What's your eschatology objective?

[Interplanner]

Tranquil,
relating Mt 24 and Luke-Acts and the revolt in 1st century Judea is far from boring. It's history at its best!

 

[Interplanner]

To Rat,
Yes, I would be very interested in why you think preterism means Dan 9 was about Antiochus Epiphanes. I'm always interested in people's reasons; not their snide dismissals.

 

[riverrat]

To Rat,
Yes, I would be very interested in why you think preterism means Dan 9 was about Antiochus Epiphanes. I'm always interested in people's reasons; not their snide dismissals.

ner, when did I say preterism means Dan 9 was about Antiochus Epiphanes?

 

[Interplanner]

I know its hard but try to make a conversation out of it...complete thoughts etc. So: are you saying you don't think Dan 9 is about that Antiochus, and why?

 

[Interplanner]

Who know, you might even get to 3 complete, reasoned sentences!

 

[Douggg]

Who know, you might even get to 3 complete, reasoned sentences!

"know" ? Maybe you meant "knows". I can relate.

 

[riverrat]

I know its hard but try to make a conversation out of it...complete thoughts etc. So: are you saying you don't think Dan 9 is about that Antiochus, and why?

ner, when did I say anything about Antiochus?

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Interplanner]

Rat, that's the point.
You don't say anything.
You don't say what you mean.
You don't say what you mean by preterism.
You don't say what you don't mean by preterism.
You don't say what you mean by partial preterism.
You don't say what you don't mean by partial preterism.

It is much easier for me to pull teeth out of people than communicate with you. And I see I'm not alone.

Do your homework and write out 2-3 lines about each of the 4 questions.

You think something is "ugly" and won't say what it is. Shut up or put up (write it out).


(doug, thanks for catching the typo)

 

[Douggg]

(doug, thanks for catching the typo)

Inter, the funny for me was the typo was in that particular sentence. Who know, you might even get to 3 complete, reasoned sentences!

Nothing personal, okay?

 

[riverrat]

Rat, that's the point.
You don't say anything.
You don't say what you mean.
You don't say what you mean by preterism.
You don't say what you don't mean by preterism.
You don't say what you mean by partial preterism.
You don't say what you don't mean by partial preterism.

It is much easier for me to pull teeth out of people than communicate with you. And I see I'm not alone.

Do your homework and write out 2-3 lines about each of the 4 questions.

You think something is "ugly" and won't say what it is. Shut up or put up (write it out).


(doug, thanks for catching the typo)

ner, It seems that you are very confused by what I say. I will try to be clearer in the future. Do you not really know the definition of preterism after 40 yrs of study. You are the one that needs to do homework.
Am I required to answer your questions?
I clearly said what was ugly. It is preterism that is ugly.

 

[Codger]

To discover the paradigm necessary to interpret the book of Revelation to reveal the message that John was communicating to the Seven Churches of the Roman Province of Asia in the first century.​

Unfortunately it seems today that so many adopt the Paradigm of a certain school of thought. The result is that these who subscribe to these various schools of thought never seem to ever really study and meditate on this book for themselves. They end up defending the school position at any cost. I've seen this for over 20 years on the internet.
　
You can easily see this because of all of the name dropping of the "Scholars" used here. Don't be too impressed with those who have "Credentials" and "Doctorates" in theology. The theologians of Jesus'　day looked down on ignorant fishermen like Peter - not knowing the accuracy of his knowledge and revelation. Education and the study of the work of others is not the answer. You need to study it for yourself. The Holy Spirit cannot guide anyone who already knows the answers. You have　 to abandon or set aside all that you believe if you want to here his voice.
　
Opinions (usually tenants from a school of thought) are the greatest adversary of the truth. You have to ask the questions yourself and look for the answer. And I get so weary of the intimidations, insults, and 　preclusions on these boards - "If you read this carefully" (You will agree with my school of thought.) "The Bible clearly states." "Your school of thought is simply the doctrines of men." "The Lord showed me." And many more. I wish we could dispense with all of this.
　
If my goal here is to impress everyone with my knowledge and cleverness; and if my objective is to force everything into the future or some particular school of thought then I have motive problems and I will never ever know the simple truths of John's message. When I came to this realization years ago I remember what a big letdown it was from futurism – it was very anticlimactic. Is that all it means? You mean it is in the past. Very disappointing.

