What's the Filioque controversy all about?

[GodsGrace101]

not the unbegotteness of the Father, and not the procession of the Holy Spirit. that's about all.

You said this in post 55:
when regarding the Trinity, all we know is the unbegotten Father, the begottenness of the Son, and procession of the Spirit are distinct. but any deeper than that and we are running into dangerous territory.

I believe we could pursue this since the thread is on the question of the filioque...
You said
The Father is unbegotten
The Son is begotten
The Spjirit proceeds

Regarding the Son only....
Please explain what YOU mean by
"The Son is Begotten".

I know there are persons reading along that do not understand this word begotten.

Thanks...

P.S. I understand that begotten only means unique...and DOES NOT mean "gotten" in any way since the 2nd person of the Trinity always existed.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You said this in post 55:
when regarding the Trinity, all we know is the unbegotten Father, the begottenness of the Son, and procession of the Spirit are distinct. but any deeper than that and we are running into dangerous territory.

I believe we could pursue this since the thread is on the question of the filioque...
You said
The Father is unbegotten
The Son is begotten
The Spjirit proceeds

Regarding the Son only....
Please explain what YOU mean by
"The Son is Begotten".

I know there are persons reading along that do not understand this word begotten.

Thanks...

P.S. I understand that begotten only means unique...and DOES NOT mean "gotten" in any way since the 2nd person of the Trinity always existed.

I did. we don't know what the begotteness is. we only know that it's not the unbegotteness of the Father or the procession of the Spirit. anything more is only known to God Himself.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I did. we don't know what the begotteness is. we only know that it's not the unbegotteness of the Father or the procession of the Spirit. anything more is only known to God Himself.

Thanks.
I like to go to the ECFs when I have questions.
I found this site to be very interesting....
Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God | Stand to Reason

The ECFs called Jesus the Son of God, but they also referred to Him as God. I just wish the word begotten was never discovered....

Blessings

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks.
I like to go to the ECFs when I have questions.
I found this site to be very interesting....
Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God | Stand to Reason

The ECFs called Jesus the Son of God, but they also referred to Him as God. I just wish the word begotten was never discovered....

Blessings

the word begotten is from Scripture...

 

[GodsGrace101]

the word begotten is from Scripture...

Agreed. What I'm saying is that I wish the word didn't exist. Many use it to show that Jesus is not God,,, that He is less than the Father...the JWs are one group that does this.

I like this link also...
Only Begotten Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

 

[ArmyMatt]

Agreed. What I'm saying is that I wish the word didn't exist. Many use it to show that Jesus is not God,,, that He is less than the Father...the JWs are one group that does this.

I like this link also...
Only Begotten Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

well, you gotta take that up with Christ.

 

[Philip_B]

Agreed. What I'm saying is that I wish the word didn't exist. Many use it to show that Jesus is not God,,, that He is less than the Father...the JWs are one group that does this.

I like this link also...
Only Begotten Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

without begetting the human race would cease to exist!

 

[GodsGrace101]

without begetting the human race would cease to exist!

What do you mean?
What does "begetting" mean to you?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What do you mean?
What does "begetting" mean to you?

I think it's pretty clear what he means if you look at Genesis, Matthew, and Luke.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I think it's pretty clear what he means if you look at Genesis, Matthew, and Luke.

No. I don't know what's in the other person's mind.
I'd like to know why if we didn't beget the human race would end.

I'd like to know from @Philip_B what it means to HIM.
To me it sounds like he's talking about begetting babies.

 

[ArmyMatt]

No. I don't know what's in the other person's mind.
I'd like to know why if we didn't beget the human race would end.

I'd like to know from @Philip_B what it means to HIM.
To me it sounds like he's talking about begetting babies.

why do you think I brought up those specific books of the Bible?

 

[GodsGrace101]

why do you think I brought up those specific books of the Bible?

I don't know.
Genesis begets
Mathew and Luke tell the story of Jesus birth
I can't know what you have in mind....

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't know.
Genesis begets
Mathew and Luke tell the story of Jesus birth
I can't know what you have in mind....

Matthew and Luke also have genealogies

 

[GodsGrace101]

Matthew and Luke also have genealogies

Oh. OK.
What I'm saying is that the word BEGOT is very confusing to us in this day and age.
We tend to believe that it means that man "begot" a baby, for instance.

