What's going on here??

[Ioannis]

Lord, have mercy.

 

[Dorothea]

things like this desensitize the faithful to Ecumenism ...

you are right, religious leaders should not be politicians. they are there to shepherd the faithful and make us holy, not happy.

Thank you, jck. I don't think our leaders should be politicians. I'm ok wih them sending letters to government reps with regard to serious circumstances involving our Christian brethren, but other than that, I don't think it should go further than that. After reading the book on Fr. George Calciu, I think we really need to watch our Patriarchs. They can fall prey easily to power and politics.

So this SHOULD BE of great concern to us Orthodox (and I would think devout Catholics and other Christians). What does this truly lead to? As you said, a desensitized look at ecumenicism and other watering down of the faiths where secularism and relativism come into play. Apostasy then follows. I think Fr. Tom Hopko is so right on that. This is a real concern for me.

 

[Dorothea]

Well, I talked with my husband about it and my concern of the One World Religion deal, but he said this is just an effort to meet for peace, even if it's political. History shows the bishop of Rome and the Vatican have always been tied to the political issues of the state, apparently. This diplomacy should have been going on with the leaders of the countries and our current president has done nothing in that area. In fact, the last president to do anything with the Israeli and Palestinian leaders was Bill Clinton. So, they feel the need to do this to promote peace? Ok. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens in the years to come.

 

[jckstraw72]

i dont know who they think they are fooling. do they really think this will somehow lead to terrorists not being terrorists? as long as they read the Koran there will be terrorists.

 

[Protoevangel]

Is that sarcasm, Daniel?

Just a bit, to make a point, not to attack anyone. There is no defense for joining in the prayers of another faith... Not even if they do it for "political reasons".

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew to Join Pope Francis at Vatican Peace Summit | Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople

"Also at the invitation of Pope Francis, Israeli President Shimon Peres and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas will be together with the two world religious leaders to participate in intense deliberations and an interfaith invocation, which will include Muslims, Jews and Christians and aim to promote peace in the region."

An "interfaith invocation". They are invoking other gods. This is not good.

Our Holy Scriptures declare, "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either". The Muslims "accept Jesus", but only as a prophet, not as God. Jesus cannot be both God, and simultaneously "not God". Therefore the Jesus the Muslims know is not the Christ. Rejecting the Son, they thereby reject the True God. Joining in their prayer is praying to a false God. Invoking such an "interfaith god" is to invoke a demon.

That said, we do have a duty to pursue peace. It's just that this "interfaith invocation" goes too far. Obviously, the Ecumenical Patriarch disagrees. We will have to see how this works out. Lord have mercy!

 

[Ioannis]

I agree. We cannot sacrifice the Truth for peace. God is above all.

 

[Dorothea]

Just a bit, to make a point, not to attack anyone. There is no defense for joining in the prayers of another faith... Not even if they do it for "political reasons".

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew to Join Pope Francis at Vatican Peace Summit | Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople



An "interfaith invocation". They are invoking other gods. This is not good.

Our Holy Scriptures declare, "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either". The Muslims "accept Jesus", but only as a prophet, not as God. Jesus cannot be both God, and simultaneously "not God". Therefore the Jesus the Muslims know is not the Christ. Rejecting the Son, they thereby reject the True God. Joining in their prayer is praying to a false God. Invoking such an "interfaith god" is to invoke a demon.

That said, we do have a duty to pursue peace. It's just that this "interfaith invocation" goes too far. Obviously, the Ecumenical Patriarch disagrees. We will have to see how this works out. Lord have mercy!

That goes for the Jews as well. According to Elder Sophrony, they do not believe in the same God. They also reject Christ being God. I totally see your views on this and really, I tend to agree with you.

 

[isshinwhat]

i dont know who they think they are fooling. do they really think this will somehow lead to terrorists not being terrorists? as long as they read the Koran there will be terrorists.

It's not those that have been radicalized that they are trying to show a common goal with, it is the average person who is not a terrorist but may empathize with with aspects of their actions (political boundaries, common faith, etc.). For your average person it might have some short term effect.

That being said, I agree, there can be no peace without Christ. If they are saying the same prayers, that's a problem to me, so is the possibility of scandal. I believe the Patriarch is in all likelihood aware of that risk and decided that being present at a place where individuals would be offering prayers as others observed was worth the risk. In the end, the people at odds with one another do not share the same faith, but the faiths that they do profess are a huge part of the problem. It is a difficult line to walk; may the Patriarch bear that burden with grace.

 

[Protoevangel]

That goes for the Jews as well. According to Elder Sophrony, they do not believe in the same God. They also reject Christ being God. I totally see your views on this and really, I tend to agree with you.

Exactly true. This is no better, in any way, than if our Patriarch were attending a meeting where they were to sacrifice to pagan deities & idols. We all know how our Saints and Martyrs, and Canons and Hymns and Services, etc etc etc treats that.

