When all does not mean all.

Robin Mauro · Feb 13, 2021

What we don't know for sure is what happens after that.
I mean, throw in the thousand years of peace when Christ will reign, etc. It gets pretty complicated. But, I would not encourage anyone to not accept Christ now. He is the way, the truth, the life, and he loves us; praise God! Thank-you God!

Magnanimity · Feb 13, 2021

Robin Mauro said:
What we don't know for sure is what happens after that.

It’s a great point, and I always opt for hope. In fact, we probably have an obligation to hope. One of my favorite lines from Pope Francis on this topic appears in his recent encyclical letter Fratelli Tutti:

“When the last day comes, and there is sufficient light to see things as they really are, we are going to find ourselves quite surprised.”

Robin Mauro · Feb 13, 2021

Magnanimity said:
It’s a great point, and I always opt for hope. In fact, we probably have an obligation to hope. One of my favorite lines from Pope Francis on this topic appears in his recent encyclical letter Fratelli Tutti:

“When the last day comes, and there is sufficient light to see things as they really are, we are going to find ourselves quite surprised.”

Lovely. And I love the one from the movie "Brother Son, Sister Moon" when the pope says to St. Francis
"In our preoccupation with original sin, we tend to forget original innocense."
It may seem somewhat off topic, but I think it shows that God's mind is so much greater than ours, and we need to remember that, and not just cling to our own understanding, which is so very limited.

Randy777 · Feb 13, 2021

Magnanimity said:
As I noted, St Augustine’s influence on the entire Western church’s theology has persisted through the centuries, whether or not we are aware of that influence. St Augustine himself said that “very many” of his contemporaries denied eternal-Hell. If anything, for the early church the clearer view that held wider support was for a finite Hell and for the entirety of humanity to eventually be reconciled to God.

What I believe is that there are very few and very poor reasons for believing that Hell is forever and inescapable.
I also believe, as I gave you many references above, the NT epistles lean strongly in the direction of universalism. So, as I’ve now said ad nauseam in this thread, this issue of eschatology is ambiguous in the NT, when taken as a whole and not just honing in on the verses that support your particular opinion.

The NT does not lean towards universalism. I see what you believe. I don't read in the NT what you believe. Perhaps you should consider Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus.

Clare73 · Feb 13, 2021

Randy777 said:
The NT does not lean towards universalism. I see what you believe. I don't read in the NT what you believe. Perhaps you should consider Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus.

Lot of human notions being passed off as God's mind going on here. . .

Randy777 · Feb 13, 2021

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

With light comes accountability to ALL.

Alter2Ego · Feb 14, 2021

Michael Collum said:
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

So all die in adam and so all will be made alive.

However, since - eternal torment -

It means some people don't die, since most people will not be made alive in Christ.

Comments?

Michael Collum:

Scripture makes it clear that many people will indeed die.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

Below is a fill-in-the-blank question.

QUESTION #1 TO MICHAEL COLLUM: According to Romans 6:23, "the wages of sin is ______________,"

Below is a request:

Please provide scripture that refers to LITERAL eternal torment.

Alter2Ego

Gregory Thompson · Feb 14, 2021

Alter2Ego said:
Michael Collum:

Scripture makes it clear that many people will indeed die.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

Below is a fill-in-the-blank question.

QUESTION #1 TO MICHAEL COLLUM: According to Romans 6:23, "the wages of sin is ______________,"

Below is a request:

Please provide scripture that refers to LITERAL eternal torment.

Alter2Ego

I don't really believe in Eternal Torment, Annihilationism, or Universal Reconciliation - I am convinced God will do more than we can imagine or think in this area. I will continue to believe God exists, and that He is the agape giving-giving love type of God.(and trinitarian in nature)

Generally, the area of interest is at the end of revelation when people are judged after the 1000 years. If you don't read that text literally, then there's not much to discuss except for passages in the gospel referring to the local garbage dump. .

Alter2Ego · Feb 14, 2021

Butterball1 said:
"Death" is contrasted to "resurrection".

Butterball1:

Death is not contrasted to resurrection. Death is contrasted to life--which is the opposite of death.

Butterball1 said:
As a CONSEQUENCE of Adam sinning (NOT because we inherited sin or a sin nature from Adam) we will all die physically, Hebrews 9:27. None of us are getting out of this alive, even Christ died physically. So ALL LITERALLY will die physically. On the other hand, as a CONSEQUENCE of Christ being resurrected from the dead ALL LITERALLY will come alive in the resurrection both those who done good and those who done evil, John 5:28-29. Some resurrected to everlasting punishment and the rest to everlasting life.

Butterball1:
We die as a result of inherited sin. That is what scripture says.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23 -- King James Bible)

Your above comment, that one's death it is "NOT because we inherited sin or a sin nature from Adam" is not in harmony with scripture.

