What's so bad about condoms?

JoabAnias

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With all due respect, far brighter bulbs than you struggle to really understand this teaching, and many never do.

How is that respectful? and

How does that answer the question that was asked?

Thats not even logical. Its just an emotional knee jerk reaction.

Is it to much to ask for objectivity in this forum?

Maybe being stupid like me, as you infer, is a good thing as I understand NFP completely.

Perhaps your assessment of a bulbs brightness is a bit off.
 
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EmbattledBunny

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How is that respectful?

You are not to my knowledge a theologian of any repute, but some who are have struggled openly to fully understand this teaching. Stating as much is not intended to be disrespectful. There is a reason that ToB is not a 2 page book. The fact that you think that anything you've posted (or the Catechism alone) is sufficient to understand the subject matter is indicative that you either do not understand the subject matter or you understand it better than Pope John Paul II did and are able to speak to it much more succinctly. I've read what he wronte. I've read what you wrote. My conclusions? Well....sorry.
 
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Winter

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NFP still allows God's will to be done. You can try to suppress pregnancy but if God wills pregnancy to happen it can at least be feasible with NFP. A condom suppresses that from happening - although God is powerful enough that I suppose he can make a condom faulty so His will is done. But maybe God likes working within His own natural creation rather than trying to waste time dealing with man-made condoms? :sorry: I don't know.

Interestingly the Duggers (who are not Catholic at all) support this approach - they don't believe in birth control and want to leave things in God's hands. BUT I don't think THEY even practice NFP. But they are a whole other story.
 
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Vendetta

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This is one that I have a terrible time trying to understand. Most Catholic teachings I can completely understand, but this is one of the ones that I have to take on faith. It just seems that in the past it was beneficial to have as many children as possible. That is no longer the case. It is very hard to have many children and support them. On top of this, most arguments concerning condoms vs NFP seem completely ludicrous. I was not aware before reading this thread that NFP was not supposed to be used for the same purpose as condoms. That clears up quite a number of problems. Still, sex is a renewal of the marital covenant. If one (or two, I suppose) cannot afford more children, then they should not renew the marital covenant at all? That seems sketchy. It is there for unity just as much as for procreation.

It is a difficult teaching.
 
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ebia

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the gospel according to st.matthew
13:13-14
[13] Therefore do I speak to them in parables: because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. [14] And the prophecy of Isaias is fulfilled in them, who saith: By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand: and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive
Thanks. That's a big help. :(
 
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JoabAnias

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You are not to my knowledge a theologian of any repute, but some who are have struggled openly to fully understand this teaching.

It doesn't take being a theologian to understand the Church teaching.

Where did I ever say I have "struggled openly to fully understand this teaching"?

Stating as much is not intended to be disrespectful. There is a reason that ToB is not a 2 page book. The fact that you think that anything you've posted (or the Catechism alone) is sufficient to understand the subject matter is indicative that you either do not understand the subject matter or you understand it better than Pope John Paul II did and are able to speak to it much more succinctly. I've read what he wronte. I've read what you wrote. My conclusions? Well....sorry.

I think you were intending to be disrespectful just from your choice of words. No matter, I don't require anyones respect. That is your choice and doesn't affect me or the truth.

There were only two paragraphs of the CCC posted here by me. I was asking about the CCC, not the ToB. Besides, the ToB is very easy to understand anyway. There is nothing hard to understand there.

You read ToB and still don't get it?

What is so hard to understand about what being open to life is?
Either you are or you aren't.

Are you unable to understand the clear wording of the CCC?

Your conclusions are what exactly? They aren't clear by any means.

We can grasp being open to life versus centered on self gratification when it comes to using ones sexual faculties within the context of a sacramental marriage. Its simple when one gets realistic.
 
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JoabAnias

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This is one that I have a terrible time trying to understand. Most Catholic teachings I can completely understand, but this is one of the ones that I have to take on faith. It just seems that in the past it was beneficial to have as many children as possible. That is no longer the case. It is very hard to have many children and support them. On top of this, most arguments concerning condoms vs NFP seem completely ludicrous. I was not aware before reading this thread that NFP was not supposed to be used for the same purpose as condoms. That clears up quite a number of problems. Still, sex is a renewal of the marital covenant. If one (or two, I suppose) cannot afford more children, then they should not renew the marital covenant at all? That seems sketchy. It is there for unity just as much as for procreation.

