What's the right way to say "whatever the beginning *was*, it wasn't a pretext for isolated change"?

Gottservant

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Hi there,

So I am standing out on my own, at this point - I'm not saying "look at the Bible", I'm not saying "look at anything" - I just want to understand this fundamental point: whatever the beginning was, it was not a pretext for isolated change?

The point is that once people typically have a concept of the beginning, they then start to say "the beginning was this, that means I must do x". When the beginning, has nothing to do with "x". God does not create, lots of little x's to choose from. The result of Creation (by which I mean the instantiation of everything at once, that it may either begin or have a beginning) is holistic, it does not immediately have a trained nature, it is not "there for the taking". Laying hold of a particular beginning, does not institute a particular choice.

This is important, because when we do meditation, we are not trying to return to a point when our decision making was easy and light, rather, we are trying to put to death anything that was in objection to us: simply being what we were. If we come away from meditation saying "at last 'I' understand" we have forgotten, that the disciplined mind does not need to "have understood" its own beginning, but rather that logically no decision is required. No decision, no understanding.

So it is, that all cultures that try to grasp the beginning, are looking at it, as if it is some kind of fruit, when in fact, it is merely the stem. As the Bible says "the axe is already laid, at the foot of the tree" (from memory) in other words, the axe can bring all fruit to the ground at once, but only because it is aimed at what feeds the fruit, universally. This is the strength of patience, not that your life is sold in pursuit of a science, with a particular "fruit", but that you understand that all fruit has the weakness that it must be distinguished from the ground, before it can be called "fruit".

So going back to the beginning, the question must naturally be "why do we pursue the stem, when if we wait, we can see the fruit come to the ground, in season?" Does not the plant, know the season? And knowing the season, does it not produce the fruit? The point is: the kind of beginning we pursue, determines what we shall eat. It does not mean fruit will fall from another tree! The science of "time" does not create "space", the science of "space" does not create "meaning", the science of "meaning" does not create "difference". All these things are confusions of turning to the one tree, as if it will produce "all" fruit.

There is more that I could say, but I want a simple understanding of this. The wait we do at the beginning of our meditation, is less than the wait at its end. We must be mindful of this. Calculating that we will be able to do something about the fruit of our endeavour in time, when we do nothing but reinvent our reasons for being there, is a distraction to the purity and simplicity with which we conduct our patience before God - for who can hold us to account for our patience, than One who created "patience"? And why would we credit it to ourselves, if we wanted to truly share in His Glory?

Learn from this, consider this - it is the reason Man shares stories, and also how they undo him.
 

Mark Quayle

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Hi there,

So I am standing out on my own, at this point - I'm not saying "look at the Bible", I'm not saying "look at anything" - I just want to understand this fundamental point: whatever the beginning was, it was not a pretext for isolated change?

The point is that once people typically have a concept of the beginning, they then start to say "the beginning was this, that means I must do x". When the beginning, has nothing to do with "x". God does not create, lots of little x's to choose from. The result of Creation (by which I mean the instantiation of everything at once, that it may either begin or have a beginning) is holistic, it does not immediately have a trained nature, it is not "there for the taking". Laying hold of a particular beginning, does not institute a particular choice.

This is important, because when we do meditation, we are not trying to return to a point when our decision making was easy and light, rather, we are trying to put to death anything that was in objection to us: simply being what we were. If we come away from meditation saying "at last 'I' understand" we have forgotten, that the disciplined mind does not need to "have understood" its own beginning, but rather that logically no decision is required. No decision, no understanding.

So it is, that all cultures that try to grasp the beginning, are looking at it, as if it is some kind of fruit, when in fact, it is merely the stem. As the Bible says "the axe is already laid, at the foot of the tree" (from memory) in other words, the axe can bring all fruit to the ground at once, but only because it is aimed at what feeds the fruit, universally. This is the strength of patience, not that your life is sold in pursuit of a science, with a particular "fruit", but that you understand that all fruit has the weakness that it must be distinguished from the ground, before it can be called "fruit".

So going back to the beginning, the question must naturally be "why do we pursue the stem, when if we wait, we can see the fruit come to the ground, in season?" Does not the plant, know the season? And knowing the season, does it not produce the fruit? The point is: the kind of beginning we pursue, determines what we shall eat. It does not mean fruit will fall from another tree! The science of "time" does not create "space", the science of "space" does not create "meaning", the science of "meaning" does not create "difference". All these things are confusions of turning to the one tree, as if it will produce "all" fruit.

There is more that I could say, but I want a simple understanding of this. The wait we do at the beginning of our meditation, is less than the wait at its end. We must be mindful of this. Calculating that we will be able to do something about the fruit of our endeavour in time, when we do nothing but reinvent our reasons for being there, is a distraction to the purity and simplicity with which we conduct our patience before God - for who can hold us to account for our patience, than One who created "patience"? And why would we credit it to ourselves, if we wanted to truly share in His Glory?