Alter2Ego

Alter2Ego · Feb 14, 2021

Michael Collum said:
I don't really believe in Eternal Torment, Annihilationism, or Universal Reconciliation - I am convinced God will do more than we can imagine or think in this area. I will continue to believe God exists, and that He is the agape giving-giving love type of God.(and trinitarian in nature)

Michael Collum:

You are correct to not believe in Eternal Torment and Universal Reconciliation, since neither of those are supported by scripture. However, scripture confirms that Annihilation of the wicked is what Jehovah intends in the future.

No doubt you've read about how he annihilated the unrepentant sinners during Noah's day, when he deluged the earth. Notice what Jehovah told Noah regarding that event, quoted below:

"As for me, I am going to bring floodwaters upon the earth to destroy from under heavens all flesh that has the breath of life. Everything on the earth will perish." (Genesis 6:17)

And likewise, Almighty God Jehovah annihilated the unrepentant homosexuals and their enablers in the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"{24} Then Jehovah made it rain sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah--it came from Jehovah, from the heavens. {25} So he overthrew these cities, yes, the entire district, including all the inhabitants of the cities and the plants of the ground." (Genesis 19:24-25 -- New World Translation)

Alter2Ego

Gregory Thompson · Feb 14, 2021

Alter2Ego said:
Michael Collum:

You are correct to not believe in Eternal Torment and Universal Reconciliation, since neither of those are supported by scripture. However, scripture confirms that Annihilation of the wicked is what Jehovah intends in the future.

No doubt you've read about how he annihilated the unrepentant sinners during Noah's day, when he deluged the earth. Notice what Jehovah told Noah regarding that event, quoted below:

"As for me, I am going to bring floodwaters upon the earth to destroy from under heavens all flesh that has the breath of life. Everything on the earth will perish." (Genesis 6:17)

And likewise, Almighty God Jehovah annihilated the unrepentant homosexuals and their enablers in the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"{24} Then Jehovah made it rain sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah--it came from Jehovah, from the heavens. {25} So he overthrew these cities, yes, the entire district, including all the inhabitants of the cities and the plants of the ground." (Genesis 19:24-25 -- New World Translation)

Alter2Ego

Jehovah Witness eh?

fwGod · Feb 14, 2021

Michael Collum said:
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

So all die in adam and so all will be made alive.

However, since - eternal torment -

It means some people don't die, since most people will not be made alive in Christ.

Comments?

You mistake the word "die", presuming that it means "physical death" and so have arrived at the wrong conclusion by taking one verse and interpreting it without first looking at similar texts concerning the same topic to get the right understanding.

Romans 5:12 says "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned."
Genesis 2:17 says "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die."

God saying that Adam would die, wasn't talking about physical death because Adam physically lived on, well beyond that day. God was speaking of spiritual death which is the result of sin.. which is disobedience to God's spoken and known will.

Ephesians 2:1-2 says "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience."
The Amplified Bible and the Good News Translation says "spiritually dead". Ephes.2:1-2 says "In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins."

The apostle Paul was speaking of spiritual death concerning Adam and Eve which by procreation, was passed on that spiritual death to all mankind.

Then the apostle Paul was speaking of the remedy to be spiritual rebirth to eternal life in Christ. As Jesus said to Nicodemus "You must be born again." When that happens 2 Corinthians 5:17 says "If anyone be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away, all things are new and they are of God."
Galatians 2:20 says "I was crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that lives, but it is Christ living in me. The life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave of himself for me."

Ephesians 2:5 says "But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, has made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!"

Colossians 2:13 says "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

So it is also said in 1 Corinthians 15:22 "So that in Christ all are made spiritually alive."

Saint Steven · Feb 15, 2021

Michael Collum said:
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

So all die in adam and so all will be made alive.

However, since - eternal torment -

It means some people don't die, since most people will not be made alive in Christ.

Comments?

This seems to be a thinly veiled slap at Universal Restoration.

You have tried to make 1 Corinthians 15:22 a Damnationist verse.

The verse has two halves. The first half begins with "For as in", the second half begins with, "even so in". This means "in the same way". It is a comparative. In the same way ALL, even so ALL...

All means all.
Here's another scripture for comparison. More difficult to squirm your way out of this one. All people means all people. And how many were made sinners? (the many = all)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Saint Steven · Feb 15, 2021

Butterball1 said:
Well, we know it cannot be speaking about the spiritual state of man for that has the verse teaching Universalism.

Right, it can't mean what it plainly says, that would disagree with Damnationist doctrine. Horrors! (hold the fort)

Saint Steven · Feb 15, 2021

Magnanimity said:
All die because of Adam, and all are resurrected because of Christ. Nothing here is mentioned in the chapter about any humans being excluded because they don't believe (or for any other reason).

Well said. Thanks.

