What's the basis for purgatory?

[Hoonbaba]

Hi everyone,

So far, this is the one thing that I don't know if I can agree with: Purgatory.

What's the Catholic definition of it?

And where's the biblical basis for it (not including the apocrypha)?

God bless!

-Jason

 

[patriarch]

Hoonbaba,

First of all, read Purgatory for Everyone by Jerry L. Walls, professor of Philosophy of Religion at Asbury Theological Seminary. Asbury is not a Catholic seminary. This wonderful article was published in the April issue of First Things.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0204/articles/walls.html

 

[isshinwhat]

1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Isaiah 6:5-7 And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven."

Purgatory is where we are cleansed of all the unrepented venial sins we have on our souls at death. When we build our lives upon ourselves, money, sex, food, etc. rather than Christ, we sin. Through the death and life of Christ we are able to see the Father face to face, but because no sin can stand in the presence of God, we must be cleansed of it. Purgatory is the place/state where the cleansing takes place. That place where we are saved, but through the fire. We know it is a place or state because Jesus speaks of people being forgiven in the age to come, not this current age:

Matthew 12:32
And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

It is also the prison from Christ's Gospel parable that we will remain in until we have paid the last penny.

Matthew 5:25-27
Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;
truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'

God bless,

Neal

 

[isshinwhat]

2 Samuel 12:13-14 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die."

One last thing I forgot that I overlooked for a long time. Forgiveness and punishment are two different things. The Lord chastises those whom He loves...or something along those lines

Neal

 

[Religious Crisis]

I found me and my friends talking about this very question today. We could not find any proof anywhere. Please inform me if I missed anything.

 

[jukesk9]

Hoon,

Another thing about Purgatory is that it's been believed before Christ. It wasn't called Purgatory, but the belief was there. In Judaism, when someone dies, for ll months, friends and loved ones of the deceased pray for the forgiveness of his/her sins. Christ never said to stop doing this. Even though it's a huge target for certain non-Catholics, it's such a minor thing to Catholics, IMHO. The Catechism of the Catholic Church devotes like two paragraphs to Purgatory. Archaeology and undisputed historical evidence show Christian tombs from the time of Christ with prayers for the dead inscribed on them. We're talking about people who died while the Apostles were alive. The Eastern Orthodox Church prays for the departed, yet they do not call their belief Purgatory. For a few years after Martin Luther split from the Catholic Church, he still taught Purgatory (though he later had a change of heart). Revelations sums it up by saying nothing unclean will enter Heaven.

Here's how I personally believe Purgatory works. First off, if you are able to repent of all your sins as you die, I think you'll head right to Heaven. But if you die with any unrepented venial sins, here's where I believe Purgatory comes into play. Here's one example. You're a Christian. You believe wholeheartedly in Jesus. You have faith and you strive to please the Lord. Everything's going so good that you go off and buy you that '65 Mustang and restore it. One day, you decide to take it for a spin and see how fast it will really go. You're cruising a mean 95 mph on the Interstate zipping past cars. All of a sudden, you lose control, cross the median and hit another car head on, killing all the occupants.

Murder? No. Wasn't intentional but you were reckless and in 99% of the jurisdictions, you'd be charged with negligent homicide. But, you don't live to get charged because you die too. So, sin? I most definately say yes. Mortal? No. Doesn't fit the criteria for a mortal sin and you didn't set out to kill anyone. But you did because of something really stupid. So, yea. You sinned, venially. So, does God just say, "Oh, what the heck. You accidentally killed a couple of other people but you believed in me so come on in and enjoy!" I don't believe that. Purgatory will make up for this.

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by jukesk9
Hoon,

Another thing about Purgatory is that it's been believed before Christ. It wasn't called Purgatory, but the belief was there.

Just because something was taught that long ago does not necessitate it's truthfulness.

Here's how I personally believe Purgatory works. First off, if you are able to repent of all your sins as you die, I think you'll head right to Heaven. But if you die with any unrepented venial sins, here's where I believe Purgatory comes into play.

So you are saying that Christ's atonement was not sufficent? If we must pay for our sins in purgatory then Christ died needlessly.