　​

Here is the paradigm that I am presently using. I say presently because it updates frequently.
　A. God is love - everything He says is simple and practical - not complicated. He does not talk down to anyone - does not talk over their heads. The book of Revelation was written to the uneducated, illiterate, Christians of the seven Churches of Revelation -　 most all of which were Gentiles and even slaves. They had no Bibles and most of them were not familiar with the symbols that John used in the Revelation about the history and protocol of the Jews before the destruction of Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple - but the Jewish leaders did. For example chapter 8 uses the elements of the incense ceremony to convey his message. Only they His people existed at that point in time and He was not concerned about anyone of the future – just them. It was their day.
　
As soon as you ignore this principle and take the book out of their hands then you will never know the simple messages of John's book - never. About three years after the book was published to the Seven Churches tradition held that John returned to Ephesus after the second persecution under Domitian ended. For a few years John answered any questions that his readers had about his book. So then they knew with 100% accuracy what his simple message was about.
　
B. God never robs us of our future – He always wants us to live in the now – today. He doesn't make long term prophesies under the New Covenant that are dated – never. When He gives a block of prophesy to a people it always appears to be imminent or just in front of us. Jesus gave Matt 24 to His followers but never dated anything. Looking forward they expected it all to happen in the near future or "Soon."
　
Today looking backwards we know His prophesies took 40 years to come to pass. No it is not for us to know the times and seasons. God will never reveal the time of the Second Coming. God always wants to keep us living in the now and also living in sort of a gray area where we believe that his return is close at hand. I cringe when I hear prophetic people prophesy about events that will happen 50 years from now. It is not of God. Why would I look for His return if I know it is at least 50 years away? I wouldn't – would you?
　
This principle has been in effect for 2,000 years now. All through history people have rightly believed that the return of Jesus was imminent. The belief in his imminent return is a motivation to maintain our relationship with him, so this idea has a practical element to it – it keeps our relationship fresh and real. The longest projection of his coming generally seems to be three and a half years. This is a symbol of a time of persecution – Nero, Dominion, Fall of Jerusalem. This is a symbolic estimate. In order to understand this book you have to learn to think simple, which has been hard for me to do. I think that the more humility (everyone has some measure) one has the more clearly they can see the word of God. And very few of us has made the bell at the top ring on this.
　
C. The book is symbolic and not literal. If you try to interpret it literally you will never know the message of John. Literalism I find is the door to speculation and fantasy; and these views are assumptive, speculative and unrealistic. They also often require a miracle to happen to bring it to pass.

One example will do here. John is warning the first century Christians of the coming of the second persecution of Rome under the emperor Dominion. Durant said that Dominion started killing Christians in 93AD. This was what was to soon take place. The book was written to those first century Christians and they comprehended its message. What they couldn’t see was the fact that about eight more cycles of persecution was going to happen before Revelation finally came to a close in the 5th century.​

The obvious exception was the Second Coming which was a part of Matt 24. Jesus said His coming was contingent upon the Fathers final say. We know it was delayed – for our benefit. Had it not been delayed we would not be here now. The delayed second coming was added to the Eschatology of John in his Revelation. It again was delayed – and still is to this very day. ​

Revelation chapter 16 (and 15) is all about the seven last plagues or bowls of wrath. So what is the last plague? After the last or 7th plague there is no more. It is the end of the book of Revelation. The Eschatology of Jesus took 40 years to come to pass. The eschatology of John took over 300 years to come to pass.

Revelation 16:16-21 (NIV2011)
16 　Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

Megiddo was the well known place of the great battles of Israel – it was a place of confrontation.


17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
　
What is done? The Judgment of the city of Rome. God promised a violent end to the city of Rome for example: chapter 18…

Revelation 18:21-24 (NIV2011)
21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.
22 　The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. No worker of any trade will ever be found in you again. The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again.
23 　The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world’s important people. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24 　In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth." ​

　

　
Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.

This is not a literal earthquake but is symbolic of a great and massive "shaking" of the whole of Europe. Earthquakes last for minutes and are geographically contained. This shaking affected Europe and lasted for many decades. It is about the slow collapse of the power of Rome and the endless marauding barbarian nomadic tribes who plundered the towns and cities. The cities fell and these tribes were always on the move displacing one another. This is all this means – it was a prophesy to those who lived under the occupation of the Beast that was Rome.

The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

The great city in Revelation is always Rome and when was it divided into three parts – not literally but it is symbolizing the power of Rome. This historically happened in 395AD. Because of the danger of the marauding tribes the capital of the western Roman Empire was moved to Milan. It was later moved to Ravenna because of the threat of the Visigoth Alaric. The capital of the Eastern roman empire was moved to Constantinople. The Senate remained in Rome. And so the power of Rome was split into three because of the earthquake or shaking of the nations.

Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.

Very simple. What are mountains? What are islands? They are places of refuge and safety - from these ruthless marauding tribes. This verse is simply saying that there will be no place of escape or refuge from the danger and violence of these barbarians.

21 　From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

Again the literalists require a miracle for this to be true. God gives us outrageous symbols just to show us that they are symbols and not literal. It is not possible for winds to carry aloft this size of a hailstone. Just like it is not possible for stars to fall to the earth. These are symbols. Rain is a blessing and frozen rain is destructive – again it is simple.

In 410AD Alaric sacked the city of Rome for only three days and the city never recovered. By about 476 the last Roman Emperor was disposed. The old Roman mentality of conquest and cruel and oppressive domination had ceased to exist. The Eastern empire was changed from the inside out. The western segment was destroyed from without by Alaric. The population of the city dropped precipitously after that and never recovered.​

Revelation says that the beast and the false prophet were captured and cast into the lake of Fire. The beast is a Bible symbol of human government; and in Revelation it is symbolic of the government of Rome. It was the beast of Rome and the false prophet (who was the organization called the Concilia) that was Judged by God and cast into eternal punishment. The concilia was the powerful arm of the Beast that enforced emperor worship on the Christians.　

