• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

what's wrong with Calvinism?

Esdra

Senior Contributor
Sep 18, 2011
6,444
1,344
Tyrol, Austria
✟36,767.00
Country
Austria
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Hi

I'm wondering why quite a lot of non-reformed believers have such a problem with Calvinism or reformed theology?

Why is that?
Is it because of the believe in predestination?
As far as I understood that concept it "only" means that not all are going to be saved but that that god has chosen/predestined.
What's wrong with that believe? I've heard many non-reformed Christians say that one can only come to God if he draws you or calls you to him. Isn't that the same concept?

Esdra
 

The Conductor

Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι
Mar 27, 2013
263
40
Canada
Visit site
✟15,721.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I find there to be three kinds of folks who don't like Calvinism:

The kind that haven't seen it in the Bible and think that we're going too far.

The kind that have been whipped into a frenzy by a pastor who has no idea what he's talking about.

The kind who have been hurt by someone who calls themselves a Calvinist, possibly someone in 'the cage stage', possibly someone who hasn't been taught properly.
 
Upvote 0

Pteriax

Someone to hate
Jul 13, 2013
1,157
100
Earth
✟24,343.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There is a false belief that if predestination is true that man has no free will, and that the unsaved had no chance to be saved. They forget that "Whom He foreknew He predestinated..." People don't want to believe in Biblical election because they want to have control over their life and where they go when they die. People don't want to believe in total depravity because they don't like the idea that they are not 'basically good'. People don't want to believe that Jesus only died for those whom He knew would be saved because of the free will issue again. People don't want to believe in eternal salvation because they want to limit God when He is truly unlimited. Calvinism gets a bad rap with Christians and non-Christians, in my experience, because of the sinful nature of man in wanting to be in control and wanting to believe in their own goodness, and we believe quite the opposite.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Esdra
Upvote 0

Iosias

Senior Contributor
Jul 18, 2004
8,171
227
✟9,648.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
I've heard many non-reformed Christians say that one can only come to God if he draws you or calls you to him. Isn't that the same concept?

Nope, since Calvinism teaches that one cannot resist God's drawing...hence 'irresistible grace'.
 
Upvote 0

Esdra

Senior Contributor
Sep 18, 2011
6,444
1,344
Tyrol, Austria
✟36,767.00
Country
Austria
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
There is a false belief that if predestination is true that man has no free will, and that the unsaved had no chance to be saved. They forget that "Whom He foreknew He predestinated..." People don't want to believe in Biblical election because they want to have control over their life and where they go when they die. People don't want to believe in total depravity because they don't like the idea that they are not 'basically good'. People don't want to believe that Jesus only died for those whom He knew would be saved because of the free will issue again. People don't want to believe in eternal salvation because they want to limit God when He is truly unlimited. Calvinism gets a bad rap with Christians and non-Christians, in my experience, because of the sinful nature of man in wanting to be in control and wanting to believe in their own goodness, and we believe quite the opposite.

So Calvinism teaches that Jesus only died for those, he know they would be saved?
The other things, I've already read about in the Heidelberg Catechism and the Second Helvetic Confession. I don't really have an issue with that.

But I can see now, why some Christians might have. Thanks for you answer.
And for the others who answered. :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Esdra

Senior Contributor
Sep 18, 2011
6,444
1,344
Tyrol, Austria
✟36,767.00
Country
Austria
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Nope, since Calvinism teaches that one cannot resist God's drawing...hence 'irresistible grace'.

Hm, I still think that that's the same somehow...
If they're drawn to god, they are predestinated. Or am I thinking too simply here?
I mean, there are certainly also converts to Calvinism (from Atheism or so).
They are predestinated then, or drawn to Christianity (Calvinism) by god.
 
Upvote 0

Esdra

Senior Contributor
Sep 18, 2011
6,444
1,344
Tyrol, Austria
✟36,767.00
Country
Austria
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I've read the Heidelberg Catechism as well as the 2nd Helvetic confession more then once, and I could agree with almost everything (when I still was a Baptist; In the meantime as a Catholic things like seeing the Last Supper only symbolic, is the point where it starts to get difficult for me.)
Probably I've even been in a Reformed Baptist Church. (I don't know, as the Church I used to go to, had an entirely different name: Free Evangelical Church. - But as far as I know, they aren't the same what you in the US understand under Free Evangelical Churches.)
 