I just think it was a very wrong word to use in the Creeds..it makes is sound like Jesus was MADE by the Father. As if Jesus did not always exist.

The creed even says:
Eternally begotten
NOT MADE
one in being with the Father...

To many today, the above sounds like a contradiction.

I'm not speaking here specifically about the Filoque.
I also agree from a Catholic point of view that The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and NOT the Father and Son. Catholicism teaches the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son and sometimes I think it was done on purpose to be different from the Orthodox church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh. OK.
What I'm saying is that the word BEGOT is very confusing to us in this day and age.
We tend to believe that it means that man "begot" a baby, for instance.

I just think it was a very wrong word to use in the Creeds..it makes is sound like Jesus was MADE by the Father. As if Jesus did not always exist.

The creed even says:
Eternally begotten
NOT MADE
one in being with the Father...

To many today, the above sounds like a contradiction.

I'm not speaking here specifically about the Filoque.
I also agree from a Catholic point of view that The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and NOT the Father and Son. Catholicism teaches the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son and sometimes I think it was done on purpose to be different from the Orthodox church.

that's because there is a difference between created begetting in time, and the Son being eternally begotten outside of time.

 

[Andrei D]

What I'm saying is that the word BEGOT is very confusing to us in this day and age.
We tend to believe that it means that man "begot" a baby, for instance.

I just think it was a very wrong word to use in the Creeds..it makes is sound like Jesus was MADE by the Father. As if Jesus did not always exist.

Not sure there is a good reason in getting stuck over the specific word "begotten". It's just a fancy word in English. In Greek it says born (γεννηθέντα). In Romanian it says born (născut). In Russian it says born (рожденного).

So, yes, born like a baby. Only that it is before time begins so there is no way you can apply your time-bound logic to it and infer that "there was a time Christ didn't exist". He was born BEFORE time existed. In fact even this sentence is wrong, because the verb tenses make no sense before time begins.

The whole point of the word is to oppose it to made/created. That is why the word is used and how the word is used: born not made, born not created. We cannot hope to understand the intimate process by which Christ is born of God. That is not given to us. What we need to understand is that there is an explicit difference between Christ compared to everything else that was created.

 

[GodsGrace101]

that's because there is a difference between created begetting in time, and the Son being eternally begotten outside of time.

I learned that begotten just means that Jesus is unique. The one and only Son...but still God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Not sure there is a good reason in getting stuck over the specific word "begotten". It's just a fancy word in English. In Greek it says born (γεννηθέντα). In Romanian it says born (născut). In Russian it says born (рожденного).

So, yes, born like a baby. Only that it is before time begins so there is no way you can apply your time-bound logic to it and infer that "there was a time Christ didn't exist". He was born BEFORE time existed. In fact even this sentence is wrong, because the verb tenses make no sense before time begins.

The whole point of the word is to oppose it to made/created. That is why the word is used and how the word is used: born not made, born not created. We cannot hope to understand the intimate process by which Christ is born of God. That is not given to us. What we need to understand is that there is an explicit difference between Christ compared to everything else that was created.

I like your last sentence....Jesus is unique.

In Italian the Creed says:
Generato, non creato...

This means (as I'm sure you can tell) that Jesus was generated from God...not created by God...that somehow He comes OUT OF GOD...just as you've stated.

I understand this and persons that have studied at all and have studied the Trinity understand this...

What I'm saying is that it's very confusing to someone that has not...I always had problems explaining this to "new" learners...they always think in terms of begetting...like having a baby. It takes some time to sink in and for some it never really does. ONE IN BEING WITH THE FATHER...

Yes. We can't go any further than this....
Thanks! to you and @ArmyMatt .

 

[ArmyMatt]

I learned that begotten just means that Jesus is unique. The one and only Son...but still God.

it does when it refers to the fact that He is God's only Son by nature.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Jesus is of course the only Son of God the Father.

However, a man can beget many sons/children ... it doesn't actually imply unique or only.

It's just that Jesus is the only, Jesus is unique, and His "begottenness" is also unique in that it is not like humans begetting their children.