 

[katherine2001]

It looks to me like +Patriarch Bartholomew is going to find himself isolated. I cannot believe he is getting involved with this. It's bad enough that Pope Francis is willing to do this, but what is Patriarch Bartholomew thinking to do this. That has to be a major breach of the canons. I can't imagine what the other Patriarchs are going to say about it, but I hope they speak up.

 

[Nik0s]

Meeting with the Pope is one thing, but this? I don't even know what to say to this. I defended HAH and his meeting in Jerusalem but this is going too far. Jews and Muslims reject our risen Lord! The Talmud even has a story where Jesus is described "boiling in excrement" in Hell!

 

[Dorothea]

It's not those that have been radicalized that they are trying to show a common goal with, it is the average person who is not a terrorist but may empathize with with aspects of their actions (political boundaries, common faith, etc.). For your average person it might have some short term effect.

That being said, I agree, there can be no peace without Christ. If they are saying the same prayers, that's a problem to me, so is the possibility of scandal. I believe the Patriarch is in all likelihood aware of that risk and decided that being present at a place where individuals would be offering prayers as others observed was worth the risk. In the end, the people at odds with one another do not share the same faith, but the faiths that they do profess are a huge part of the problem. It is a difficult line to walk; may the Patriarch bear that burden with grace.

I saw a picture earlier of all four of the leaders standing together, and none of them were smiling for the camera. None of them looked happy to be there, TBH.

 

[Dorothea]

Meeting with the Pope is one thing, but this? I don't even know what to say to this. I defended HAH and his meeting in Jerusalem but this is going too far. Jews and Muslims reject our risen Lord! The Talmud even has a story where Jesus is described "boiling in excrement" in Hell!

Yes, it just seems like going a bit too far. I mean, there's a side of me that thinks, why did our Patriarch do that when so many in the Church were not too comfortable with him meeting with the Pope, but then this...it's like stepping further and further closer to the edge.

 

[jckstraw72]

Yes, it just seems like going a bit too far. I mean, there's a side of me that thinks, why did our Patriarch do that when so many in the Church were not too comfortable with him meeting with the Pope, but then this...it's like stepping further and further closer to the edge.

this is precisely what happens when we justify things like the meeting in Jerusalem and convince ourselves that it's so swell - once the people find that acceptable it's just another step to the next shenanigan.

 

[Dorothea]

Exactly true. This is no better, in any way, than if our Patriarch were attending a meeting where they were to sacrifice to pagan deities & idols. We all know how our Saints and Martyrs, and Canons and Hymns and Services, etc etc etc treats that.

I'm not sure I see that drastic of a comparison - the pagan sacrifices? I don't know. But this was one step closer to really pushing things, if you will, where the Church has to acknowledge this in some way.

I do wonder like Katherine said, what the other Patriarchs have to say on this. I haven't seen or heard anything.

 

[Dorothea]

this is precisely what happens when we justify things like the meeting in Jerusalem and convince ourselves that it's so swell - once the people find that acceptable it's just another step to the next shenanigan.

That's a good point. I think many were shocked that it happened this quickly after the Jerusalem meeting. Really, I thought this was all over until 2025 at the Nicea meeting thing.

 

[Lukaris]

Pope Francis has admirably kept awareness of persecuted Christians, often focusing on the Orthodox, & helped facilitate humanitarian efforts in many places like Syria. His statements re humanity seem to truly reflect the 2 great commands & the golden rule. Regrettably, he seems to then proceed to worldly wisdom with a seeming obsession to "dialogue" with unbelievers. Within a Gospel framework it seems evident that a Christian does not assume his/her own salvation & to have hope for the salvation of the non Christian. Why is there a need to "dialogue" about unbelief? Doesn't this just cause confusion for Christians? I mean, for ex., how could I ever individually claim a Beatitude like "blessed are the merciful" but yet, not realize there are Christians & non Christians who are those who are merciful in the eyes of the Lord? On the other hand, what particulars of unbelief am I to "discuss" & perhaps legitimize? Now we are to witness & admire religious forms of unbelief? Where does this end? Why does the EP go along with this?

,

 

[rusmeister]

It looks like we have 100% consensus that this is messed up, and the EP is going to find zero support for his actions at home.

What would a Holy Synod in that Patriarchate say?

 

[GregConstantine]

do we know for sure that the Patriarch is going to actually participate in the Muslim prayers, or that he has just been invited and he is going to be present at this event?

In my work with OCF, I've been invited to events that the Muslim students hosted at which they conducted their prayers, at which I was present, but I most certainly did not participate.

Let's not jump the gun here and start making judgments about the Patriarch.

 

[GregConstantine]

I re-read the article and it said nothing, absolutely nothing about what level of participation will the patriarch have in this Muslim event.