"The sixth word or saying that Jesus spoke from the cross was the single Greek work tetelestai which means It is finished. Papyri receipts for taxes have been recovered with the word tetelestai written across them, meaning “paid in full.” This word on Jesus’ lips was significant. When He said, “It is finished” (not “I am finished”), He meant His redemptive work was completed. He had been made sin for people (2 Cor. 5:21) and had suffered the penalty of God’s justice which sin deserved."
(The Bible Knowledge Commentary)

God Bless

 

[Wolseley]

So you are saying that Christ's atonement was not sufficent? If we must pay for our sins in purgatory then Christ died needlessly.

No, that's not what we're saying, and we never have.

What we're saying is that cleansing of venial sin in Purgatory is part of Christ's atonement---it is not an "addition to it." Christ's death on the Cross covered all sins, but that covering operates in different ways.

Belief and baptism removes original sin.

The sacrament of confession removes post-baptismal mortal and venial sin.

Purgatory removes post-death venial sin.

All of them are part of what Christ did on the Cross. It's His work, not ours.

it's also not a "work", because going to Purgatory is not something you do on your own. You go there whether you want to go or not.

 

[patriarch]

The idea of purgatory only being a place where venial sin is removed leaves aside the issue of a person's character at his death. I think this passage from late in Wall's article treats this very well:

Appealing to God’s forgiveness does nothing to address the fact that many Christians are imperfect lovers of God (and others) at the time of their death. This is not to say that the experience of being forgiven does not change us. Indeed, gratitude for God’s free offer of forgiveness is a powerful incentive for the believer to love God in return. But forgiveness alone, especially on a legal model, does not change us in a subjective sense. Consider in this light the words of C. S. Lewis, an author whose views are usually endorsed enthusiastically by evangelical Protestants.

Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy”? Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first”? “It may hurt, you know.”—“Even so, sir.”

Forgiveness alone does not eliminate unpleasant odors, and lack of condemnation does not clean up soiled clothes. Other remedies are necessary, and as Lewis suggests, they may involve pain.

 

[isshinwhat]

Originally posted by Apologist
So you are saying that Christ's atonement was not sufficent? If we must pay for our sins in purgatory then Christ died needlessly.[\quote]

Apologist,
Christ took upon himself the sins of the world, and no Catholic should argue otherwise. But... although we have been forgiven our sins, there may still be punishment due.

2 Samuel 12:13-14
David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die."

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his
body, that is, the church,

This statement by St. Paul sounds odd at first, at least it did to me, but then I realized what it meant. We participate in the life of Christ on the road to eternal life. We participate in His death in baptism, His life in the Eucharist, and his sufferings here on earth. Indeed, our sufferings have no merit on their own, but through Christ, God finds our offering of ourselves pleasing.

Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be
acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Neal

 

[isshinwhat]

Sorry about the quote mix up, I'll fix it on a different computer, this one won't let me edit...

Neal

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by isshinwhat


Purgatory is where we are cleansed of all the unrepented venial sins we have on our souls at death. When we build our lives upon ourselves, money, sex, food, etc. rather than Christ, we sin. Through the death and life of Christ we are able to see the Father face to face, but because no sin can stand in the presence of God, we must be cleansed of it. Purgatory is the place/state where the cleansing takes place. That place where we are saved, but through the fire. We know it is a place or state because Jesus speaks of people being forgiven in the age to come, not this current age:



It is also the prison from Christ's Gospel parable that we will remain in until we have paid the last penny.



God bless,

Neal

Honestly I don't find the scriptural references convincing...aren't we free in Christ (Galatians 5:1)?

Maybe I ought to read that article. At the moment, this is the only thing that I have some trouble with.

Fortunately it's not that big of a deal =)

-Jason

 

[isshinwhat]

Galatians 5:13   
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be
servants of one another... 19   Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not
inherit the kingdom of God.

