He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.


Zechariah 8:17
Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these are things that I hate,’ Says the Lord.”





The had laws from Moses onward where they did not listen to this love thy neighbor as yourself that indicated God allowed for their hard hearts in many ways.



In the NT with Christ, Love or charity towards our neighbor was emphasized. So the Gospel of Christ could then be introduced.

Mark 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Sadly people have not listened to the gospel of LOVE and continue to sin. All sin is against LOVE and God. How people treat their neighbor is how they are treating God:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:40 - 45)

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
 
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Jamesone5

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If they are one God then yes. IOW if they are one God, then where the Holy Spirit is, there God the FAther is, there Jesus is also. They are the one Triune God. They are one God.

Now if you were a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, you can say no, the Father does not have to be present when the Holy Spirit is leading you to His Truth through God's Word.

The Father sent the Holy Ghost to witness of His Son. While He stays in the heavens and governs the universe.

But if you believe they are one. Then yes, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all present when the Holy Spirit leads you into the truth.

Where the Holy spirit is God the Father is and then Jesus in His flesh and bone body------and then it need not be so if You are a Member? Got that about right?

What then about the converts who have yet to join your Church?

God the Father has to be there, along with Christ with the Holy Spirit when they receive the Power of your Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost? And the gift of the Holy Ghost is somehow different?
 
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Jamesone5

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Sadly people have not listened to the gospel of LOVE and continue to sin. All sin is against LOVE and God. How people treat their neighbor is how they are treating God:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:40 - 45)

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Sadly people have not listened to the gospel of LOVE and continue to sin----HITW

where does the Bible list this gospel of LOVE---in the OT and not the Gospel of Christ in the NT?

You posted NT verses that do no even mention the word Love or Charity, btw

And, I have read those familiar verses many time and do honor what Christ is saying. Even do a song that has a part of those very words in it. It even uses similar words at the ending -----"if you did it not for the least of these, you did it not for Me"
 
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Jamesone5

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If they are one God then yes. IOW if they are one God, then where the Holy Spirit is, there God the FAther is, there Jesus is also. They are the one Triune God. They are one God.

Now if you were a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, you can say no, the Father does not have to be present when the Holy Spirit is leading you to His Truth through God's Word.

The Father sent the Holy Ghost to witness of His Son. While He stays in the heavens and governs the universe.

But if you believe they are one. Then yes, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all present when the Holy Spirit leads you into the truth.

]If they are one God then yes. IOW if they are one God, then where the Holy Spirit is, there God the FAther is, there Jesus is also. They are the one Triune God. They are one God--Peter1000

Seems like you partially have it here as you are allowing for the possibility of One God. Now we need to work on where this ONE God is.
 
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Jamesone5

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Yes, I would agree with you, however, many do.

Whether it translates to "Council of the Gods" is really unimportant. What is important is that Elohim should be translated "Gods". That is not a myth, that is what Moses wrote. It is after Moses that much smarter men said, he really didn't mean Gods, therefore we will translate it
"God". There, that feels much better.

And the bible is changed and the truth buried.

So now you say this "Council of Gods" interpretation in now unimportant?

Whether it translates to "Council of the Gods" is really unimportant. What is important is that Elohim should be translated "Gods"---Peter1000

When you said this previously:

I do apologize. That this should read: Yahweh Elohim should be translated, Jehovah of the Gods, or of the Council of the Gods, at least the first time in Genesis 2,-Peter1000

Now for the rest of what you claimed in the first segment of what I added.

Strong's Concordance Strong's Hebrew: 430. אֱלֹהִים (elohim) -- God, god
elohim: God, god
Original Word: אֱלהִים
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: elohim
Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem')
Definition: God, god

There is no GodS there anywhere.

