WHATS THE DEAL ABOUT MRS ELLEN G WHITE??

[JojotheBeloved]

I keep forgetting is it 30,000 pages of manuscripts from those dreams and visions - or 50,000?

"The Ellen G. White Estate today owns approximately 8,300 typed documents from Ellen White comprising about 50,000 pages of letters and manuscripts dating from 1845 to 1915. Many of these documents were used by her in publications during her lifetime. Others were private and family letters. Of the 50,000 pages approximately 30,000 were left to the Trustees named by Ellen White in her Last Will and Testament and their successors, for use in preparing compilations as well as for other future needs as they arose in the church. The other 20,000 pages consist of personal family letters"

A clarification for anyone who may have misunderstood my previous statement that Mrs. White only had a few visions. It is true that her visions and experiences were used in some of her writing. Her thorough study of Scripture, however, was the basis for the majority of her books and writings. Note also that personal letters are among her extensive writings, which contain a variety of advice and other correspondence. Nothing in the quoted statement regarding the Ellen White Estate posted by BobRyan claims any particular content among her many publications. It merely states there are many publications in her name both written and published by her during her lifetime and later compiled and published by the Ellen White Estate after her death. This is also something I alluded to in my original post saying she is an extensively published writer of devotional material. I hope that helps, in case anyone was confused.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I agree JoJo... her visions were not common but her inspiration was... on many subjects as you said. I find the same error people make in regard to her writings against the papacy... they are there, to be sure, but do not make up even 1% of what she wrote.

 

[BobRyan]

A clarification for anyone who may have misunderstood my previous statement that Mrs. White only had a few visions. It is true that her visions and experiences were used in some of her writing. Her thorough study of Scripture, however, was the basis for the majority of her books and writings. Note also that personal letters are among her extensive writings, which contain a variety of advice and other correspondence

True. 20,000 out of the 50,000 are personal letters.

 

[BobRyan]

I posted a fact provided by the White Estate - those facts do not change simply because a given person may not find them useful in promoting a certain POV.

Not meant to be a debate - just stating the facts.

And I am pretty sure that all readers of the thread would agree there are not "two Holy Spirits" - one to inspire Bible writers and another one to inspire non-Bible writers.

The difference between a Bible writing prophet like David - and a non-bible writing prophet like Nathan - is not God, is not "more error in what God tells Nathan" etc - the difference is 'the Purpose of God'.

God intended David's writing to be scripture for all mankind. And Nathan's messages were specific to Israel.

 

[JojotheBeloved]

The difference between a Bible writing prophet like David - and a non-bible writing prophet like Nathan - is not God, is not "more error in what God tells Nathan" etc - the difference is 'the Purpose of God'.

God intended David's writing to be scripture for all mankind. And Nathan's messages were specific to Israel.

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure I clearly understand what you're intending to communicate here.

 

[BobRyan]

I think we all agree that -

1. We do not believe in many gods - just the one Triune Godhead -
2. We do not believe that the Holy Spirit handed off His work to some "man" or "woman" so that they are their own source of inspiration -- while Bible writers have God as their source of inspiration.
3. Philip's daughters, Anna in the temple, Aggabus, Nathan etc all had the 'same God' as their source of inspiration - as did David.
4. Numbers 12:6 applies to all of them - that is how prophets get their messages. Bible writer or not. There is only "1" gift of prophecy.
5. For that reason alone (reason number 4) - 1 Cor 12 and Ephesians 4 places the gift of prophecy ahead of evangelists, pastors and teachers. And notice there is no such thing in 1 Cor 12 as "Bible writing prophet" vs 'non-bible writing prophet' that is being placed ahead of evangelists, pastors and teachers.
6. For these reasons - the "test of a prophet" includes always having correct doctrine for statements claimed to have come from "infallible God."

Inspired writing does not 'differ' by "what God or person inspired it" - it is all from the same God.

But God can choose the intended audience for it - the scope for it.

 

[JojotheBeloved]

...it is all from the same God.

But God can choose the intended audience for it - the scope for it.

With this statement I agree.

 

[grandvizier1006]

I don't get why SDAs are so willing to take the words of a mortal, sinful woman. She isn't some holy figure, she just made stuff up, wrote about it and called it a "prophecy". I don't like the idea of a denomination centering around a person other than Christ.

 

[JojotheBeloved]

I don't get why SDAs are so willing to take the words of a mortal, sinful woman. She isn't some holy figure, she just made stuff up, wrote about it and called it a "prophecy". I don't like the idea of a denomination centering around a person other than Christ.

I hear your point... but the denomination is centered on Christ. The reason Mrs. White is respected within the denomination is because she continually directed and redirected our church back to Christ. It is true that some within the denomination abuse the use of her writings and insights. There are some who do make her sound larger than life. But the denomination as a whole does not put her above the Bible, nor above Christ. Christ is the center of all SDA Belief. If this comes to a point where it is no longer true, the denomination would fail to continue to be Adventist. As the name "Seventh-day Adventist" in itself points us to Christ's second Advent.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't get why SDAs are so willing to take the words of a mortal, sinful woman.