Larry

　
　​

 

[Interplanner]

Rat ,
what is the last thing you learned theologically here at CF? ie, why are you here? All I know is that you are here to insult. I guess that's a Christian virtue you practice, but I don't notice others doing it.

Some people think the AofD was Antiochus in 165 BC. Some think it was John of Gischala's acts of terror in 68 AD. Can you answer whether you think preterism means either of those?

 

[ebedmelech]

My eschatology objective, is to understand God's eschatology objective, and do it properly.

Now...back to working on that...

 

[riverrat]

Rat ,
what is the last thing you learned theologically here at CF? ie, why are you here? All I know is that you are here to insult. I guess that's a Christian virtue you practice, but I don't notice others doing it.

Some people think the AofD was Antiochus in 165 BC. Some think it was John of Gischala's acts of terror in 68 AD. Can you answer whether you think preterism means either of those?

Have you done your homework and learned the definition of preterism?
I am here to learn and I do learn a lot just not from you.
Insult? You are the name caller here, not me.
Why should I be interested in Antiochus or John of Gischela?

 

[coraline]

I clearly said what was ugly. It is preterism that is ugly.

For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. (Matt.12)

 

[Biblewriter]

So long as God's decree is in mind. That term 'kat' epitagmen' is a "royal decree" or "ordinance." We must put our thoughts aside and make sure the decree is going forward in God's mission. Futurism constantly appeals to and ingratiates the human mind--or "minds" since there are so many "experts" so quickly (some of them have been Christians for a whopping 1 year!). That's like Jn 5:39.

It is a simple and undeniable historical fact, that throughout the last 200 years futurists in general and Dispensationalists in particular have systematically been the most active evangelists in the world.

So let's drop this holier-than-thou pretension that futurists are neglecting their divine mission in concentrating on eschatology.

 

[Bible2]

Codger said in post 32:

The book is symbolic and not literal.

Actually, Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

Codger said in post 32:

It is not possible for winds to carry aloft this size of a hailstone.

God is all-powerful (Jeremiah 32:17). So he could easily generate powerful-enough updrafts, or send forth angels, to keep hundred-pound hailstones aloft, before he casts them down upon the world (Revelation 16:21).

I.e., Revelation 16:21 refers to hundred-pound hailstones which will be literal hailstones, just as the plagues of hailstones from God in Exodus 9:25 and Joshua 10:11 were literal hailstones. Also, the hundred-pound hailstones in Revelation 16:21 will plague mankind in general, and only after the never-fulfilled first six vials have all been fulfilled in our future. Also at the seventh vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20). And Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed at the time of the seventh vial (Revelation 16:19). None of these things has happened yet. So the seventh vial hasn't happened yet.

Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem, to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

Codger said in post 32:

Just like it is not possible for stars to fall to the earth.

Matthew 24:29 can refer to literal clouds blocking the literal light from the literal sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars", i.e. meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, i.e. ones which will pass through the clouds and will be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can simply refer to the first heaven, i.e. the sky/atmosphere. And "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal fallen-angelic "powers" that currently rule the world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this won't occur until immediately after the never-fulfilled tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the never-fulfilled Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

Codger said in post 32:

In 410AD Alaric sacked the city of Rome for only three days and the city never recovered.

Note that the city of Rome did recover, just as it remains a huge, thriving city still today. On the other hand, when the great city in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21 (i.e. the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon) is destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3).

 

[Bible2]

Codger said in post 32:

The beast is a Bible symbol of human government; and in Revelation it is symbolic of the government of Rome.

The 7 heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

Codger said in post 32:

The beast is a Bible symbol of human government; and in Revelation it is symbolic of the government of Rome.

"Beasts" can refer figuratively to men (Titus 1:12). Revelation uses a Greek masculine-pronoun "him" to refer to its beast (Revelation 13:8) when it's referring to the individual "man" (Revelation 13:18) aspect of its beast, commonly called the Antichrist, the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Satanic miracles (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), whereas at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).

A 2nd aspect of Revelation's beast is that it's a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11) who's now literally in the bottomless pit and will ascend from it during the future tribulation to spiritually empower the empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 17:8-11), empire being a 3rd aspect of the beast, represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan had assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan had assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the bottomless pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18).

The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of 4 other powerful fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b), who could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. When these 4 fallen angels are released at one point during the future tribulation, they will cause an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings to kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done in order to make mankind completely desperate before its total takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).

Codger said in post 32:

It was the beast of Rome and the false prophet (who was the organization called the Concilia) that was Judged by God and cast into eternal punishment.

The beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus. (But he won't say that he's Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 33:

Some people think the AofD was Antiochus in 165 BC.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").