Upvote 0

Esdra

Senior Contributor
Sep 18, 2011
6,444
1,344
Tyrol, Austria
✟36,767.00
Country
Austria
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I find there to be three kinds of folks who don't like Calvinism:

The kind that haven't seen it in the Bible and think that we're going too far.

The kind that have been whipped into a frenzy by a pastor who has no idea what he's talking about.

The kind who have been hurt by someone who calls themselves a Calvinist, possibly someone in 'the cage stage', possibly someone who hasn't been taught properly.

Well, I think you can say the last two points about every Church. I guess people who have issues with the Catholic Church also are either whipped into a frenzy by a pastor, or were hurt.
 
Upvote 0

Esdra

Senior Contributor
Sep 18, 2011
6,444
1,344
Tyrol, Austria
✟36,767.00
Country
Austria
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Where I live here in the biblebelt, most folks would call Arminians Calvinist. Anything less than mans sovereignty over God is frowned upon down here. A sovereign God presents a lot of problems to the old Adam.

Calvinists as Armenians? Weren't Armenians an unorthdox Cult in the Ancient World?
I've often heard that JWs are considered Armenians.
 
Upvote 0

RINO 72

Newbie
Jan 15, 2011
257
27
✟15,540.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Calvinists as Armenians? Weren't Armenians an unorthdox Cult in the Ancient World?
I've often heard that JWs are considered Armenians.

Arminians have for the most part believed in prevenient grace which you can understand the differences here. A Response to the Arminian Doctrine of Prevenient Grace

It seems to me ( maybe just me) that most anti reformed folks would scoff at any less than totally unfettered free will. Rather this is pelagianism or semi pelagianism is debatable but most would not affirm prevenient grace either.
 
Upvote 0

Pteriax

Someone to hate
Jul 13, 2013
1,157
100
Earth
✟24,343.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I guess people who have issues with the Catholic Church also are either whipped into a frenzy by a pastor, or were hurt.

I have issues with the RCC because I believe the Bible as it was written and as far as I can see they feel like they can add to it at will. Not hurt, no anti-RCC sermons at church. I just love the Truth.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟122,193.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Calvinists as Armenians? Weren't Armenians an unorthdox Cult in the Ancient World?

That is a good question. As far as I know, the Arminian debate goes back to St. Augustine and his responses to Pelagius and the semi-pelagians.

Here's a helpful quote from Louis Berkhof's Systematic Theology:

"Predestination does not form an important subject of discussion in history until the time of Augustine. Earlier Church Fathers allude to it, but do not as yet seem to have a very clear conception of it. On the whole they regard it as the prescience of God with reference to human deeds, on the basis of which He determines their future destiny. Hence it was possible for Pelagius to appeal to some of those early Fathers. “According to Pelagius,” says Wiggers, “foreordination to salvation or to damnation, is founded on prescience. Consequently he did not admit an ‘absolute predestination,’ but in every respect a ‘conditional predestination’.”[Augustinism and Pelagianism, p. 252.] At first, Augustine himself was inclined to this view, but deeper reflection on the sovereign character of the good pleasure of God led him to see that predestination was in no way dependent on God’s foreknowledge of human actions, but was rather the basis of the divine foreknowledge. His representation of reprobation is not as unambiguous as it might be. Some of his statements are to the effect that in predestination God foreknows what He will Himself do, while He is also able to foreknow what He will not do, as all sins; and speak of the elect as subjects of predestination, and of the reprobate as subjects of the divine foreknowledge.[Cf. Wiggers, ibid., p. 239; Dijk. Om’t Eeuwig Welbehagen, pp. 39f.; Polman, De Praedestinatieleer van Augustinus, Thomas van Aquino, en Calvijn, pp. 149ff.] In other passages, however, he also speaks of the reprobate as subjects of predestination, so that there can be no doubt about it that he taught a double predestination. However, he recognized their difference, consisting in this that God did not predestinate unto damnation and the means unto it in the same way as He did to salvation, and that predestination unto life is purely sovereign, while predestination unto eternal death is also judicial and takes account of man’s sin.[Cf. Dyk, ibid., p. 40; Polman, ibid., p. 158.]