That is the same thing many atheists tell us about accepting the Bible and the fact that God has inspired prophets all through history.

Other religions claim that Christianity is centering around the writings of Bible writers. We keep trying to tell them that the Bible has very specific things to say about the 1 Cor 12 "gift of prophecy" -- but it is sometimes hard to get people to sit down and look at that subject as the Bible teaches it.

 

[BobRyan]

Those who don't like the messages God gave his prophets all through history - or that don't like the messages He gave to one in the 19th and 20th century -- should take a few minutes to read at least a little to see that message first.

The Bible says not to reject God's prophets.
========================

Some very quick and short examples of inspired writing in harmony with the 1Cor 12 and 1cor 14:1 Bible doctrine on inspiration.

1. Christ's crucifixion - Apr 3, 2015 #1
2. Christ in Gethsemane - Mar 31, 2015 #1
3. The Resurrection of Christ - Apr 1, 2015 #1
4. Events at the Birth of Christ - Thursday at 12:58 PM #1
5. Events at the Birth of Christ - Thursday at 12:58 PM #1
6. Compare different examples on the life of Christ - the Pope, and also "Desire of Ages" Thursday at 12:43 PM #130


End Time events – Last things:
1. Eye witness account of the still-future second coming event. Friday at 9:40 PM#73
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc40.html
2. What about infants – at the resurrection? 2 minutes ago#13
3. Lake of Fire events 8 minutes ago #1572
4 minutes ago #1573
1 minute ago #1574


ORIGINS
1. The Creation , Adam and Eve in Eden- 23 minutes ago #1404
2. Satan and his angel after their fall 20 minutes ago #1405
3. Demons plot the fall of man 19 minutes ago #1407
4. Temptation and fall 15 minutes ago #1408
5. Eve becomes Tempter 14 minutes ago #1409
6. Adam is shown Gospel future 7 minutes ago #1410



THE FLOOD
1. Warning mankind and Building the ark 3 minutes ago #1412
2. The flood – the Storm Breaks - 4 minutes ago #1413[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

Give me the Bible - AND the words IN the Bible.

For example - when it comes to the Bible doctrine on prophets.

1Cor 12
, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they?


Eph 4
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.


1 John 3
3 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness

1Cor 14
1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints..

1 Thess 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances.


Eph 4: 30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Is 63:10 But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.


1 Cor 10

5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up toplay.” 8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.



Is 30
For this is a rebellious people, false sons,
Sons who refuse to listen
To the instruction of the Lord;
10 Who say to the seers, “You must not see visions”;
And to the prophets, “You must not prophesy to us what is right,
Speak to us pleasant words,
Prophesy illusions.
11 “Get out of the way, turn aside from the path,
Let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.”
12 Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel,
“Since you have rejected this word
And have put your trust in oppression and guile, and have relied on them,
13 Therefore this iniquity will be to you
Like a breach about to fall,


2Chron 20:20 “put your trust in His prophets and you will succeed”

 

[grandvizier1006]

And how do you know that Ellen White was correct? The Bible warns of false prophets.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

And how do you know that Ellen White was correct? The Bible warns of false prophets.

The Bible also gives us ways to identify a true prophet...

 

[Ubuntu]

And how do you know that Ellen White was correct? The Bible warns of false prophets.

Non-adventists often use the “false prophet” card against Ellen White… They've perhaps googled her name and found one of the multiple websites out there who dismiss Ellen White. Then they have a glance at the denunciations, and they quickly conclude that Ellen White was a false prophet.

Very few non-adventists actually take the time to read Ellen White themselves. If they did, they would find out that she was a writer who constantly uplifted Christ, and who has a very deep knowledge of the gospel. I've read many protestant classics, but Ellen White is in a league of her own… Why are Christians so quick to denounce a person who wrote things like this:

“Jesus did not suppress one word of truth, but He uttered it always in love. He exercised the greatest tact and thoughtful, kind attention in His intercourse with the people. He was never rude, never needlessly spoke a severe word, never gave needless pain to a sensitive soul. He did not censure human weakness. He spoke the truth, but always in love. He denounced hypocrisy, unbelief, and iniquity; but tears were in His voice as He uttered His scathing rebukes. He wept over Jerusalem, the city He loved, which refused to receive Him, the way, the truth, and the life.”

If you really want to know if Ellen White was a prophet or not, begin by reading her (very short) book called “Steps to Christ” that I quoted from above. You can download it for free as an ebook/pdf, or just look it up on Amazon if you want a physical copy.

'Steps to Christ' downloads:
PDF
ePub
Mobi (Kindle)

 

[BobRyan]

And how do you know that Ellen White was correct? The Bible warns of false prophets.

Good point. 1 John 4 says to "test the prophets" it does not say "reject all prophets".

The bible says to accept God's prophets and reject false prophets.