It is a difficult teaching.

Read the CCC section on Chastity. That might help some.
 
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JoabAnias

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Virgil the Roman

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It's like in the Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix novel when Fred and George came of age and started whipping their wands out for every little thing and apparating every couple of feet. Just because you can doesn't mean you must.

Do you not know that Harry Potter is Satanic? Such is what a German priest that was nominated for a bishopric in Austria last year was quoted to have said about that particular series. I am surprised that you would have been taken in by it. To think a "devout" young Catholic like you......tsk.......for shame! :nowords:
 
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CruciFixed

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The idea is that by using natural family planning you are not doing anything in the process of the act itself to stop conception. In other words, even if you were trying to have a baby, you would be doing nothing different if you had sex on whatever days you have it while using the natural family planning method. The Church has never said you can't have sex on certain days or that you can't have sex if you happen to be infertile due to an illness or whatever, because you are open to life in the actual process of the sex act, and it is exactly the same as what you'd be doing other more fertile days or if you were fertile in general.

What the Church is saying with condom use is that it is specifically changing what happens during the act itself versus what you'd be doing if you were open to having a child. It changes the basic process and symbolism of what is going on in some respects.

Having said that, NFP is not intended as a permanent approach, but something to be used under select circumstances. There is a question of substance as well as form, and that's why you'll notice the wording of some of the documents on the subject are conditional and don't encourage the idea of NFP for everyone or for use on an indefinite basis.

For obvious reasons, this is not the most popular stance the Church has ever taken, and it doesn't help that it's often very poorly explained. The simple explanation and talking points that are passed around often give the wrong impression because they don't get to the heart of the issue or go off on kind of a tangent. What the teaching is really getting at is kind of subtle and complex, which unfortunately is tough to convey in a soundbite, and thus beyond a lot of people's attention spans.

I'm not trying to get involved in advocating for a point of view specifically, I just thought I could shed some light on what the Church is thinking.
I understand what you are saying here and you made NFP even more clear to me than it was before thank you. :thumbsup:

I plan to use it because I am open to life but I do have circumstances that would make it a bad idea to have another child right away. I just gave birth three days ago for crying out loud! I need to space out my children for a couple years. I guess abstinence in my marriage is another option to consider.
NFP still allows God's will to be done. You can try to suppress pregnancy but if God wills pregnancy to happen it can at least be feasible with NFP. A condom suppresses that from happening - although God is powerful enough that I suppose he can make a condom faulty so His will is done. But maybe God likes working within His own natural creation rather than trying to waste time dealing with man-made condoms? :sorry: I don't know.

Interestingly the Duggers (who are not Catholic at all) support this approach - they don't believe in birth control and want to leave things in God's hands. BUT I don't think THEY even practice NFP. But they are a whole other story.
The Duggars! I'd go insane. I don't hate kids and I don't believe sex is just for genital stimulation but I would go insane with that many kids!:sorry:

Plus I am right now really poor due to some unfortunate events that occurred over the last couple of years. Going to college to try and improve upon my current situation...:o
 
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EmbattledBunny

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Where did I ever say I have "struggled openly to fully understand this teaching"?

Is the following sentence really that hard to understand for you?

"You are not to my knowledge a theologian of any repute, but some who are have struggled openly to fully understand this teaching."

I'll explain and I'll try to go slow. You are not a theologian, as far as I know. Some people are. Among them are some who have struggled openly to fully understand the Church's teachings on contraception. I never said you struggled to understand - it's my estimate that you aren't yet a place where you can admit just how little you know. It will come with time.

There were only two paragraphs of the CCC posted here by me. I was asking about the CCC, not the ToB. Besides, the ToB is very easy to understand anyway. There is nothing hard to understand there.

Things which are easy to understand don't take 2000 years of theological evolution and countless statements by Doctors of the Church, theologiand, Bishops and Popes to perfect - and they probably won;t be the same in 200 years as they are today. The Chuch's take on sexuality, and with it her views on exactly what is and is not sufficient openness to life have been evolving and becoming more perfect with time. There are Doctors of the Church who believed perodic continence was a sin...for you to say that it is easy to understand is to elevate yourself above some pretty stout minds. Have at it.

You read ToB and still don't get it?

I'm in good company.

What is so hard to understand about what being open to life is?
Either you are or you aren't.