Where we get the plural designation is simply two Personage of the same ONE God
 
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Andrewn

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So now the Holy Trinity is one Person in one God? I don't think so.
The ambiguity of the term "person" has been addressed by Trinitarian scholar and Christian apologist Alister McGrath:

"The word 'person' has changed its meaning since the third century when it began to be used in connection with the 'threefoldness of God'. When we talk about God as a person, we naturally think of God as being one person. But theologians such as Tertullian, writing in the third century, used the word 'person' with a different meaning. The word 'person' originally derives from the Latin word persona, meaning an actor's face-mask—and, by extension, the role which he takes in a play. By stating that there were three persons but only one God, Tertullian was asserting that all three major roles in the great drama of human redemption are played by the one and the same God. The three great roles in this drama are all played by the same actor: God. Each of these roles may reveal God in a somewhat different way, but it is the same God in every case. So when we talk about God as one person, we mean one person in the modern sense of the word, and when we talk about God as three persons, we mean three persons in the ancient sense of the word. ... Confusing these two senses of the word 'person' inevitably leads to the idea that God is actually a committee.[17]"

You must also understand that Jehovah is just one of the 3 Persons in the great Truine God. The other being God the FAther and the other is the Holy Spirit.
You haven't proven this.

Which one of these Persons said, there is no Gods beside me? Or did they say it in unison?
I answered this already. But you haven't answered my question: Which person is Jehovah in this verse?

Ps 110:1 Jehovah said to my lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
until I make your enemies
your footstool.”

Ps 110:4 Jehovah has sworn
and will not change,
“You are a priest forever
after the order of Melchizedek.”
 
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Sadly people have not listened to the gospel of LOVE and continue to sin----HITW

where does the Bible list this gospel of LOVE---in the OT and not the Gospel of Christ in the NT?

You posted NT verses that do no even mention the word Love or Charity, btw

And, I have read those familiar verses many time and do honor what Christ is saying. Even do a song that has a part of those very words in it. It even uses similar words at the ending -----"if you did it not for the least of these, you did it not for Me"
You said: "where does the Bible list this gospel of LOVE---in the OT and not the Gospel of Christ in the NT?"

I posted those scriptures already:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 6:5)

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

(Old Testament | Leviticus 19:18)

18 ¶ Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

It was Jesus Christ who gave us these scriptures. He is the God of Israel.
 
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Peter1000

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Where the Holy spirit is God the Father is and then Jesus in His flesh and bone body------and then it need not be so if You are a Member? Got that about right?

What then about the converts who have yet to join your Church?

God the Father has to be there, along with Christ with the Holy Spirit when they receive the Power of your Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost? And the gift of the Holy Ghost is somehow different?
Again, if you believe in the Great Triune God then wherever one of them are, they are all there. That should not be a difficult idea to get your arms around.

If the Trinity is 1 God of 3 Persons, then if the Holy Spirit is with you, so is God the Father and Jesus. All 3 have to be there if they are 1 God in 3 persons.

You cannot say, I felt the Holy Spirit today. No, you felt the Triune God today, all 3 of them you felt. They cannot be separated, they are 1. Get that in your head.

OR if that does not fit every condition in the bible and in the real world, then think of the Godhead like we do, then all conditions fit. That is why I believe the way I do, because how I believe fits every description of God the Father and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit that you can bring to me in the bible.

Non-members enjoyed my discussion with them about the Godhead, and most of the time they agree with me.
 
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Peter1000

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The ambiguity of the term "person" has been addressed by Trinitarian scholar and Christian apologist Alister McGrath:

"The word 'person' has changed its meaning since the third century when it began to be used in connection with the 'threefoldness of God'. When we talk about God as a person, we naturally think of God as being one person. But theologians such as Tertullian, writing in the third century, used the word 'person' with a different meaning. The word 'person' originally derives from the Latin word persona, meaning an actor's face-mask—and, by extension, the role which he takes in a play. By stating that there were three persons but only one God, Tertullian was asserting that all three major roles in the great drama of human redemption are played by the one and the same God. The three great roles in this drama are all played by the same actor: God. Each of these roles may reveal God in a somewhat different way, but it is the same God in every case. So when we talk about God as one person, we mean one person in the modern sense of the word, and when we talk about God as three persons, we mean three persons in the ancient sense of the word. ... Confusing these two senses of the word 'person' inevitably leads to the idea that God is actually a committee.[17]"


You haven't proven this.