Augustine’s view found a great deal of opposition, particularly in France, where the semi-Pelagians, while admitting the need of divine grace unto salvation, reasserted the doctrine of a predestination based on foreknowledge. And they who took up the defense of Augustine felt constrained to yield on some important points. They failed to do justice to the doctrine of a double predestination. Only Gottschalk and a few of his friends maintained this, but his voice was soon silenced, and Semi-Pelagianism gained the upper hand at least among the leaders of the Church. Toward the end of the Middle Ages it became quite apparent that the Roman Catholic Church would allow a great deal of latitude in the doctrine of predestination. As long as its teachers maintained that God willed the salvation of all men, and not merely of the elect, they could with Thomas Aquinas move in the direction of Augustinianism in the doctrine of predestination, or with Molina follow the course of Semi-Pelagianism, as they thought best. This means that even in the case of those who, like Thomas Aquinas, believed in an absolute and double predestination, this doctrine could not be carried through consistently, and could not be made determinative of the rest of their theology."

I find it ironic that a great deal of the semi-Pelagian opposition in Augustine's time came from France.

In the ancient world, what is called Arminianism today, was declared heresy, but it crept back into the Church, and today is associated with the heretical Calvinist "James Arminius" who taught his brand of "Arminianism" privately to students. For reason unknown to me, his Calvinism was shaken to the core from a debate over predestination.

I've often heard that JWs are considered Armenians.

I cannot say with certainty because counter cult apologetics is not my cup o tea, but I suspect most cults incorporate forms of Arminianism into their interpretation and expositions.
 
Upvote 0

frumanchu

God's justice does not demand second chances
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2003
6,719
469
48
Ohio
✟85,280.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Honestly, most of the objections I come across can be traced back to Western culture, particularly American culture. Individual liberty is so thoroughly ingrained in our culture that the notion of unconditional election is insurmountable for many.

On top of that, the gradual rejection of original sin and man's depravity in exchange for this notion that man is fundamentally good has left them with an easy way to get out from under the Biblical reality of the situation man is in before a holy God. I would say outright Pelagianism has made quite the comeback in the last hundred years.

Then of course there is the general anti-intellectualism pervasive in the West that dismisses or outright rejects the history and positions of the church before, during and since the Cross.

That's been my experience so far.
 
Upvote 0

DanielRB

Slave of Allah
Jul 16, 2004
1,958
137
New Mexico
✟26,622.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Please note, Esdra, that Armenians are not the same as Arminians (note the "E" and "I"). Armenians are from the nation of Armenia (like the ethnic heritage of the Kardashians). There is also an Armenian Church, and I believe they are not considered heretical by most, just schismatic by Catholics.

Arminians are named after Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who disagreed with Calvin's position. Most Arminians I know I wouldn't call "heretics", but I do believe they do not understand the gospel fully. Some undoubtably are heretics, when they explicitly render a formula that essentially says that we are saved in part by our works. That is the Galatian heresy, as old as the first century.
 
Upvote 0

Esdra

Senior Contributor
Sep 18, 2011
6,444
1,344
Tyrol, Austria
✟36,767.00
Country
Austria
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Please note, Esdra, that Armenians are not the same as Arminians (note the "E" and "I"). Armenians are from the nation of Armenia (like the ethnic heritage of the Kardashians). There is also an Armenian Church, and I believe they are not considered heretical by most, just schismatic by Catholics.

Arminians are named after Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who disagreed with Calvin's position. Most Arminians I know I wouldn't call "heretics", but I do believe they do not understand the gospel fully. Some undoubtably are heretics, when they explicitly render a formula that essentially says that we are saved in part by our works. That is the Galatian heresy, as old as the first century.

Ah now I've got it!
I didn't know about arminians, nor about Jacob arminius.

I guess I've quite mixed up arians, armenians and arminians (though the latter 2 are the smartphone's dictionary's fault. It doesn't know the word arminian ;))
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

General Mung Beans

Resident Conservative Christian
Aug 25, 2009
557
15
28
Anaheim, CA
✟15,996.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I think partially the problem some people (especially secular, liberal types) is due to the view of all Calvinists as Puritans and defining Puritanism as (in the words of HL Mencken): "The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy" rather than as a theological movement dedicated to reforming the Church of England.
 
Upvote 0