Oh, I am. No contracepting here, no "I'll have sex with my spouse even though I voluntarily sterilized myself and can't be bothered to at least try and repair the damage I've elected to do to myself", nothing like that.

Are you unable to understand the clear wording of the CCC?

The wording? Sure. The teaching? Not completely, I still have some work to do.
 
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scraparcs

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There's a difference between understanding and accepting.

I still hate to bug priests over small stuff too. They need to be saved for big important stuff, not this.

PS: The whole birth control thing isn't an infallible teaching, so is there an issue with agreeing to disagree and just not using condoms?
 
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epiclesis

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There's a difference between understanding and accepting.

I still hate to bug priests over small stuff too. They need to be saved for big important stuff, not this.

PS: The whole birth control thing isn't an infallible teaching, so is there an issue with agreeing to disagree and just not using condoms?

The other option is to not completely agree with the church teaching, but to submit and obey it nonetheless.
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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It's like in the Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix novel when Fred and George came of age and started whipping their wands out for every little thing

I giggled.

That probably means I need to go to bed.
 
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Rebekka

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How does that answer the question?

What should you do if you don't understand the CCC?
Ask God for a bigger brain because I'm obviously too stupid to understand the CCC? :doh:
Why do you have to insult my intelligence, how does that help the discussion? There's nothing wrong with my understanding, the problem is that the doctrine is not consistent. It would be consistent if NFP was condemned as well.

No it doesn't.

NFP is always open to procreation. Its not a fool proof method of contraception. While using NFP there is always a chance to conceive which is its primary purpose so the openness to life remains. Spacing births through countenance and other methods may lessen those chances to conceive but they never take it away, thus one must remain open to life to use them honestly as intended in Church teaching
What's the difference between NFP and condoms? Condoms are not fool proof either. You're saying that the use of NFP is not sinful because it may fail - where's the logic in that? If that's an argument, every form of birth control would be allowed. Besides, some fans of NFP claim it is fool proof. When NFP is used to prevent conception there is no openness to life, other than taking the chance that it may fail - and people will do their best to prevent failure. Condoms break easily, so there's always a chance that they fail, too. Every form of birth control may fail.

If one uses un-natural contra-ception there is an assumption that conception is impossible and it usually is but even they do fail from time to time.

Where does that leave one if they conceive while believing it impossible while using contraceptives and never being open to life to start with?
Using NFP doesn't mean that one is open to life, it just means that they use a method with greater failure rates.
You assume that using NFP automatically means that the couple will welcome the unplanned child and the condom-using couple won't. But their intentions may be identical. Their method doesn't change their intention. Either couple may or may not welcome the child. In the end, when an unplanned pregnancy occurs, the condom-using couple may welcome the child just like the NFP-ing couple.
 
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JoabAnias

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Ask God for a bigger brain because I'm obviously too stupid to understand the CCC? :doh:
Why do you have to insult my intelligence, how does that help the discussion? There's nothing wrong with my understanding, the problem is that the doctrine is not consistent. It would be consistent if NFP was condemned as well.

Why do you keep taking offence where none is intended? Is that on purpose?

Can you show me where anyone said anything about your intelligence accept yourself?

What's the difference between NFP and condoms? Condoms are not fool proof either. You're saying that the use of NFP is not sinful because it may fail - where's the logic in that? If that's an argument, every form of birth control would be allowed. Besides, some fans of NFP claim it is fool proof. When NFP is used to prevent conception there is no openness to life, other than taking the chance that it may fail - and people will do their best to prevent failure. Condoms break easily, so there's always a chance that they fail, too. Every form of birth control may fail.

Your putting more words in my mouth. I'm not going any further because obviously I can't talk to you without accidentally offending you. Your not open to understanding or discussion. Every form of regulating births are not natural. Why are you asking me questions when the Church has it all spelled out for you? All I can do is show you what the Church teaches. If you cared to know you would find out.

Using NFP doesn't mean that one is open to life, it just means that they use a method with greater failure rates.
You assume that using NFP automatically means that the couple will welcome the unplanned child and the condom-using couple won't. But their intentions may be identical. Their method doesn't change their intention. Either couple may or may not welcome the child. In the end, when an unplanned pregnancy occurs, the condom-using couple may welcome the child just like the NFP-ing couple.

Thats actually not the case or what the CCC says.

I don't know if your married or have ever used NFP but apparently you have it all figured out contrary to the teaching of the Church so good bye. :wave:
 
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