I answered this already. But you haven't answered my question: Which person is Jehovah in this verse?

Ps 110:1 Jehovah said to my lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
until I make your enemies
your footstool.”

Ps 110:4 Jehovah has sworn
and will not change,
“You are a priest forever
after the order of Melchizedek.”[/QUOTE]

The ambiguity of the term "person" has been addressed by Trinitarian scholar and Christian apologist Alister McGrath:

What Alister is describing is Sabellianism. One God wearing 3 different masks. One mask when God the Father is speaking. A different mask when Jesus/Jehovah is speaking. And finally a different mask when the Holy Spirit is speaking.

Another name for this description of God is "modalism". One God that has 3 modes, or masks, or 3 roles.

In 220ad Sabellius, who tried to convince the church that this is the true God, was excommunicated from the church and his teachings were banned.

You haven't proven this.
What's to prove. Jehovah was the God of the OT, right? Jehovah was incarnated into the body of Jesus of the NT, right?

Therefore Jehovah and Jesus are the same person.

The Trinity is made up of 3 distinct Persons. God the Father, God the Son (who has many other names, Jesus and Jehovah are 2 of them), and God the Holy Spirit.

I answered this already. But you haven't answered my question: Which person is Jehovah in this verse?

What version of the bible did you quote from for these verses?
 
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Andrewn

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What Alister is describing is Sabellianism. One God wearing 3 different masks. One mask when God the Father is speaking. A different mask when Jesus/Jehovah is speaking. And finally a different mask when the Holy Spirit is speaking. Another name for this description of God is "modalism". One God that has 3 modes, or masks, or 3 roles.
No, no, no. Sebellianism understands Jesus to be a manifestation of Jehovah, who is God the Father, in the flesh. God the Son did not exist before the incarnation except as the Logos of God the Father. It also believes that the Holy Spirit should not be understood as a separate entity but rather to describe God in action. In summary, this is what they believe:

Father: The title of God in parental relationship

Son of God: God incarnate in human flesh; "Son" refers to either the humanity and the deity of Jesus together, or to the humanity alone, but never to the deityalone.

Holy Spirit: The title of God in activity as Spirit

This is very very different from the Trinitarian view as expressed by McGrath.

What version of the bible did you quote from for these verses?
It doesn't matter what version I used bec all versions say the same thing. I only replaced the word "LORD" in all capitals with "Jehovah" as confirmed by Strong's number in KJV.

So, who is Jehovah in Psalm 110?
 
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From the Mormon Lesson Manual:
Jehovah
was the premortal name-title given to the Firstborn Son of God. He is now referred to as Jesus Christ. The meaning of the name Jehovah was explained by Elder Talmage:

Jehovah is the Anglicized rendering of the Hebrew, Yahveh or Jahveh, signifying the Self-existent One, or The Eternal. This name is generally rendered in our English version of the Old Testament as LORD printed in capitals. The Hebrew, Ehyeh, signifying I Am, is related in meaning and through derivation with the term Yahveh or Jehovah.” (Jesus the Christ, p. 36.)
Enrichment Section A: Who Is the God of the Old Testament.

Dear Gramps,
About two weeks ago I sent you a message concerning Zechariah 12:10. I received an answer from you with your arguments concerning this verse and some others concerning the use of various Bible translations. In my answer I put forward my arguments – and, I think, well-grounded ones – discussing this question. In my message I offered you a simple comparison of Psalm 110 in the King James Version and in the American Standard Version, accompanying it with a question: “Who is the Lord telling the Lord to sit at his right hand?” (see also Psalm 2) True, I myself answered it in my message. However, I would like to know your opinion and I have been waiting for your answer for over a week since...
In Psalms 110:1, who is the Lord telling the Lord to sit at His right hand?

If you read Gramps' reply, you will see that he never really answers the question, but goes into trying to prove that the KJV and other versions of the Bible are most likely mistranslated. So you have asked an excellent question.

One thing I've observed in LDS lesson manuals is that that they refrain from answering each Bible verse, but just skip over some of them.

:scratch:
 
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