"To the Law and the testimony if they speak not according to this word - there is no light in them" Is 8:20

So then the first question to be answered is whether the doctrine that Ellen White claimed God was approving - is correct according to scripture.

But often those who are opposing Ellen White - have no interest in such a test.

 

[mmksparbud]

With all this said I will add my usual:
As she herself said she was not infallible, she is not our "Pope", we read her writings, and believe in her abilities, but we follow Christ and the bible and she always pointed to Him. All things considered as far as our doctrines go---if you toss her out the window and do not believe in her as a prophet of God---it would in no way diminish our stand on the state of the dead, on the immortality of the soul, on the Sabbath day, on an everlasting burning hell, that Jesus is our High Priest, our believes in these subjects come from the bible and stand on the bible not on her writings. Without her we would still be SDA. Our believes are also not unique to our church alone--other denominations believe in the Sabbath, do not believe in an everlasting burning hell, or the immortality of the soul and they did not get those ideas from her but from the bible. There are atheists who believe in vegetarianism and other health issues most Hindus in fact are mostly vegetarian, Muslims do not believe in alcohol or pork, and many others. God instituted a way of eating with the Jews and said if they obeyed He would not give them the diseases of the Egyptians. He created us, He knows what is best for us and study after study has proved this to be the case. It has been shown that we, and those who live as we do, live longer and are healthier in our lifetime than average. God wants our minds and bodies healthy not only for our own enjoyment, but so that we may work better and longer for Him. My aunt was a devout SDA all her life, lived to be over 100 and up until the last few months, walked 3 miles a day and was clear headed. I left the church for many years and have not followed the health principles and have paid the price. Other family members who followed the health principles ended up like her, those of us who didn't, ended up like me. At 37, and my strongest, and she at 81, she could out perform me. Whether you believe in her as a prophet or not---our believes stand without her for they are from the bible As a child I did not like her, I read her stuff simply because I was a reader and read everything in sight, but as soon as I left home I left the church. It was only after I came back to God and started researching every religion out there again ( I had to research them all in high school)that I came back to SDA as I could not reconcile another faith with the word of God and I reread her writings and got to appreciate them and understand them better after having been out there and in total rebellion and anger against God and everything He wanted. Personally---I do believe she was a prophet of God, but even if she were proven beyond doubt to not be one---my believes about all these subjects would remain the same as they rest on the bible, not her.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Great points on the pillars of our faith...

 

[Dave-W]

Good point. 1 John 4 says to "test the prophets" it does not say "reject all prophets".

The bible says to accept God's prophets and reject false prophets.

Dr Derek Prince wrote a pamphlet back in the 1970s on "How to Judge Prophecy." It outlines the scriptural basis for judging.

http://www.amazon.com/How-judge-prophecy-Derek-Prince/dp/B0006XKDU8

Here is an outline someone made from that pamphlet:

Nine Steps in Judging Prophecy From “How to Judge Prophecy” by Derek Prince

1) The end purpose of all true prophecy is to build up, to admonish and to encourage the people of God
1 Corinthians 14:3, 2 Corinthians 10:8, 13:10 - authority is given to build up, not tear down.

a) Edification - to build up
b) Exhortation - admonition, stirs up
c) Comfort - encouragement, lifts up

2) All true prophecy always agrees with the letter and the Spirit of scripture.
2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.”

3) All true prophecy centers in Jesus Christ it, exalts and glorifies Him alone.

a) John 16:13-14 “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.”
b) Revelation 19:10 “At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

4) True prophecy produces fruit in character and conduct that agrees with the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

a) Matthew 7:15-16 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but
b) inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick
c) grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles?”
d) Romans 14:17 “The kingdom of God is.... righteousness, peace and joy int eh Holy Spirit.”
i) Read the following scriptures: Ephesians 5:9; Galatians 5:22-23

5) If a prophetic revelation contains predications concerning the future, are these prediction

a) fulfilled? If not ,the revelation does not come from the Holy Spirit Deuteronomy
b) 18:20-22 OT prophets were stoned to death if the prophecy did not come to pass.


6) Even correct predictions are not proof, if the prophecy draws others away from obedience. Read Deuteronomy 13:1-5; Acts 8:9-11, 16:16-18

7) True prophecy given by the Holy Spirit produces liberty not bondage.

a) Romans 8:15 warns against the “spirit of bondage”
b) 1Corinthians 14:33 God is not the author of confusion
c) 2 Timothy 1:7 God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, of love and of sound mind.
d) Be discerning about “directive” prophecy of spiritual dictators: Matthew 23:8 “But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.”

8) True prophecy given by the Holy Spirit produces life, not death.
2 Corinthians 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the
letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

9) True prophecy is attested by the Holy Spirit within each believer who hears it
1 John 2:27 “..The anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need
anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing
is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.”

 

[BobRyan]

That is a good list - yet most often God's prophets are flatly rejected by his own church as we see in both OT and NT.