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Featured What's Our Relationship With God Like?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Mar 7, 2019.

  1. If I humble myself to serve God, then I will be saved and rewarded.

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  2. Only if God humbles himself to serve me will I be saved and rewarded.

    25.0%
  1. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    Which is it?
    1. "If I humble myself to serve God, then I will be saved and rewarded."

      OR

    2. "Only if God humbles himself to serve me will I be saved and rewarded."
    Please explain your answer.
     
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  2. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    I'm not entirely sure how to answer that one ToL, I've always thought that was mutual.

    Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.(Matt. 11:29).
    Obviously God is sovereign and we are called to humble ourselves that in due time God will raise us up. Yet Christ came not to be served but to serve:

    And whoever wants to be first must be the slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:44-45)
    There is a reason Jesus washed the feet of the Apostles in the Upper Room, to set an example.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
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  3. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    Yes Jesus does set the example. But we cannot follow it until we are first cleansed by him, wouldn't you say?
     
  4. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    My position is that our relationship with God (through Christ) is based on grace. We are saved because he has humbled himself. Of course this leads us to then humble ourselves in thankful obedience. But our salvation depends upon his working for us, not our working for him.
     
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  5. Justasurvivor

    Justasurvivor Member

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    sorry you fell into that trap mark kennedy I should have posted a warning thank God it was not me
     
  6. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God has already humbled Himself (in the Incarnation/Crucifixion).

    Now it's up to us to humble ourselves to accept Him. Accepting Him is His will, and thus, is a service to Him. Such was the service that the thief on the cross rendered.

    Now, if our lives continue on longer than that of the thief, ... then there is more service for us to render. However, our salvation comes by having our hand in His hand.
     
  7. Justasurvivor

    Justasurvivor Member

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    never mind this can get interesting
     
  8. step_by_step

    step_by_step Active Member Supporter

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    I don't really like either of these options. The first implies that our obedience comes from a selfish desire to be saved and not out of love for God. The second implies that we are higher than God, requiring him to lower himself in order to save us. God humbled himself in the form of Jesus, dying for our sins to save us. So now it's up to us to humble ourselves before him out of LOVE and not out of self-ambition.

    That idea that our salvation depends on God working for us is honestly so wrong and horrifying to me. Why would God work for us? What more does he owe us? Nothing. We owe him everything and therefore it's up to US to work for our salvation along WITH our savior.

    Philippians 2:12
    ...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

    The implication that God must work for us seems selfish and sounds like it's in the area of Prosperity Gospel.
     
  9. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    So you're saying that our response of humility is based on God's first humbling himself?
     
  10. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    If we were higher than God then God would not need to lower himself to serve us. Only if God were higher than us would God need to humble himself in order to serve us. I wonder if God would be willing to do this.

    Upon which humbling does our salvation most depend?

    It was also horrifying to Peter. He said: "Lord, you will never wash my feet!"

    To say that we need God to serve us need not imply that God serves our selfish desires. It is to say that we are so fallen and broken that our only hope of salvation is God's gracious condescension.
     
  11. step_by_step

    step_by_step Active Member Supporter

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    So you're saying that we must do no work whatsoever? Because Jesus sacrificed himself, we now need to do nothing and allow God to work it out for us? Because that's what I'm gathering. Jesus died to open the way for our salvation. His death did not secure our salvation. That part is up to us. If it wasn't, if his death just automatically saved us all, there would be no Hell because everyone was saved.
    You can't just ignore the scripture that I posted. It clearly states that working our salvation falls on US. Not God.
     
  12. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    That is not at all what I'm saying, but the message of God's grace is often heard that way. Paul himself had to deal with this:

    Romans 6:15 - What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace?

    Grace changes us. Where there is no change, there is no grace. But this change is a result of God's grace, not a result of our graceless efforts.

    I actually do believe that Jesus' death secures our salvation. It doesn't simply make it possible. Jesus purchased our entire salvation on the cross. There is Hell because Jesus did not die to save everyone.

    Keep reading.

    Philippians 2:12-13 - 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
     
  13. Justasurvivor

    Justasurvivor Member

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    did you just do that no way, no way dude I NEED TO SAVE THIS
     
  14. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Traditional Western theology speaks of attrition or imperfect contrition, that is fear of hell.

    This is a useful starting place for many, but it's not the goal.

    The goal is perfect contrition, which is hatred or sorrow for our sins because we love God.
     
  15. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    Look at John 13.

    Peter's identity was: "I'm the guy who serves Jesus! I'm the guy who loves Jesus!" How did that end for Peter? Peter ended up denying Jesus and weeping bitterly in despair.

    But what's John's identity? How does he identify himself in his gospel? "The one Jesus loved."

    How do you identify yourself? Are you the one who loves Jesus? Or are you the one that Jesus loves? Which identity is most fundamental?
     
  16. icxn

    icxn Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα

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    Which begs the question, what did St John do to win Christ's affection?
     
  17. Justasurvivor

    Justasurvivor Member

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    if Jesus loved me it would mean I did things that pleased him I would feel assured because I trust his love more than my love because my heart can deceive me his heart wont deceive me
     
  18. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    Edit. Sorry I misread.

    I don't believe John won Christ's affection. I believe Jesus gave it as a gracious gift.

    1 John 4:19 - We love because he first loved us.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
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  19. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    Almost.

    Jesus loves us not because we are pleasing to him. He loves us despite our sin. It's his love that transforms us to change. Not our change that inspires his love.
     
  20. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Survives on Coffee and Whiskey

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    Do you think we can get there without first realizing how much God has done to love us?
     
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