Saint Steven · Feb 15, 2021

aiki said:
... evidenced by the multiplication of views on the matter of hell. This is certainly a very post-modern view...

No. Not a post-modern view.
A view with roots in the early church. A majority view at that time. (especially in the east)

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Saint Steven · Feb 15, 2021

Michael Collum said:
It was a question illustrating how the doctrine of eternal torment contradicts this scripture.

So, the correct course of action when our man-made doctrines don't agree with scripture is to discount scripture? Wow.

Since the doctrine of eternal torment contradicts the scripture, maybe the doctrine of eternal torment is wrong. (instead of the scripture)

Saint Steven · Feb 15, 2021

Guojing said:
I always have this reflection on verses like this and Romans 5:12-19.

Why is it that mankind did not have to choose, they were automatically in Adam, and thus all die.

But when it comes to Christ, Adam's descendants must deliberately make a choice to accept Christ's death burial and resurrection, in order to be in Christ and alive.

Doesn't that make the final Adam's obedience at the cross, slightly less powerful than the first Adam's disobedience at the Garden?

Right. This scripture below makes the role of the two Adams more clear.
Note the word "resulted" (2x) in verse 18. And the word "made" (2x) in verse 19.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Clare73 · Feb 15, 2021

fwGod said:
You mistake the word "die", presuming that it means "physical death" and so have arrived at the wrong conclusion by taking one verse and interpreting it without first looking at similar texts concerning the same topic to get the right understanding.
Romans 5:12 says "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned."
Genesis 2:17 says "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die."

God saying that Adam would die, wasn't talking about physical death because Adam physically lived on, well beyond that day. God was speaking of spiritual death which is the result of sin, which is disobedience to God's spoken and known will.

God was speaking of both spiritual and physical death, the spiritual death being the cause of the phyical death.

The Hebrew of Ge 2:17 means, " Dying, you will die."
The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23). There would have been no physical death, had Adam not sinned, until another first sin occurred.
Their eventual physical death was proof of their earlier spiritual death (loss of eternal life in their spirits).

Ephesians 2:1-2 says "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience."
The Amplified Bible and the Good News Translation says "spiritually dead". Ephes.2:1-2 says "In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins."
The apostle Paul was speaking of spiritual death concerning Adam and Eve which by procreation, was passed on that spiritual death to all mankind.

Paul demonstrates in Ro 5:12-14 that
1) breaking the law is sin; where there is no law, there is no sin,
2) the wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23),
3) there was no law prior to Moses for mankind to break,
4) yet all mankind died anyway,
5) therefore, because physical death is caused by sin, all mankind prior to Moses were involved in sin,
6) the only sin in the world was the sin of Adam, so it was Adam's sin in which they were involved, and which caused their deaths,
7) Adam's sin is imputed (accounted, reckoned) to all those in Adam, just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to all those in Christ (1Co 15:22;
Ro 5:18-19).

Jesus is the second Adam (man). (1Co 15:45; Ro 5:14)
For as (those) in Adam all die, so (those) in Christ all will be made alive. (1Co 15:22)

Then the apostle Paul was speaking of the remedy to be spiritual rebirth to eternal life in Christ. As Jesus said to Nicodemus "You must be born again." When that happens 2 Corinthians 5:17 says "If anyone be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away, all things are new and they are of God."
Galatians 2:20 says "I was crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that lives, but it is Christ living in me. The life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave of himself for me."

Ephesians 2:5 says "But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, has made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!"

Colossians 2:13 says "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

So it is also said in 1 Corinthians 15:22 "So that in Christ all are made spiritually alive."

P.S.: Love your avatar.

fwGod · Feb 15, 2021

Clare73 said:
God was speaking of both spiritual and physical death, the spiritual death being the cause of the phyical death.

The Hebrew of Ge 2:17 means, " Dying, you will die."
The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23). There would have been no physical death, had Adam not sinned, until another first sin occurred.
Their eventual physical death was proof of their earlier spiritual death (loss of eternal life in their spirits).

Oh excuse me anyone.. for not making the content of my post clear enough that you didn't see that what this person has pointed out in her post is included in mine. I merely stressed the matter of there being a difference between a spiritual death and a physical death. Because the person I had responded to wasn't aware that there was such a thing as a spiritual death.

So I didn't stress that a spiritual death leads to a physical death. Which implies that the word 'die' in Genesis 2:17.. includes both kinds though it stressed the spiritual death regarding an immediate experience. Although one would think that my stating that Adam didn't physically die until well on.. would be words enough to realize that I didn't leave it out entirely.

I suppose that this person wanted to be sure that no one missed my minuscule inclusion of it. Because one would think that life tells everyone that physical death is obvious to everyone eventually. Which the person I had responded to knew of. So my thoughts were, why belabor the point?

So it turns out that this person bothered to belabor it anyway. I do hope that there would be someone who would appreciate her effort.

When all does not mean all.

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