Learn from this, consider this - it is the reason Man shares stories, and also how they undo him.
Several very interesting thoughts, there.

One thing comes to me: that like modern cosmology seems to do, you seem to think more depends on our view of things than is warranted. (Lol, maybe that is a complement —don't take this as an attack. I'm just trying to put down thoughts that you have woken up in me.)

After having read the whole thing, I'm not sure what you mean by your first paragraph, but will assume you are saying that the effects of cause are not determined. I'm hoping all you mean is that the nature of the effect(s) is unknown by us —not that the nature of the cause is not the determiner of the nature of the effects.

Our whole universe, as it is now, did not randomly result from homogenous cause. Even that is self-contradictory to say, not just because true randomness is impossible, but because randomness is used as a cause in that consideration. Only first cause can be absolutely spontaneous. (I use the terms, 'true' and 'absolutely', to mitigate the reader's tendency to consider randomness and spontaneity to be capable of 'somewhat'. They actually either are, or are not —there is no 'somewhat' concerning them).

More in later responses, when I find the time, but thanks for providing this fertile thinking ground.
 
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Gottservant

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I think what I am coming to the realisation of, is that God first "creates" that He may later "redeem".

Somehow the Son of God keeps what is created, until God can redeem it.

There is no sense in which God "gives a choice" to that which He has created, but in redeeming a creature - He transposes the choice that could not be, to the choice that could (be).
 
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Tolworth John

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the reason Man shares stories, and also how they undo him.

where you are in great error is that Genesis is not a collection of myths and fairy tales, but an account from God of how he created everything.

Evolution is mans tale of how things began without God.
 
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This is important, because when we do meditation, we are not trying to return to a point when our decision making was easy and light, rather, we are trying to put to death anything that was in objection to us: simply being what we were. If we come away from meditation saying "at last 'I' understand" we have forgotten, that the disciplined mind does not need to "have understood" its own beginning, but rather that logically no decision is required. No decision, no understanding.

I find this intriguing. I meditate by filling my mind with memorized bible verses and concepts of the eternal God almighty. I force my mind to focus strictly on the things of God. after a period of time - I'm not really sure how long, perhaps 10 minutes, perhaps 20 - my thoughts just lock on and at times I can spend 3 hours in meditation. However the elapse of time seems much shorter. I wish I would spend more time in meditation because I find that my interest in the things of God come much more easily and frequently when I'm away from meditation, since I've been practicing meditating. I hope this makes sense.
 
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Tolworth John

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I know...it's one of those things that's written into Creation itSelf, which is nakedly authentic.

And that makes what you are saying nonsense.

Creation as found in the Bible is a six day process. There are no millions of years of dead and suffering.

God created a perfect world part of the universe in six periods of 24 hours.

To believe in evolution one has to term the meaning of words upside down and inside out.
There is no justification in the Bible for believing in evolution.
 
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Ken-1122

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Hi there,

So I am standing out on my own, at this point - I'm not saying "look at the Bible", I'm not saying "look at anything" - I just want to understand this fundamental point: whatever the beginning was, it was not a pretext for isolated change?

The point is that once people typically have a concept of the beginning, they then start to say "the beginning was this, that means I must do x". When the beginning, has nothing to do with "x". God does not create, lots of little x's to choose from. The result of Creation (by which I mean the instantiation of everything at once, that it may either begin or have a beginning) is holistic, it does not immediately have a trained nature, it is not "there for the taking". Laying hold of a particular beginning, does not institute a particular choice.

This is important, because when we do meditation, we are not trying to return to a point when our decision making was easy and light, rather, we are trying to put to death anything that was in objection to us: simply being what we were. If we come away from meditation saying "at last 'I' understand" we have forgotten, that the disciplined mind does not need to "have understood" its own beginning, but rather that logically no decision is required. No decision, no understanding.

So it is, that all cultures that try to grasp the beginning, are looking at it, as if it is some kind of fruit, when in fact, it is merely the stem. As the Bible says "the axe is already laid, at the foot of the tree" (from memory) in other words, the axe can bring all fruit to the ground at once, but only because it is aimed at what feeds the fruit, universally. This is the strength of patience, not that your life is sold in pursuit of a science, with a particular "fruit", but that you understand that all fruit has the weakness that it must be distinguished from the ground, before it can be called "fruit".

So going back to the beginning, the question must naturally be "why do we pursue the stem, when if we wait, we can see the fruit come to the ground, in season?" Does not the plant, know the season? And knowing the season, does it not produce the fruit? The point is: the kind of beginning we pursue, determines what we shall eat. It does not mean fruit will fall from another tree! The science of "time" does not create "space", the science of "space" does not create "meaning", the science of "meaning" does not create "difference". All these things are confusions of turning to the one tree, as if it will produce "all" fruit.