We are definately free in Christ. But this freedom also allows us to submit again to slavery:

Galatians 5:1   
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

The final purification (Purgatory) is for those of us who have through weakness and not consent built our lives on things of the flesh, rather than Christ. Because they were not mortal sins we will not suffer damnation for them, but we still must be cleansed from them. 1 Cor 3:15 says we will be cleansed of them through fire. We do not say this is done without Christ, rather this is how Christ has chosen to purify us. Just as Isaiah was forgiven his sins by the coal in the hands of an angel, so shall we be cleansed of our unrepentant venial sin, and all of through the mercy granted us through Christ's passion.

in Christ,

Neal

 

[Religious Crisis]

I think that you have taken 1 Cor 3:15 out of context. In 1 cor 3 it is talking about cults and false religions. Not that sins will be burned away. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

If you can accept Confession (Reconciliation) in your heart, then Purgatory is a sort of extension of it. In Confession, we are FORGIVEN our sins; in Purgatory, we are CLEANSED of the stains of the sins upon our souls, plus we eliminate any unforgiven venial sins still upon us at the time of our death.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
We are definately free in Christ. But this freedom also allows us to submit again to slavery:

Galatians 5:1   
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

Hi Neal,

It's very clear to me that Gal 5:1 is referring to the old covenant rituals and such. In fact that's what Paul was addressing to the Galatian church. I think Gal 5:1 is a reiternation of Gal 4:9:

But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? (Gal 4:9)

Contextually, Galatians 5:1 is referring to the old covenant rituals and such. Verse 3 says it very clearly.

-Jason

 

[pax]

2 Maccabees 12:39-46

39On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.
40
But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.
41
They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.
42
7 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Hope it helps

 

[jukesk9]

Apologist,

When He said, “It is finished” (not “I am finished”), He meant His redemptive work was completed.

That's where we disagree. I say that "It is finished" refers to the Passover and that the Eucharist is now instituted in place of the Passover. After he took a drink from the Hyssop branch (the 4th Cup), he said "It is finished." He fulfilled the Passover as the sacrificial lamb.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by jukesk9
Apologist,



That's where we disagree. I say that "It is finished" refers to the Passover and that the Eucharist is now instituted in place of the Passover. After he took a drink from the Hyssop branch (the 4th Cup), he said "It is finished." He fulfilled the Passover as the sacrificial lamb.

Hi Jukesk9,

Do all Catholics agree with your statement? I'm just curious =)

I wouldn't agree with "It is finished" referring to the work of redemption, as well, since the following soteriological benefits were yet unfulfilled and undelivered at the time of the apostle's writing their epistles:

* Salvation (Romans 13:11, 1 Peter 1:5, Heb 9:28, Heb 10:36-39, Rom. 8:24-25, Rev 12:10, Rom 5:10-11, Acts 15:11, Matt 10:22, 1 Thess 5:8) * Eternal Life (1 Tim 6:19, Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7, Luke 18:30, Jude 1:21, 1 John 2:25, Col 3:3-4) * Entrance into the Kingdom (2 Pet 1:11) * Redemption (Luke 21:28, 1 Tim 2:6, Eph 4:30, Titus 2:13-14) * The Ransom ( 1 Tim 2:6) * Righteousness by Faith (Gal 5:5; Gal 2:17) * Grace (1 Pet 1:13) * Becoming Christ's Body and partakers with him (Heb 3:6,14) * The New Covenant Temple of God (Heb 3:6, Eph 2:19-22, 1 Peter 2:5) * The Adoption of the sons of God (Romans 8:23-25, Rom 8:19) * The blotting out of sins (Acts 3:19, Heb 8:13) * The inheritance in Heaven (1 Pet 1:3-4) * The inheritance of the promises of Abraham (Heb 6:11-12, Heb 10:36-39) * The End of the Old Testament Age and Law of Moses (Heb 10:9 taken along with Heb 8:13; 2 Cor 3:6-12; 1 Cor 15:56; Matt 5:17-19) * The Transfer of Shekinah Glory to the Church-Temple (2 Thess 1:10, Col 3:4, Romans 8:16-19, Titus 2:13-14, 1 Pet 5:1, 1 Pet 4:13-14, Romans 5:2, Col 1:27, Matt 13:43, Rev 21:11, Eph 5:27, Col 1:22, 1 Tim 2:6)

But of course I'm a full preterist and I believe all of it was granted to the church in 70 AD at the fall of Jerusalem =)

-Jason

 

[VOW]

To Jason:

Find Scott Hahn's lecture on "The Feast of the Lamb," (I THINK that's the name) where he talks about the Covenantal relationship. That man did an extensive study on Hebrew covenants, and the result of his research is what pulled him into the Catholic Faith! Jesus's last drink of wine on the Cross fulfilled the Covenant of the Passover.


Peace be with you,
~VOW