There is more that I could say, but I want a simple understanding of this. The wait we do at the beginning of our meditation, is less than the wait at its end. We must be mindful of this. Calculating that we will be able to do something about the fruit of our endeavour in time, when we do nothing but reinvent our reasons for being there, is a distraction to the purity and simplicity with which we conduct our patience before God - for who can hold us to account for our patience, than One who created "patience"? And why would we credit it to ourselves, if we wanted to truly share in His Glory?

Learn from this, consider this - it is the reason Man shares stories, and also how they undo him.
Why do you assume there was ever a beginning?
 
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And that makes what you are saying nonsense.

Creation as found in the Bible is a six day process. There are no millions of years of dead and suffering.

God created a perfect world part of the universe in six periods of 24 hours.

To believe in evolution one has to term the meaning of words upside down and inside out.
There is no justification in the Bible for believing in evolution.
To know that it's through Evolution that God creates new life forms all one has to do is to listen to what Creation itSelf is showing us through the Earth. As I wrote previously, it is nakedly authentic. The Earth can not lie.
 
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Ophiolite

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Creation as found in the Bible is a six day process. There are no millions of years of dead and suffering.
Creation as found in the rocks of the planets and the stars of the sky is a process of many billions of years. Scripture is writ small. The universe is writ large. When many scriptural passages are best understood as rich in metaphor then there is no conflict between Scripture and the Words of the World. Your insistence on the literal introduces destructive tension between the two.

God created a perfect world part of the universe in six periods of 24 hours.
Unfotunately the Apologetics Section has been shut down, so we cannot discuss in depth the question that your statement brings to mind: how can a pefect world, made by a perfect God, suffer failure?
 
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Gottservant

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how can a perfect world, made by a perfect God, suffer failure?

Your assumption is that God deals with all suffering, rather than allow some of it.

If God allows some suffering, what is there to prevent something perfect, suffering perfectly?

When your joy is in the Lord, you don't have a problem with suffering, perfect or not.
 
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Gottservant

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Why do you assume there was ever a beginning?

Do I assume it? I assume I was questioning it...

You make a point, that you can chose "no beginning" - but you don't stop and die, because you stopped thinking about it.

Something was there in the beginning, I just don't believe it was something specific (hence Genesis talking of "the Spirit of God hovering over the waters of the deep" (from memory)?)
 
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Ophiolite

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Your assumption is that God deals with all suffering, rather than allow some of it.

If God allows some suffering, what is there to prevent something perfect, suffering perfectly?

When your joy is in the Lord, you don't have a problem with suffering, perfect or not.
You would be best to take that up with @Tolworth John who appears to feel that suffering is not present in a perfect world. See below.
Creation as found in the Bible is a six day process. There are no millions of years of dead and suffering.

God created a perfect world part of the universe in six periods of 24 hours.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Your assumption is that God deals with all suffering, rather than allow some of it.

If God allows some suffering, what is there to prevent something perfect, suffering perfectly?

When your joy is in the Lord, you don't have a problem with suffering, perfect or not.
So it can still be a perfect world as long as the imperfections are perfect... :rolleyes:
 
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Ken-1122

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Do I assume it? I assume I was questioning it...
You were presupposing it, and questioning the presupposition.
make a point, that you can chose "no beginning" - but you don't stop and die, because you stopped thinking about it.
What is there to think about, if there is no beginning?
Something was there in the beginning, I just don't believe it was something specific (hence Genesis talking of "the Spirit of God hovering over the waters of the deep" (from memory)?)
If something has always existed, how could there be a beginning? Unless you are referring to the beginning of a specific thing (which would need to be part of the original question).
 
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Gene2memE

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And that makes what you are saying nonsense.

Creation as found in the Bible is a six day process. There are no millions of years of dead and suffering.

God created a perfect world part of the universe in six periods of 24 hours.

To believe in evolution one has to term the meaning of words upside down and inside out.
There is no justification in the Bible for believing in evolution.

Nature is not obligated to line up with the stories presented in your holy book. Evolution is just a description of our observations about the natural world.
 
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Gottservant

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What is there to think about, if there is no beginning?

That's what I am saying!

Why do we talk about the beginning, as if that is some sort of insight?

I mean its all well and good if you are at the traffic lights and the lights begin with red, that means you have to wait.

But why would you then say "ah! traffic lights, that means red!" - that seems to be an oversimplification of a much more complicated process.

Meanwhile, Evolutionists do exactly that (and it is infuriating); why do they think we (the faithful) contend with them over concepts like "irreducible complexity"?
 
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